The 3 Things we need for lao in the next patch

[KutlessMyth]

Why do you keep saying KL doesn't have an overhead? He has tele 2, not to mention hop attacks like everyone else has (people need to use these way more, they are really good). Not to mention a lot of characters never use their overheads because they end strings that have gaps, are slow and/or punishable. Overheads aren't needed to open anyone up in this game. Throws are as powerful as they have ever been, characters generally have good enough walk speeds to make moves whiff etc.

Edit: P.S., Liu Kang has zero overheads and is considered in the top 10 by most people.

Tele 2 is unsafe and can be mashed out of, hop attacks can be mashed out of. I'm only suggesting an overhead spike off the 2 string (hkd) if the triple high hitbox glitch was intentional and will not be patched, idk why I'm getting lampooned for this. I'm the first person to be against the 50/50 meta but people kung lao never gets to use his plus string because of the glitch. And if it's on purpose then I think it would be fair if there were a way to threaten people in order to make them allow themselves to be minus.

 

[KutlessMyth]

Just play the neutral, build meter, and optimize your punishes. Lao is going to be fine.

out here tellin me to exist

 

[Temp]

out here tellin me to exist

Yes. I am. You get rewarded JUST for playing defense in this game. People fighting Fate in IJ2 would have been very grateful for this luxury.

If existing is too difficult, there's always Geras and Scorpion.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

@Temp
That's a lot of upplaying F1,3. There is no 50/50. The string isn't hit-confirmable. You can flawless block the 2nd hit and get an U3 reversal. What does Lao even get if he staggers? Throw is his best option. I'm not saying that's a bad option I'm saying that f1 stagger isn't hard to deal with at all.
There is a reason players like forever king and foxy dont play their favorite character this early on. They have seen the tools this character has and have decided he's not even viable for competing. In my opinion Lao is under mid tier. He doesn't show potential and many people have looked. Nerfing the "6 best characters" (who really are they, again?) does not put Lao anywhere above low tier to low mid tier.

 

[Temp]

That's a lot of upplaying F1,3. There is no 50/50. The string isn't hit-confirmable.

F13 is absolutely hit confirmable. When the 3 comes out, you ex-spin if it hits and you Orbital if it doesn't. If the latter happens, you're safely out of range and can reset your footsies.

You can flawless block the 2nd hit and get an U3 reversal.

But that's if you even do the 3. If they're baiting the flawless block, you can continue your pressure.

What does Lao even get if he staggers? Throw is his best option.

And it's a REALLY good option because A) that's decent damage, and B) you get to put your opponent closer to the corner.

I'm not saying that's a bad option I'm saying that f1 stagger isn't hard to deal with at all.

It isn't hard to deal with if you know EXACTLY what Lao is going to do. You don't, though. If you mash after the F1, you risk eating the F13. If you respect the F13, you risk throw or another F1 pressure sequence. Plus, there's this whole strategy of walk-back and delay after F1 that people aren't even exploring yet. Every tool is bad if your opponent if omniscient.

There is a reason players like forever king and foxy dont play their favorite character this early on. They have seen the tools this character has and have decided he's not even viable for competing.

Foxy and King won't play Lao because he's not a top-10 contender... and they are right. If you're playing for E-Sports money, then yes, Lao is a poor choice. That goes for everyone outside of top 10. But not being able to win Evo and not being competitive are two very different things. Lao will struggle hard to beat Sonya at this point in the game's life, but if we're talking about balance here, the solution isn't necessarily to buff Lao: it's to nerf the obvious suspects.

Quick sidenote, though: If I were in Paulo's shoes, I would give Lao some modest buffs. F2 doesn't need to be negative 9, and Tele-option 4 seems unreasonably slow. I just don't want Lao to be the new Geras because people don't understand how the character works.

In my opinion Lao is under mid tier. He doesn't show potential and many people have looked. Nerfing the "6 best characters" (who really are they, again?) does not put Lao anywhere above low tier to low mid tier.

I would contend that Lao doesn't have any matchup worse than 6-4 outside of the top 10, but that's another debate. This has also not been properly explored, IMO.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

@Temp
Im saying you cannot hit confirm f1. If you throw out f1,3 on a read you're likely to get blown up because people are figuring out turtling lao is super easy. My point is the risk of using f1,3 is incredible unless you're using lotus fist and you want to spend 2 bars to forfeit offense on a wrong guess. When you use orbiting hat what footsie tools do you have? Dive kick? You cant use 2,1 or f2, or b3,2 and you cant use f1,3. That's like 4 out of 6 strings.

