The disconnect i think ive found here is that youre trying argue the character is of a certain power level when that was never even close to where my conversation was. Your "criticism" of my guide essentially boils down to "the character is bad and you didnt say he's bad" when i didnt even say he's GOOD either. Youre reading into the tone of my guide and not the content of it. As far as if that makes my guide worse or better im not sure but fine, you wanna do this? Lets do this.
So immediately, here we go with you rephrasing my argument into something that I never said. All I said in that initial post, and what other people have said as well, was that the guide is "overly optimistic". It harps on his strengths far more than his weaknesses, almost reading like an advertisement Stephanie would put out to sell DLC. I do think the character is hot garbage, but I've explained why in-depth.
1: The idea that EVERY character can just disrespect robocop's options is just completely silly. Are there characters that disproportionally mitigate/eliminate a lot of potential options he has? Absolutely, Jade is a character who exists in the game but he still has ways to get out of things like staggers and spacing situations (see his D4 for the latter and his dashes/mids for the former) He has to make more of a committment for certain but your take is that he doesnt have options when he clearly DOES. The risk reward is going to be in the opponent's favor, that is the nature of low damage characters in general so i cant really argue that point.
Here, too, my argument is taken to the most extreme example to include "EVERY character". I never said that, so once again you're twisting what I'm saying into nonsense and then arguing with that. I think you accused me of straw-manning, but isn't this the exact definition of a straw man argument?
You say he has options, but what are they? If the opponent is outside his u2 or u3 distance, he can't wake up into them. He's forced to just delay, roll, or block. It's like there's an entire core mechanic in this game that he just doesn't get to participate in.
2: As far as button based defense he really doesnt have huge issues in this department, already kinda went over that he can defend himself he just needs more comittment (a weakness but still an option) when it comes to his flawlessblocks i have never had U3 whiff. U2 plenty, but never once has U3 whiffed for me in any of my games. Maybe im missing something but i really just have never had this issue idk what else to say. When he's knocked down he might not have something braindead like a Shao or Skarlet U3 but i tend to put more emphasis on wakeup delays and rolls to mitigate danger. When you delay a wakeup they are forced to either wait or go for a meaty that will answer both delay and normal getup. As a result you can navigate oki better. The character doesnt get THAT much more mauled on defense than other characters with U3s like his. He does need to block more than others in the corner but midscreen you can essentially just leave a lot of stagger situations with backdash or swing with your 10f mid. There really arent many characters in this game as a whole that cant get out of staggers when you commit to the option.
But even when flawless block punishing with u3, what does that do for him? Deals a bit of damage and gets some frame advantage. But with his low damage and bad normals, how is he supposed to capitalize on that? Most characters, you've gotta respect their followup after hitting with u3; it totally stops the opponent's momentum and puts the fight in your favor. RoboCop's does stop momentum, but I wouldn't say he actually gets any big advantage out of it.
3: I ACKNOWLEDGED THIS ALREADY but let me acknowledge it again. Keep in mind this is assuming an even or winning matchup where he can actually use his gameplan. If you need me to clarify that his gameplan needs to work for his gameplan to work in the matchup then there ya go. Robocop's gameplay can create a lot of patience in the opponent which, as a result, means they are inherently open to more throws. If you are trying to get in on robocop and youve closed distance to about his dash ranges you have a TON of options you need to look out for which can cause you to try and play reactive. This also opens you up to sudden changes in the landscape, like robocop dashing an immense distance into a throw with little time to retaliate.
You keep saying you acknowledged these arguments, but I literally pulled all the information I could find from the 1st 3 pages (since you stopped ackowledging my arguments after that). And no, if you're going to assume an "even or winning matchup" when debating these issues then your guide needs a disclaimer that says "ONLY WORKS IN EVEN OR FAVORABLE MATCHUPS". And, just because you "acknowledge" an argument doesn't mean you refuted it or even provided information related to it. Your response is harping on RoboCop's options when within throw range; it doesn't really acknowledge his utter reliance on throws for up-close damage. And since the opponent doesn't need to respect his damage output, it makes it more likely that RoboCop's throw attempts get countered more frequently than other characters.
