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The Future Of Law Enforcement- A UMK11 Robocop Guide

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
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Robocop out-neutrals Joker? I am sorry, but are we playing the same game and the same version of the game? LOL.
Joker has very few things that even remotely contest D4 or Low shot. For D4 he has his own D4 but he still outranges that and low shot his ONLY thing to contest it is to jump which can be easily scouted out. Low shot strangles the shit out of Joker at most ranges because his tools are highs. He needs to be in F1 range to do anything significant which isnt an easy range for him to enter. He can AMP BF4 because he cant risk eat amp low shot/missile and robocop will recover in time a lot of the time in those scenarios. He cant straight shot because every trade is again, catastrophic and low shot just ignores it in general. All of Joker's fullscreen options are nullified and his midrange options are constricted due to Robocop going under highs constantly. This demands respect from Joker. The only time Joker is at advantage is when he corners Robocop. Instead of just saying some throw away thing like "are we playing the same game?" You could provide something to the conversation other than "lul his stuff is bad".

Also, and this goes to everyone, when i tell you that you can do something with Robocop im not talking in this nebulous void where i fight on paper. I DO this shit, daily. I do nothing but play this game and this character. I dont just throw statements out there just to say things, these are tried and true. Believe me or not i really dont care but dont talk to me as if i havent done my homework and my testing.

EDIT: I wouldnt have written this guide if i wasnt 100% sure of what i put into it. I dont think this character is top tier but im also definitely looking at him in an objective light because thats how i look at my characters. I can note when a loss is a character weakness and when its a me weakness. I lab my options and execute them. Thats final.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
He's beat a lot more recognizable players than just that guy... Maybe the reason why you can't win with Robocop is because you aren't doing due diligence in research on how be really effective with him. I've watched @CrazyFingers destroy big name pro players with Robocop.

Here's another truth bomb which may sting... the level of balance in MK11 is still very good despite some characters being worse than others. If you take a look at any tier list there are no characters in like "F" or a tier the represents uselessness and inability to compete. Most tier lists end in B or C, which is a far cry from relegating the low tier into a category where they just factually cannot win. Even Shao Kahn has tools and effective strategies just like Robocop has, though they might not be on par with some of the higher tier characters doesn't mean you can't win with them.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
I'm going to quote my original post here because these are my core arguments and these are what no one has even tried to refute, other than "nuh-uh".
I think that's the way he and others are supposed to work in theory, but it rarely works out that way against a savvy opponent. It's still a matter of your opponent having to make 3 or even 4 times as many mistakes as you. If I'm fighting Lao and guess wrong at almost any point in the match and while blocking mid staggers and hops and throws and d3s and all that other garbage, I'll eat close to 40% of my health, anywhere on screen, and wake up into more insane oki. Same for Kabal and most of the other top-tier.

As RoboCop, you've either got to just peck away at the opponent and hope you don't get touched, or you can use one of your terrible launchers to go for some of that "bigly" (according to Stephanie) 24% 1-bar damage without any significant oki-followup. The risk-vs-reward just isn't there. Can RoboCop win matches? Of course. Is he still possibly the worst character in the game? I'd say bottom 3 for sure.

Unless I just missed it, the guide doesn't mention his total lack of defense. Yeah, his d2 is fast and d4 can give some characters problems, but that's really it. His wakeups and flawless blocks get him killed more often than they connect. Once he's knocked down, the majority of the kast can bully him heavily with no fear of retribution.

Once he's cornered, it's game over depending on the MU. He doesn't have the tools necessary to keep from being bullied in the corner. Depending on the MU, all he can do is wait for jump-ins to try to anti-air, or try to keep people out with d4. And, again, if he guesses right then maybe he deals 19% damage and gains some ground. But if he guesses wrong in the corner, well, it's not going to work out great for him.