 

[ol_dirty_blunt]

Please fix this character, he's my favorite cannon character ;-;

1.) Fix the 21212 hitboxes to connect with characters crouch blocking for block stun
2.) an overhead option (it would be great if it was off of the 21 string to keep people from trying to duck under :/)

*EDIT for people misunderstanding: Adding an overhead option doesn't automatically create 50/50's or even mix. I suggested an overhead option to replace the two hat throw highs in 21212 (like 2U3 or something) because it's a triple high starter with a glitched hitbox. I would probably just want an overhead HKD spike off of it, just to make opponents not always low block and abuse the hitbox glitch. I'm not a 50/50 warrior, it's just a matter of I want NRS to fix the 21212 hitbox bug, but if they don't, adding an overhead would be nice so everyone doesn't just always crouch block. Not to mention every character in the game has an overhead option except kung lao, which is poor game design in my opinion.

3.) this one is a less necessary one, but if the hitboxes absolutely cannot be fixed Make the orbital hat not cost as much or not cost anything, like in MKX. (I feel like the orbital hat doesn't last nearly as long as it did in MKX and it's a lot of resources for a neutral tool that could whiff)

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD OLD HAT TRICK AS A TOURNAMENT VARIATION sorry, that ones taboo

Criticism? Agree? Disagree? lmk fam

I would be fine will just making the 212 string hit mid and changing the krushing blow requirements, idk to what though

 

[Temp]

Im saying you cannot hit confirm f1. If you throw out f1,3 on a read you're likely to get blown up because people are figuring out turtling lao is super easy. My point is the risk of using f1,3 is incredible unless you're using lotus fist and you want to spend 2 bars to forfeit offense on a wrong guess.

To be clear, I'm only talking about Lotus. I'm not defending hat tricks.

But you won't get blown up if you're doing Orbital. That's my point. You're never taking a risk with F13 as long as you have meter. There is this ongoing narrative that if Lao does orbital for safety and loses the two bars, he's is at this horrible disadvantage... but he's not. F21 is still a great whiff punish. F12 is a safe neutral tool for checking the opponent. People still don't realize how good dash-in D3 is in MK11, and Lao has a top 5 D3 in the game... and he doesn't need meter to do any of this stuff. Even hat throw is not horrible if all you want to do is get your opponent to neutral crouch a couple of time while you build meter.

When you use orbiting hat what footsie tools do you have? Dive kick? You cant use 2,1 or f2, or b3,2 and you cant use f1,3. That's like 4 out of 6 strings.

Never said people should be using Orbital in footsies. I said the opposite, actually: Orbital is there to make your strings safe.

 

[Hellbringer]

If you look at the character, it's very obvious what Paulo was trying to do.

F21212 was CLEARLY meant to be a punish string. Those highs are Paulo's way of telling you, "this isn't for neutral. This is for optimizing damage. Enjoy." But people aren't getting it. Same thing F21: this is a whiff punisher, guys. It's not supposed to be you're go-to confirm string. You already have a safe confirm with F4. When your opponent mis-spaces a dial combo, F21 is your best footsie tool. The krushing blow is Paulo's way of saying "wink-wink, use this string for whiff-punishing, you scrub."

Paulo gave you guys a very clear map of how you're suppose to play the character, but no one wants to see it because either A) they want 1st-world tools such as 50/50's, or B) They're trying to play the character in a way Lao wasn't intended.

This next point is probably the true spirit of the issue. "But why doesn't he get safe strings when everyone does?" His strings are all safe with Orbital. All of them. It makes his F1/F13 stagger a safe 50/50. THAT'S 300+ DAMAGE FOR A STAGGER SETUP. Now that I've typed that, we wait for someone to say, "But it takes two bars! It's too expensive." Three points...

1) Lao doesn't need meter to play his basic footsie game. Did you do orbital? Now you gotta walk in the neutral. Again, Paulo wasn't being cryptic here: he wanted to reward patience and neutral play. Lao with meter turns into a stagger monster. For the while, you're going to have to look for whiff punishes and check your opponent with F12 and D3. That won't be good enough for some people. They'll need plus frames. They'll want a combo-starting 50/50. That's not the character, though.

2) Once you've established that you're using orbital for safe-canceling, you're opponent is going to be conditioned to wait for it. You don't always have to pull the trigger on Orbital once your opponent is conditioned. You get to save those two bars you were talking about, which is good because apparently you need them so badly.

3) The people complaining about the two bar penalty are mostly just trying to disguise their actual sentiment of wanting Lao to get safe shit for free. I have zero pity for these people. In MKX, many people would have KILLED for a safe 50/50 stagger, and when lord Paulo gives one to Lao, you sip your wine and say, "Two bars? I wouldn't sully my hands." Spoiled. Just straight-up spoiled.