4: i acknowleged this too outside of the Joker thing but whatever, the character doesnt have a problem opening you up in the neutral thats literally his thing and his random hits in the neutral might not be comparable to a full combo but youre not just eating ONE hit. Take a sequence like getting tagged with amp low shot, blocking a low shot then going for a jump on a read of a low shot and getting slammed by amp rocket. He spent two bars sure but that doesnt matter since meter is LITERALLY FREE and more of a cooldown than anything but more importantly, you just ate close to 30% of your health just trying to get in and now youre back full screen. These kinds of scenarios preseny themselves CONSTANTLY. Youre looking at the character as if he will only get one hit and as a result his hits dont matter. Another example is something as simple as F32 amp flamethrower into a throw reset. Thats 30% there too. He doesnt do no damage just because his singular hits arent huge damage. Peoples health bars can MELT when Robocop has the read on them.
If the opponent blocks low, you literally cannot open them up without throwing. RoboCop doesn't have Noob's frame traps, damage output, or restand into more nonsense. This limits RoboCop to playing a purely footsie-based game. Sure, this works against some characters, but when it doesn't, RoboCop is fucked. I'm not even saying that requiring a character to play footsies is a bad thing. I just don't think RoboCop has the tools to play a serious footsie game against much of the kast.
Take a sequence with any other character. Get tagged with Lao spin, eat 35%+ into Oki that heavily favors Lao, especially considering RoboCop's lack of wakeup defense. With a throw tacked on, like what your doing for RoboCop, that brings that up to around 45% 1-bar mid-screen damage. RoboCop would have to land his optimal launching kombo twice, including spending 2 bars, just to get close to that damage. He would need to hit with 3 entire sequences of 121~flamethrower to come back from that 1 mistake.
Jade and D'Vorah are similar, doing their damage in sequences of low-damage offense. But you know what "sequence" is code for? "Having to open up the opponent 2 or 3 times just to deal 1 kombo's worth of damage." Great, I hit with 121~flamethrower, so I'm at massive advantage. Now will I go mid-attack, 121, throw, backdash, or something crazier?
Yes, meter is free, but that applies to all characters. It still doesn't justify a 2-bar 30% kombo lol.
Yes, he can melt health bars when the opponent guesses wrong repeatedly. But you know who else does that? Literally every other character. The difference is you only get about 3 to 5 mistakes vs most of the kast. Against RoboCop, you have to really fuck up repeatedly for him to melt your health bar.
5: B2 is a BAD BUTTON. I already said it is a BAD combo filler only button. I never said the button wasnt bad. This is a strawman.
Well no, I said it was bad, and you defended it by saying it wasn't meant to be used in the neutral. Our conversation is still on the 1st page lol. Your response was that his buttons aren't gimped and "Also can defend the B2, its not a button meant to be used outside of combos. Those kinds of buttons exist all the time i would just suggest not using it cuz its bad outside of that lol." I maintained that it was still bad because even in kombos it only adds a few percent damage and it whiffs on female hitboxes but you did not acknowledge that argument.
6: acknowledged this too! Crazy i know! His buttons are not "non-functional" his buttons are difficult to use there is a gigantic difference between these two things. Your wording implies they cannot be used. Not functioning means they serve no function which is a blatant falsehood. I dont think i need to explain to you how thats false when i know for a fact during your time playing the character you have used these buttons to serve a function and as have i. I do think he's locked into low shot, flamethrower maybe not AS much due to gas cannister but low shot definitely. Most characters, however, have at least one move they MUST have because of how good it is. Some characters, like Mileena, have TWO just like Robocop.