My final point is about throws. Every character can throw, so having a character who is reliant on throws to get their damage is fundamentally unbalanced, especially in a game with a mechanic specifically designed to punish throws for upwards of 65% damnage, and especially in a game with characters like Rambo and Kotal who have several throws built into their strings (and I think Rambo has much better zoning than RoboCop, but that's a discussion for another time lol). Just because a character needs throws to get their damage doesn't mean they're any better at throwing than any other character.
Paragraph 1: not refuted. His 6% mid projectile does not warrant this weakness.

Paragraph 2. not refuted. His 6% mid projectile does not warrant this weakness.

Paragraph 3: not refuted. His 6% mid projectile does not warrant this weakness.

Paragraph 4: not refuted. His 6% mid projectile does not warrant this weakness.

Paragraph 5: not refuted. His 6% mid projectile does not warrant this weakness.

You all are arguing without addressing any of these issues, other than to say "well several characters have bad u3's" or "his zoning is so good he should have low damage". The "strengths" you mention, like being able to break out of staggers, are just the bare minimum for a character to be considered viable.

There also seems to be this confusion that I don't think RoboCop can win. That's not the case. I still do quite well with him despite these issues. I've been wrecked by Shao Kahn and other bottom-tier characters. I've never said the character can't win and to claim so is purely reductionist. All I originally said is that this guide is overly optimistic and provided some specific examples.

Maybe the reason why you can't win with Robocop is because you aren't doing due diligence in research on how be really effective with him.
Again, you're making baseless assumptions. I do quite well with him except in some specific matchups. That doesn't mean I can't see how gimped he is. Again, you're attacking me instead of my arguments. If I was really just that bad at the game and was wrong about all this shit, you and other should have been able to shut me down immediately. You see it happen on this site about once a month, where some new player will make a thread complaining about Noob Saibot or whatever and they get eviscerated. It's weird that I can post giant paragraphs filled with complaints about RoboCop, yet either not enough people disagree with me or the character is so janky that not enough people play him to post about him.
 
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Why are those "sending you" lol? I'm attacking the argument, not anyone who has made it. That is literally what you do when debating someone.

No need to take it to general. This is a thread about RoboCop and we're discussing RoboCop and the things mentioned in the thread.
because it is objectively pretty funny to be say 'That argument doesn't work if you think about it,' directly into 'we're here to talk things out.' You have my respect always but that's not engaging the argument it's dismissing it.

I'm not sold on the robochip discussion. I think regardless of how other people beat Robo, he beats THEM with chip. It doesn't matter much if other characters do it better or anything like that, I'm not making comparisons -- I don't think anyone is saying Robocop is a great character in MK11.

BUT that doesn't mean we aren't looking for ways to make it work, just like you did. I just spent 2 hours trying out Stunt Double set-ups but if I wanted to play Johnny seriously, I probably would be...not doing that. I fall somewhere in between this 'show me the top 8' and 'im just here to have fun,' I'm looking for ways to play the character viably in a competitive setting and I think Robocop is in the conversation. Honestly his movement alone can beat people, that is what Fingers is saying when he says Robo can out neutral Joker and crazyfingers' Joker is a filthy disgusting animal so he knows what he is talking about.

So on average, how much of a health bar is Robocop chipping people for in a round he wins? Probably a lot. It's worth looking into surely. So I don't understand the idea that it's not a part of his gameplan -- even if it's to the degree that it is in everyone's gameplay. How he is taking damage from other characters doesn't matter in this context, that's what I'm saying.

BTW I also don't think rushdown chip and zoning chip are equal. Rushdown comes with substantially more risk.
 

Dante

Noob
Robocop is pretty bottom, but playable. Not very fun for most ppl tho.

@CrazyFingers why would you confirm into flamethrower instead of wrist rocket btw? The benefits are significantly bigger imo by sending them full screen and setting your chipaway game, till they are in range for dash throw pretty much.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Robocop is pretty bottom, but playable. Not very fun for most ppl tho.

