Match-up Discussion The New Kenshi MU Chart - Prepare for Debate

[Owerbart]

Then man honestly it says a lot about the kenshis you're playing

probably. but still the only place where Kenshi never eats a TKP is in theoryland.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

probably. but still the only place where Kenshi never eats a TKP is in theoryland.

U do realize in high level I try to get hit on purpose right?

Case and point against moe's ermac I wanted meter for second round so while up 80%health to 10% I purposely jumped at him twice to give him a free lift combo. Got hit for 40%, gained 1.5 bars of meter. Won round and started round 2 fully loaded

So yea TKP will hit sometimes

 

[Zoidberg747]

Then man honestly it says a lot about the kenshis you're playing

Hes saying it outranges.

For instance, if you whiff any SC against Baraka he can blade charge it, same with TKP. If I max range blade charge or max range tkp, you cannot punish it with sc, and if you try to I get a free tkp or blade charge punish.

HOWEVER, on the flipside this is not game changing because it requires the Kenshi to whiff SC and have improper spacing. Likewise the Kenshi can just wait and make the character come within SC range, where you can no longer abuse the max ranges. The ONLY time this is effective is if you have a lifelead, because then Kenshi has to come to you or try and get in SC range.

 

[Owerbart]

U do realize in high level I try to get hit on purpose right?

Case and point against moe's ermac I wanted meter for second round so while up 80%health to 10% I purposely jumped at him twice to give him a free lift combo. Got hit for 40%, gained 1.5 bars of meter. Won round and started round 2 fully loaded

So yea TKP will hit sometimes

You are saying that the only time you fell for TKP is on purpose?

respond my PM also please.

 

[GLoRToR]

I just checked, according to frame data and theory jade vs kenshi is now 5-5 and 4-6 at worst, not 9-1

Get outta here.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

You are saying that the only time you fell for TKP is on purpose?

respond my PM also please.

Getting hit by 1-2 random TKps isn't going to make me sweat

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Hes saying it outranges.

For instance, if you whiff any SC against Baraka he can blade charge it, same with TKP. If I max range blade charge or max range tkp, you cannot punish it with sc, and if you try to I get a free tkp or blade charge punish.

HOWEVER, on the flipside this is not game changing because it requires the Kenshi to whiff SC and have improper spacing. Likewise the Kenshi can just wait and make the character come within SC range, where you can no longer abuse the max ranges. The ONLY time this is effective is if you have a lifelead, because then Kenshi has to come to you or try and get in SC range.

Exactly and the chance I screw up my spacing 10x per round is unlikely

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Why are there 4 pages on debating Kenshi vs Ermac?

I'm sure it's nice that TKP is a faster move than Flurry and Slash, but that's not going to help you much outside of luck or both of you standing at a neutral position like Pig said shouldn't be done. Plus, TKP is -17 on block, so dash SC or EX SC and goodbye.

And therein lies the problem. If you hit me, I'm full screen and that's where I WANT to be. And when I hit you, I'm full screen again. TKP does nothing at full screen, but Flurry and Slash does. While I build and build and build meter to push you away again once you start getting close again.

Of course Ermac does have options in this fight, but they are options that are wholly conditional.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

Big Deal? Jade can shadow kick a whiffed Soul Charge also. Does that make it even for her? NO
Kitana, on a well timed SC on whiff, can EX fan Punish on reaction for like a 45% combo, does that make it even or any better? NOOOO 8-2 Kenshi

Ermac still gets raped 7-3 Kenshi
Jade still gets DEMOLISHED 9.5/0.5 Kenshi

Ermac players are such a nuisance at times.
The uplaying is ridiculous. The character is a top 20 character, good character for sure.

Does he go even with Kenshi?
Hell to the facking no!

 

[GLoRToR]

Kenshi fixes required:
- Spirit moves unsafe on block by distance.
- Spirit moves 23 frames of recovery on whiff.
- Spirit moves comboing into one another on hit for 33% damage, breakable only at certain points.
- Reflect projectile 20 frames of recovery on whiff.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

Kenshi fixes required:
- Spirit moves unsafe on block by distance.
- Spirit moves 23 frames of recovery on whiff.
- Spirit moves comboing into one another on hit for 33% damage, breakable only at certain points.
- Reflect projectile 20 frames of recovery on whiff.