Finally, people are gonna cry, "But Geras!" If Geras is your problem, then the solution is to nerf Geras. That has nothing to do with Kung Lao. By nerfing the top 6, Lao becomes a SUBSTANTIALLY better character.

I do think two bars for orbital is a little ridiculous, but it doesn't ruin the character. Just play the neutral, build meter, and optimize your punishes. Lao is going to be fine.

Couldn't have said it better myself. All kung lao downplayers read what this man has to say and absorb it.

What ppl also seem to forget that because of using stagger and throw so much it opens ppl up more to stop blocking and bait them to try and punish throw.

 

[kcd117]

adding an overhead option to a string doesn't automatically create 50/50's it's just to make people stand block because the triple high starter in 21212

He has a low. Give him an overhead and there you have it, another character with scrubby means to open people up.

They just need to adjust his 21 string to jail if the first hit is blocked and he'll be fine. He probably has the best normal/throw mixup in the game already, if he gets this fix he'd make a huge leap in the tier list.

 

[just_2swift]

Quality of the life changes

*F2 to -2

*F2,1 to -7

*2,1 changed to high mid

*F1,3 to -8

==================================
Move his chain fist input to his 1,2 and change 121 input to 12f1 for this change

*Improves his stagger game and mind games up close (1,2 throw. 1,2 into chain fist. 1,2 into another 1,2 etc)

F1,2 changed to mid overhead

*Improves the utility of F1 by making it a conditioning tool for Lao to stagger F1 into his b3.

 

[Clark L.]

If you look at the character, it's very obvious what Paulo was trying to do.

F21212 was CLEARLY meant to be a punish string. Those highs are Paulo's way of telling you, "this isn't for neutral. This is for optimizing damage. Enjoy." But people aren't getting it. Same thing F21: this is a whiff punisher, guys. It's not supposed to be you're go-to confirm string. You already have a safe confirm with F4. When your opponent mis-spaces a dial combo, F21 is your best footsie tool. The krushing blow is Paulo's way of saying "wink-wink, use this string for whiff-punishing, you scrub."

Paulo gave you guys a very clear map of how you're suppose to play the character, but no one wants to see it because either A) they want 1st-world tools such as 50/50's, or B) They're trying to play the character in a way Lao wasn't intended.

This next point is probably the true spirit of the issue. "But why doesn't he get safe strings when everyone does?" His strings are all safe with Orbital. All of them. It makes his F1/F13 stagger a safe 50/50. THAT'S 300+ DAMAGE FOR A STAGGER SETUP. Now that I've typed that, we wait for someone to say, "But it takes two bars! It's too expensive." Three points...

1) Lao doesn't need meter to play his basic footsie game. Did you do orbital? Now you gotta walk in the neutral. Again, Paulo wasn't being cryptic here: he wanted to reward patience and neutral play. Lao with meter turns into a stagger monster. For the while, you're going to have to look for whiff punishes and check your opponent with F12 and D3. That won't be good enough for some people. They'll need plus frames. They'll want a combo-starting 50/50. That's not the character, though.

2) Once you've established that you're using orbital for safe-canceling, you're opponent is going to be conditioned to wait for it. You don't always have to pull the trigger on Orbital once your opponent is conditioned. You get to save those two bars you were talking about, which is good because apparently you need them so badly.

3) The people complaining about the two bar penalty are mostly just trying to disguise their actual sentiment of wanting Lao to get safe shit for free. I have zero pity for these people. In MKX, many people would have KILLED for a safe 50/50 stagger, and when lord Paulo gives one to Lao, you sip your wine and say, "Two bars? I wouldn't sully my hands." Spoiled. Just straight-up spoiled.

Finally, people are gonna cry, "But Geras!" If Geras is your problem, then the solution is to nerf Geras. That has nothing to do with Kung Lao. By nerfing the top 6, Lao becomes a SUBSTANTIALLY better character.

I do think two bars for orbital is a little ridiculous, but it doesn't ruin the character. Just play the neutral, build meter, and optimize your punishes. Lao is going to be fine.

Literally how I’ve been playing him

 

[Professor Oak]

He really only needs f21 safe.

I think make f2 alone neutral. Make him a spacing god. F21 being like -7.

 

[Clark L.]

I think make f2 alone neutral. Make him a spacing god. F21 being like -7.

his f1 is really good for spacing

 

[just_2swift]

I think make f2 alone neutral. Make him a spacing god. F21 being like -7.