@CrazyFingers why would you confirm into flamethrower instead of wrist rocket btw? The benefits are significantly bigger imo by sending them full screen and setting your chipaway game, till they are in range for dash throw pretty much.
Its dependent on matchup and lifelead tbh. If im playing against a character like Jade who can actively invalidate a large chunk of my gameplan im definitely going to want flamethrower or if im at a low health total and need to try and run offense to make a comeback i'll want flamethrower. Against someone like Joker where the health is about even, im gonna slam him fullscreen. Another thing to think about is constantly putting your opponent in different situations that require different play patterns. Defending against offense is very different from trying to get in so if you randomly flip this switch and start rushdown it can catch the opponent off guard which makes the rushdown more potent than it might otherwise be.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
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Premium Supporter
because it is objectively pretty funny to be say 'That argument doesn't work if you think about it,' directly into 'we're here to talk things out.' You have my respect always but that's not engaging the argument it's dismissing it.

I'm not sold on the robochip discussion. I think regardless of how other people beat Robo, he beats THEM with chip. It doesn't matter much if other characters do it better or anything like that, I'm not making comparisons -- I don't think anyone is saying Robocop is a great character in MK11.

BUT that doesn't mean we aren't looking for ways to make it work, just like you did. I just spent 2 hours trying out Stunt Double set-ups but if I wanted to play Johnny seriously, I probably would be...not doing that. I fall somewhere in between this 'show me the top 8' and 'im just here to have fun,' I'm looking for ways to play the character viably in a competitive setting and I think Robocop is in the conversation. Honestly his movement alone can beat people, that is what Fingers is saying when he says Robo can out neutral Joker and crazyfingers' Joker is a filthy disgusting animal so he knows what he is talking about.

So on average, how much of a health bar is Robocop chipping people for in a round he wins? Probably a lot. It's worth looking into surely. So I don't understand the idea that it's not a part of his gameplan -- even if it's to the degree that it is in everyone's gameplay. How he is taking damage from other characters doesn't matter in this context, that's what I'm saying.

BTW I also don't think rushdown chip and zoning chip are equal. Rushdown comes with substantially more risk.
How am I dismissing the argument?!?!?! I literally laid out every detail as to why I said that. Do me a favor. Go back and read page 1 of this thread. The entire page. Watch out for something that I noticed: I'll make a statement, like RoboCop's tools don't warrant his low damage. I'll then back that up with why I think that. Then read whatever response I get. In just about every case, the response is some form of "no" or "nuh-uh". No reason. No argument. Just "those moves are not gimped" or "that is not correct". And if someone does post an argument and I refute it (again, while posting my reasoning), well suddenly I'm just "dismissing the argument" even though that's literally what you are doing.

Look at how many questions I ask that go answered. Look how many times I'll make several claims and the ones that can't be refuted are just ignored lol. If anyone wants to debate, they need to "man up" and debate.

If you want to make a bad character work, you won't get there by ignoring what makes them bad, which is what this guide does. Like I and @M2Dave have said, this guide is overly optimistic. It will not help new players and will only discourage them lol. How confused will they be when they read this guide, jump online, and realize the character is not nearly as good as they were lead to believe? No, his weaknesses must be acknowledged and discussed, and they should definitely be included in the guide, along with tips on how to overcome them.

I wouldn't say there's an "average" amount of chip since it will depend on the matchup. "Probably a lot". No. I would imagine characters that don't have a great answer for full-screen Low-Shot probably take 10%-15% chip per round, max. But remember, most characters will be able to chip him as well, so the zoning chip still isn't as extreme as it would seem in even the best-case scenario.

Your final sentence depends on the MU. Against some characters, it's a huge risk to try to zone. Characters with fast teleports, projectile parries, or just decent jump-arcs into full kombos can absolutely wreck you for guessing wrong on when to bf1.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
Instead of just saying some throw away thing like "are we playing the same game?" You could provide something to the conversation other than "lul his stuff is bad".
You are describing the match as though custom moves were still illegal and Joker were fighting pre-patch Deadshot.