My fixes for Kenshi

-Blocked SC -28 + No pushback <3
-Blocked EX SC = 0 on block <3
- Remove all his armor <3
- Give him a bigger hitbox <3
- Take away his low hit <3
- Falling swords do 5% on hit and are not over heads <3
- Tele flurry = +40 more recovery frames on whiff <3
- A more fashionable outfit <3

<3 <3 <3

 

[GLoRToR]

- A more fashionable outfit <3

Armani with gucci like Cage?

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

ermac gets raped by kenshi LMAO, no questions asked, i'll play some macs with kenshi and go H.A.M. on them, kenshi wrecks him up close bcuz he has a 50 50 mixup/ ermac can't interrupt f3,2 without xray, from full screen ermac can't do any projectiles and tele is VERY risky, at midscreen mac can get a few tkps, but if i'm not mistaken, kenshi can punish a blocked tkp with ex shoulder from midscreen to send his ass back, and the main things: kenshi is safer and has ARMOR.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

@Pig Of The Hut stop listening to kinana players and cage players who think the matchup is 8-2 kenshi both are 7-3 kenshi

 

[Zoidberg747]

Big Deal? Jade can shadow kick a whiffed Soul Charge also. Does that make it even for her? NO
Kitana, on a well timed SC on whiff, can EX fan Punish on reaction for like a 45% combo, does that make it even or any better? NOOOO 8-2 Kenshi

Ermac still gets raped 7-3 Kenshi
Jade still gets DEMOLISHED 9.5/0.5 Kenshi

Ermac players are such a nuisance at times.
The uplaying is ridiculous. The character is a top 20 character, good character for sure.

Does he go even with Kenshi?
Hell to the facking no!

Its funny cause no one has said Ermac goes 5-5. I like how saying Kenshi only beats someone 6-4 is super controversial lol

(I am not commenting on the number, just stating facts. Dont kill me pig)

 

[Espio]

I still don't get how Jade sneaks into an Ermac versus Kenshi argument lol.

7-3's are still very winnable, I think people forget that aspect and in a first to 2 or first to 3 set you can definitely do it for a tourney.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I still don't get how Jade sneaks into an Ermac versus Kenshi argument lol.

7-3's are still very winnable, tough maybe, but definitely still winnable.

Exactly. 7-3 or 6-4, I will take that MU over the Baraka one anyday.

 

[Blackula]

My fixes for Kenshi

-Blocked SC -28 + No pushback <3
-Blocked EX SC = 0 on block <3
- Remove all his armor <3
- Give him a bigger hitbox <3
- Take away his low hit <3
- Falling swords do 5% on hit and are not over heads <3
- Tele flurry = +40 more recovery frames on whiff <3
- A more fashionable outfit <3

<3 <3 <3

You a funny guy Joe, lol. You got jokes don't ya!

 

[Zoidberg747]

You a funny guy Joe, lol. You got jokes don't ya!

Take away all Kenshi's spirit attacks.

Give him his sight back.

Seems fair.

 

[16 Bit]

@Pig Of The Hut stop listening to kinana players and cage players who think the matchup is 8-2 kenshi both are 7-3 kenshi

Stop upplaying Cage. Cage vs. Kenshi is ridiculous.

 

[TotteryManx]

by all means metzos, you and whoever can go create your own kenshi mu chart and put 6-4

Im just saying i think i know wtf im talking about seeing how it is ive played every ermac that plays in high level tourneys. Im making my character more OP by saying 7-3, if it were 5-5 id say 5-5.

Again I think its most logical to listen to those who have actually gone out and played these MUs offline in the highest leveled environments rather than looking at #s and playing this mu with less than avg kenshis and having less than adequate offline scenes

This post has meanie written all over it. :16Bit

 

[Zoidberg747]

Stop upplaying Cage. Cage vs. Kenshi is ridiculous.

Let him have his knee and a dream

 

[16 Bit]

Riu is a known Kitana and Cage upplayer. Nobody listen to his anti-Kitty/JC propaganda.