When I say "non-functional" I just mean that without Low Shot and Flamethrower, his kit simply doesn't work. Apparently UltraDavid is having success without Flamethrower, which is surprising, but he does have ways to get similar effects to Flamethrower, just with less damage. But try playing him without Low Shot. Let me know how functional he feels when he can't check people with bf1. That's what I meant. I do agree that several characters are also locked into specific kustom setups, but that's just whataboutism. Saying character X also has this weaknesses doesn't excuse RoboCop having said weakness
1a. You are again looking at his damage in a vaccuum. You need to see what situations each thing leads into, if you tag someone with one projectile it guarantees you one thing or another. Meaty projectiles, spike trap, oki, whatever it may be. The damage is important but the situations are just as if not MORE important. This also ties into why you cant just play him as a pure zoner which i mention in the damn guide. You have to meet your opponent half way with buttons and throws and dash punish baits. He's not a pure keep away character and THAT is the fundamental issue with a lot of the ideas i see thrown around about the character. Youre going to lose and think he's bad if you just play him pure zoning. Thats. Not. The point.
Has anyone made that point? I certainly haven't, so not sure why your arguing like that's my stance lol. This argument applies to all characters. Only instead of little nibbles out of your health bar like RoboCop does, they're taking big ol chunks with every touch.
2a. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT TIERS. Point to where i said he was or wasnt bottom 3. If i had the implied air about me talking about his tier placement i can tell you right now that wasnt my intent. All im saying is that he isnt that terrible. We are in MK11, no one is that terrible. Not even remotely.
Lol, there are some serious misunderstandings going down. I never said you did. I literally just asked the question but you and others have refused to answer it. And it's a simple question: If RoboCop isn't terrible, what other characters would you rank below him? The only consensus seems to be Shao Kahn, which would make RoboCop the 2nd worst character in the game.
3a. I didnt see their posts i was too busy paying attention to what you were saying. There was a big influx of like 3 different conversations going on at that time and honestly idk what they have to do with our conversation but yea, literally just didnt see every post thats been made here.
Gotcha.
4a. acknowledged this one too, im starting to think youre the one ignoring arguments. Normals do SIGNIFICANTLY less chip than specials. You can do strings for 5-10 seconds on block and not get close to the amount of chip from specials over 5-10 seconds. Rushdown chip is based in normals/strings and outside of a few specific characters like Joker, specials will end offense. Meanwhile Robocop's chip is almost entirely based in his specials which means, on average, whenever either character is in their respective ideal spacings, Robocop will be doing more chip.
lol and I responded to your response! RoboCop doesn't get to just zone for free; he'll still be taking plenty of zoning chip, himself, in most matchups that he doesn't dominate with bf1. Sure, let's say that he comes out on top with chip every match. What would you say the difference is between the chip he took and the chip his opponent took? RoboCop also has no safe way to chip, other than through zoning, so I think chip probably averages out in the end, but I won't argue further if you think he's coming out on top every match.
I know i might be coming off as a bit AGGRESSIVE rn but i legit acknowledged most of these and you seem to just dismiss my shit. Maybe i missed something but there you go. Im sure i'll get some response like "this is all good on paper but when you get into the REAL game it just doesnt work like that" well it really DOES work like that because again, thats how ive been playing him since his release.
I believe you sincerely think you acknowledged these arguments, but hopefully you can see from my responses why I disagree. In most instances, you were arguing points that I never made. And I'll just repeat this bit: If that's how RoboCop works for you then you should be able to say why. You're not doing shit at random, you know what you're doing. So it should be very easy for you to answer any of these questions.
To touch on "you arent mentioning his weaknesses" his weaknesses are exclusively Mu dependent. They ebb and flow judged solely on who he is fighting and incase you didnt notice, i dont have a matchup section. This is an extensive guide on the framework for the character. I am not going to handhold people through his matchups in a guide not going into his matchups. I still have a ton to learn about his matchups, especially after ultimate came out, that is why it is not extensive as much as to go into thr very specific matchup nuances that create his weaknesses.
Doesn't this argument apply to all characters? I can't think of any strength or weakness that isn't dependent on the MU.
Hope this is enough interaction to be satisfactory.
It's a start! <3