If I am fighting Robocop as Joker, I am equipping Kapow so that I almost do twice as much damage as Robocop every successful hit. The second move that I am equipping is Boing, a full-screen leap that allows me to punish a whiffed low auto for 30%+ damage. Obviously, I cannot leap and whiff punish the low auto on reaction, but the threat of the leap will cause the Robocop player to zone more cautiously allowing me to close the gap. In addition to Boing, Joker has access to amplified b,f+4, which is another phenomenal tool to close the gap.

Yes, Robocop can play footsies with low auto and d+4 effectively, but these two moves have a low damage output and are susceptible to jumping attacks. Robocop's d+2 is unimpressive and consistently reacting to jumping attacks with d,b+1 is difficult. The reality is that when Joker's f+2 connects, although being a high attack, he does 30% damage with one bar. When f+1 connects, he does 30% damage with one bar. The point is that Joker's normal attacks and strings offer superior reward. Robocop's normal attacks and strings, being inferior as far as recovery frames and range are concerned, do not.

I could discuss more details, but you claim to have done your homework so I assume that you already know all of this stuff. I still believe that Robocop is one of the worst characters in the game., albeit a balanced game. No guide or video tutorial will change my mind until I see concrete results, and I am not even referring to tournament results although they would be preferred. I would love to see casual games between high level players, one of whom is Robocop having some success fighting the game's top tier characters. So far I have seen nothing but theory, optimism, and delusions.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Lol, how am I dismissing the argument?!?!?! I literally fucking laid out every goddamn detail as to why I said that. Do me a favor. Go back and read page 1 of this thread. The entire page. Watch out for something that I noticed: I'll make a statement, like RoboCop's tools don't warrant his low damage. I'll then back that up with why I think that. Then read whatever response I get. In just about every case, the response is some form of "no" or "nuh-uh". No reason. No argument. Just "those moves are not gimped" or "that is not correct". And if someone does post an argument and I refute it (again, while posting my reasoning), wel suddenly I'm just "dismissing the argument" even though that's literally what you are doing. Jesus Christ.

Look at how many questions I ask that go answered. Look how many times I'll make several claims and the ones that can't be refuted are just ignored lol. If anyone wants to debate, they need to "man up" and debate.

If you want to make a bad character work, you won't get there by ignoring what makes them bad, which is what this guide does. Like I and @M2Dave have said, this guide is overly optimistic. It will not help new players and will only discourage them lol. How confused will they be when they read this guide, jump online, and realize the character is not nearly as good as they were lead to believe? No, his weaknesses must be acknowledged and discussed, and they should definitely be included in the guide, along with tips on how to overcome them.

I wouldn't say there's an "average" amount of chip since it will depend on the matchup. "Probably a lot". No. I would imagine characters that don't have a great answer for full-screen Low-Shot probably take 10%-15% chip per round, max. But remember, most characters will be able to chip him as well, so the zoning chip still isn't as extreme as it would seem in even the best-case scenario.

Your final sentence depends on the MU. Against some characters, it's a huge risk to try to zone. Characters with fast teleports, projectile parries, or just decent jump-arcs into full kombos can absolutely wreck you for guessing wrong on when to bf2.
How is it overly optimistic when i open the entire thing with what is essentially a giant sign that says "DONT GET CORNERED. YOU WILL DIE HERE." I didnt go over his weaknesses that much because theres not much to say on them. The character has issue on defense in some instances and as a result needs to plan out when his buttons are pressed and i go over when you should press your buttons in the normals/strings section. I dont think i need to drag on about how bad something is to be helpful to someone. You have what you have and you deal with it, this is telling you how to deal with it. The tone isnt optimistic, its word for word how i approach the character. Nowhere do i say its ironclad and i use terminology like "can" and "has the potential to" anywhere that might be misconstrued as optimism is simply me explaining what the reasoning is behind doing certain things. Im not out here preaching the gospel of top tier robocop lol
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
Ok I just wanted to talk about robocop but there's something else going on here I don't have time for, have fun out there everyone.
Wait, are you dismissing my arguments? You asked questions. I answered questions. Now you're leaving. After complaining that your arguments are being dismissed. This thread in a nutshell lol.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
All these arguments are going around in circles and are becoming pretty pointless so im gonna get in front of this and end debating by leaving you all with this. If you think Robocop is bad, cool, i dont much care. This guide is here to teach people getting into the character the basic concepts present in his gameplan as I see them. I spent a ton of time crafting the thoughts behind the words you see in this guide. Any "over optimistic" sections of the guide are not meant as optimism, it is my observation of the character over hundreds of hours of playing him. If you read optimism thats fine and all but that doesnt affect the overall guide. I mention his weaknesses momentarily, i mention his strengths momentarily, i give you the gameplan and thought process. Thats it. This stuff is working for me vs good players but i KNOW you cant just take my word for it which is where we meet this wall. I appreciate all the words and the discourse. If anyone has any QUESTIONS i will be happy to answer and give my insights.
 