 

[Metzos]

Pig Of The Hut, it seems that you didnt undestand ANYTHING of what i said. I didnt disagree with your particular MU number. Even on my MU chart i have it as a possible 7 - 3 Kenshi for a long time now. I just posted that i have doubts regarding the MU being a possible 6 - 4 than 7 - 3, because if Ermac positions himself well, he doesnt struggle that much vs Kenshi, plus even a regular TKP has more range than a regular SC. If you want a better explanation SC has sweep range, TKP has mid screen to full screen range. So yeah you chip when you are at SC range and i chip you when i am outside of sweep range, which is SC's. Flurry can be dash blocked and you wont chip me at all. By the time you ll have recovered from the flurry you will have to block the projectile cause you wont be able to reflect it. Also flurry is TRUE HIGH. Which means d3 dash. I can dash block, avoid it and projectile you. Same with the overhead slash. Not hard at all. All i got in return was "I have played the best Ermac's". Sorry Pig but you havent. You have played the best Ermac's in your COUNTRY. Not in the world. And that isnt an answer suited for MU discussion my friend. Yeah i know you have traveled a lot for tournaments. In you COUNTRY again. So have i. And i've gone into another 2 countries for MK as well. So ? I didnt say anything about that. And no, i dont wanna create a Kenshi MU chart cause i fully agree with the rest of your numbers. I just have my doubts about the particular MU. You said the Ermac players you faced got FRUSTRATED after some time and started random teleporting, that means they didnt have the patience to play the MU correctly. That alone says it.

Mr. Mileena, all i have to say is next time learn to read my previous posts before jumping to conclusions. Seriously.

MITDJT, 7 - 3 Kenshi is not out of the question man. I just have my doubts regarding this MU, because if Ermac positions himself correctly he doesnt stuggle all that bad against Kenshi. Kenshi needs bars to punish a mid screen and max range TKP, take that into account as well. And yeah Kenshi might rape Ermac when he is in the corner but the same thing applies for Kenshi as well. Kenshi's hitbox also works against him when up close against Ermac. Same with Freddy. So imo atm it should be a 6-4 Kenshi with a very big possibility being 7-3 Kenshi. That is what i tried to say. Apparently no one understood that and started acting like the fucking Pope. Also EVO gathered the best of the US and the UK scenes , not the best of the entire MK community. Greece wasnt there, Poland wasnt there, France wasnt there, Russia wasnt there, Italy wasnt there etc.

 

[Metzos]

Metzos Pig Of The Hut Owerbart
The conversation you guys are having is great, and I am loving the input from you Ermacs. HOWEVER, I dont want to give my full opinion on this match up for two reasons:

1) All of my opinions about Ermac's match ups are different than the rest of the Ermac community's.
2) Im not trying to get in an argument with fellow Ermac players.

I will say this about the match up though...



I dont like it...not at all. And, having played this match up a decent amount with the world's top 2 Kenshi's Pig and Blackula (they are undoubtedly the Kenshi's of the world), I can confidently say that, at least for me, Kenshi has a higher damage output in this MU because of the massive chip damage Ermac takes while he is trying to get in. Not to mention Kenshi wins the meter building war BY FAR, leaving him with easier options of keeping you full screen. Once again, this is just my opinion. I could just be playing this match up wrong.

As far as who is the best Ermac, it remains to be seen. We need all of the very top Ermacs at one tourney and see who places the highest. Even then, there will always be doubts. I am very content w/settling with a list of top 3 Ermacs; I have no problem with that.

1) You have never discussed anything with me regarding the Ermac MU numbers, so i really dont know why you brought that up. Its not like its a top secret thing. If you did, who knows, in the end i might have agreed with your numbers. My chart, and you know my opinions about MU charts (its the same as yours if you remember), was created in order to discuss things like these.

2) Discussing MU numbers is not considered an arguement D. Its called discussion.

I dont like the MU as well. Its lame as hell and you have to be on point to even stand a chance. But when i ask why Pig thinks its a 7-3 Kenshi, cause i have some doubts, and i get back a respond of the kind "i have played the best Ermac's out there", when in reality he has played the best Ermac's of his country, that doesnt bode well to me.