I agree with you. F1 can only get you so far.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

Never said people should be using Orbital in footsies. I said the opposite, actually: Orbital is there to make your strings safe.

Right I understand the situation you're saying to use orbital. I mean after you cancel into orbital to make yourself safe. Hat goes away and you cant use hat strings.

 

[KutlessMyth]

He has a low. Give him an overhead and there you have it, another character with scrubby means to open people up.

They just need to adjust his 21 string to jail if the first hit is blocked and he'll be fine. He probably has the best normal/throw mixup in the game already, if he gets this fix he'd make a huge leap in the tier list.

1.) ...... no, if you tried to stagger 2 into b3 that would be fake asf, they'd have like a 60 frame gap to press.... if you get opened up by "mix" that slow then you deserve to be opened up imo. Adding overheads does not create mix. If you staggered that hard my 9 year old cousin would press. imo, just having an overhead and low option does not create 50/50's or mix, unless it's a safe/plus stagger or special move interrupt.
2.) His throw-normal mixup is pretty good, I agree. But I think too many of his normals are punishable for him to just get shot up to top tier by that one hitbox patch. (most of his normals are punishable on block)

 

[Carl]

Ill give you guys a recap of lao as i attended bam and made top 8 mainly using jade and the odd lao. I am a hardcore lao fan and honestly this is what i feel he needs.

F21 - from -13 to -7.
This would make him a good whiff punisher without being afraid to stick it out. Use f21 into spin and away you go.

21212 - FIx the whiffing issue.
As we all know this is the most frustrating thing for us lao mains.
I do believe this string is intended for punishes but sometimes the s2 doesnt catch and you end up getting d2 krushing blow for punishing lol.

Is it possible to make b3 or f2 faster? Since he dont have overheads i wouldnt mind either.

2 bars for orbiting hat and losing your strings for awhile seems unworthy so some adjustments can be made here.

 

[just_2swift]

Ill give you guys a recap of lao as i attended bam and made top 8 mainly using jade and the odd lao. I am a hardcore lao fan and honestly this is what i feel he needs.

F21 - from -13 to -7.
This would make him a good whiff punisher without being afraid to stick it out. Use f21 into spin and away you go.

21212 - FIx the whiffing issue.
As we all know this is the most frustrating thing for us lao mains.
I do believe this string is intended for punishes but sometimes the s2 doesnt catch and you end up getting d2 krushing blow for punishing lol.

Is it possible to make b3 or f2 faster? Since he dont have overheads i wouldnt mind either.

2 bars for orbiting hat and losing your strings for awhile seems unworthy so some adjustments can be made here.

B3 is pretty fast already f2 to 12 frames from 15 maybe

 

[methademic]

He doesn't need an overhead, he is not a mix up character, learn to stagger and play neutral

 

[Carl]

B3 is pretty fast already f2 to 12 frames from 15 maybe

B3 is 16f i wouldnt mind 14f if so.
Hope to see him a solid neutral character and if 21212 doesnt whiff then we have good frame traps.

 

[just_2swift]

Spin is 12 frames lol

 

[DixieFlatline78]

I'm glad KL doesnt have a bunch of moves where it's like "Uh idk what to do I'll just do this, oh it worked and it's really rewarding". Like I can't just do f21 to get in and start a poke war, I cant just teleport because I detected a little movement. They're all strong moves that I get punished heavily for misusing. If I make the right move, I do a 34% combo or a setup that does nearly 50% if it hits.

I dont remember who it was but someone was playing a set with a Karin player who kept doing sHK V-Trigger cancels, on hit, block, and counterhit. So he would stay out of sHK range and the guy didnt know what to do. He asked why he was always going for it and the guy said "I dunno it's just what you do with Karin"

I get that it's way better to have extremely strong moves that I can pressure people for days with, but I ain't a pro player and probably never will be. I'm not at the level where I can blame my losses 100% on my character. It's because I didn't apply his tools right

 

[just_2swift]

Wow that tempest variation is a bill of goods.

 

[Professor Oak]

Lotus Fist needs serious reworking IMO. Yes, it makes your strings safe, but I believe with the right decision making you are rarely going to overextend yourself to NEED orbiting hat. The air tele and moving hat up and down seem far more practical.

Orbiting Hat does not eat a projectile, and goes away on hit and block. It has minuscule hit advantage that allows essentially one combo path. Takes away your best strings for an amount of time. Ends your turn, all pressure and staggers are fake using this. Its just unreasonably expensive for these reasons.

Perhaps he needs both variations retooled, or maybe we are overlooking some match up specific functionality? Im not sure. I win far more consistently with Hat Tricks, simply because I rarely dont have meter when I jeed to breakaway.