Wait, are you dismissing my arguments? You asked questions. I answered questions. Now you're leaving. After complaining that your arguments are being dismissed. This thread in a nutshell lol.
I'm fine with having a debate but I guess more of a friendly one, I find your tone pretty disrespectful and that's not why I'm here so I'm choosing to disengage. It looks like the OP is too, surely a coincidence.
 

Dante

Noob
I've watched it more than 200 times for sure :O I learned english by watching it lol

But yeah, the guide is good in explaining how to play for max results. I guess a gimped char is what passes for "hard character" in this party fg :O
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
How is it overly optimistic when i open the entire thing with what is essentially a giant sign that says "DONT GET CORNERED. YOU WILL DIE HERE." I didnt go over his weaknesses that much because theres not much to say on them. The character has issue on defense in some instances and as a result needs to plan out when his buttons are pressed and i go over when you should press your buttons in the normals/strings section. I dont think i need to drag on about how bad something is to be helpful to someone. You have what you have and you deal with it, this is telling you how to deal with it. The tone isnt optimistic, its word for word how i approach the character. Nowhere do i say its ironclad and i use terminology like "can" and "has the potential to" anywhere that might be misconstrued as optimism is simply me explaining what the reasoning is behind doing certain things. Im not out here preaching the gospel of top tier robocop lol
You literally said earlier that the corner issue applies to every character in the game. So we an factor that out as a weakness (though not really since RoboCop has no way to switch sides other than command grab or normal throw).

I never said you need to "drag on" about anything, but if you're going to write a guide then you need to include information about the character's weaknesses and how to overcome them. Honestly, that's probably more important than anything else.

No one every said you were preaching the gospel of top-tier RoboCop either. All I said originally is that the guide is overly optimistic and gave some reasons, which most people have chosen to ignore.

When you posted this guide, your first comment was that you were open to criticism. I did you the favor of reading your full guide, posted what I liked about it, and, following your instructions, posted my thoughts about the areas where I disagreed.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
How do you fight prevalent anti-zoning characters such as Jade and Shang Tsung with Robocop?
Before customs it was SIGNIFICANTLY harder. For Jade i legit could not tell you how, she really gave him one of the hardest times ive ever had on a character. Shang Tsung it depended upon the variation. Soul Eater was about getting to D4 range and choosing your projectile timings super precisely, wasnt an easy Mu. Warlock was kinda free cuz you just bodied corpse drop.

In this post customs world i have been finding OCP charge to be super useful in these MUs due to its safety and priority along with its travel time being pretty quick. Scouting out air glaives with jumps makes Jade have to think a lot more. Glow is still a pain in the ass to deal with and the MU is most likely still poor but the gameplan now is to land an OCP charge and try to run offense. Shang its basically the same as it was pre customs. If they have smoke parry then OCP charge is probably still a strong choice but if anything, you can still just play that midrange where low shot is super hard/impossible to react to and harass from those ranges. I tend to want to keep there in a lot of MUs but in ones like that it feels pretty integral to beating the character.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
I'm fine with having a debate but I guess more of a friendly one, I find your tone pretty disrespectful and that's not why I'm here so I'm choosing to disengage. It looks like the OP is too, surely a coincidence.
If you want to have a friendly debate then you need to attack ideas, not people. You need to stop accusing people of doing the things that you are doing to them (that's called gaslighting). And you need to stop making arguments that were refuted pages ago. I'd love a friendly debate and I'm sick as shit of having my arguments countered with "you're just dismissing the argument" when that's literally what you are doing to me. You don't want a friendly debate. You want to say your opinion without being questioned, and you threaten to leave the discussion the second you can't back up your claims.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
You literally said earlier that the corner issue applies to every character in the game. So we an factor that out as a weakness (though not really since RoboCop has no way to switch sides other than command grab or normal throw).

I never said you need to "drag on" about anything, but if you're going to write a guide then you need to include information about the character's weaknesses and how to overcome them. Honestly, that's probably more important than anything else.

No one every said you were preaching the gospel of top-tier RoboCop either. All I said originally is that the guide is overly optimistic and gave some reasons, which most people have chosen to ignore.

When you posted this guide, your first comment was that you were open to criticism. I did you the favor of reading your full guide, posted what I liked about it, and, following your instructions, posted my thoughts about the areas where I disagreed.
And i appreciate the discussion immensely but every argument that i have is "thats not how it is" because in my experience thats NOT how it is. I already said we both clearly have very different experiences with the character and thats not something i can debate you on. I cant change your experiences by telling you mine are different, thats not how it works which is why i find the debates to be kind of redundant at this point. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree on some stuff.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
And i appreciate the discussion immensely but every argument that i have is "thats not how it is" because in my experience thats NOT how it is. I already said we both clearly have very different experiences with the character and thats not something i can debate you on. I cant change your experiences by telling you mine are different, thats not how it works which is why i find the debates to be kind of redundant at this point. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree on some stuff.
lol I'm afraid I disagree on this point, too. If it does work for you, you should be able to say why. You're a good player, you're not just doing shit at random with no understanding of the underlying mechanics. If you're going to write a guide on this character then you should be able to make concrete statements about his tools without resorting to "because I said so".

Different experiences don't change the kast, the core mechanics, or his tools. We're playing different levels of players with different habits, but that's it. I'll be the first to admit that you would almost certainly beat me in a ft10, but that doesn't make my arguments any less valid. I mean, I literally wrote the original guide on RoboCop, so I have a solid understanding of the character beyond my own MU experience with him.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Before customs it was SIGNIFICANTLY harder. For Jade i legit could not tell you how, she really gave him one of the hardest times ive ever had on a character. Shang Tsung it depended upon the variation. Soul Eater was about getting to D4 range and choosing your projectile timings super precisely, wasnt an easy Mu. Warlock was kinda free cuz you just bodied corpse drop.

In this post customs world i have been finding OCP charge to be super useful in these MUs due to its safety and priority along with its travel time being pretty quick. Scouting out air glaives with jumps makes Jade have to think a lot more. Glow is still a pain in the ass to deal with and the MU is most likely still poor but the gameplan now is to land an OCP charge and try to run offense. Shang its basically the same as it was pre customs. If they have smoke parry then OCP charge is probably still a strong choice but if anything, you can still just play that midrange where low shot is super hard/impossible to react to and harass from those ranges. I tend to want to keep there in a lot of MUs but in ones like that it feels pretty integral to beating the character.
I believe that most of Robocop's matches have become significantly more difficult in this patch. You and I agree that Robocop beat Shang Tsung before custom variations. Now is a very different story, though. Shake changes the match entirely because you can no longer trade projectiles. So Shang Tsung fills the screen with skulls, ground eruptions, and corpse drops while Robocop is unable to retaliate because of shake. I also fail to see the aerial charge's utility in this match. Ground eruption will anti air you at the range where you usually want to use the move.

I get frustrated at this point because I am using a zoning character who cannot zone. I am forced to rush down with a character who has stubby normal attacks, no frame advantage on any normal attacks or strings, and the worst command grab range in the game. Not to be negative and begin another argument, but characters like Jade and Shang Tsung are just a couple of matches that cause Robocop to be competitively nonviable.