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The 3 Things we need for lao in the next patch

If you think you need a decent overhead to open people up or "coz other characters' have it" you should switch character or not talk at all. Not every character in the game has a decent overhead.
He needs something to have the opponent guess to stand or duck imo. some players are loyal to their favorite character. I for example see no other character that i like to play besides Lao. So im hoping to get Lao a bit better than his current state.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
He needs something to have the opponent guess to stand or duck imo. some players are loyal to their favorite character. I for example see no other character that i like to play besides Lao. So im hoping to get Lao a bit better than his current state.
This isn't MK X and Lao in MK 11 isn't about mixing your oponnent. Many characters in MK 11 are about outspacing and whiff punishing on top of normal guessing game (normal / throw / short hop oh). If you want to mix your oponent play Sonya or even Erron Black. I understand you're a character loyalist so was i (Kenshi) but MK 11 is what MK 11 is, so you either adjust or switch character to one which has the tools you like. Lao by design in MK 11 isn't a mix character and he isn't shit tier like Dvorah or Kotal either, he's just not top tier like mentioned characters but he doesn't have to be, he can be like many other characters which is mid tier.
 

kcd117

Noob
Making his 21 jail if 2 is blocked already creates a mindgame of block/poke/duck after a blocked 21212. The string is + and guarantees a d3 against everyone without a 6 frames d1, if they release block, or try to distespect d3 hits and 2 jails after a d3 on hit, giving you another loop. If they block you can just 21212 again or throw. This is a much more fair and interestihg mindgame than just giving him scrubby 50/50s.
 

XxTheGoblinX

Supreme
This isn't MK X and Lao in MK 11 isn't about mixing your oponnent. Many characters in MK 11 are about outspacing and whiff punishing on top of normal guessing game (normal / throw / short hop oh). If you want to mix your oponent play Sonya or even Erron Black. I understand you're a character loyalist so was i (Kenshi) but MK 11 is what MK 11 is, so you either adjust or switch character to one which has the tools you like. Lao by design in MK 11 isn't a mix character and he isn't shit tier like Dvorah or Kotal either, he's just not top tier like mentioned characters but he doesn't have to be, he can be like many other characters which is mid tier.
From my experience with fighting good Laos, his buttons control neutral well and when I try to punish some of his unsafe andvancing moves he has the ex hatspin mindgame to cover his weakness and apply more pressure. I honestly dont think he "needs" anything else.
 
From my experience with fighting good Laos, his buttons control neutral well and when I try to punish some of his unsafe andvancing moves he has the ex hatspin mindgame to cover his weakness and apply more pressure. I honestly dont think he "needs" anything else.
Ex spin doesn't actually cover his unsafe strings. The only unsafe advancing strings are f1,3 and f2,1
Both strings have a third hit which is equally unsafe. No matter which option he chooses, 3rd hit or special cancel, he is full combo punishable with no mixup.
If you're talking about orbiting hat (1 bar of offensive and 1 of defensive meter) then Lao is at -7 on block and cant do a follow up. He has to respect the fact that you can poke him out of any follow up attack or even jab you into a full combo.
Orbiting hat makes Lao safe on block for 2 bars but he forfeits any pressure
 

XxTheGoblinX

Supreme
Ex spin doesn't actually cover his unsafe strings. The only unsafe advancing strings are f1,3 and f2,1
Both strings have a third hit which is equally unsafe. No matter which option he chooses, 3rd hit or special cancel, he is full combo punishable with no mixup.
If you're talking about orbiting hat (1 bar of offensive and 1 of defensive meter) then Lao is at -7 on block and cant do a follow up. He has to respect the fact that you can poke him out of any follow up attack or even jab you into a full combo.
Orbiting hat makes Lao safe on block for 2 bars but he forfeits any pressure
Yea im talking about the orbiting hat, On block yes i can poke out. but if the hat hits he has advantage, so if I try to punish his -13 or -11 move , im not sure the exact number . But Lao gets momentum on hit so yes those strings are unsafe but the orbit hat is a good cover.
 
Yea im talking about the orbiting hat, On block yes i can poke out. but if the hat hits he has advantage, so if I try to punish his -13 or -11 move , im not sure the exact number . But Lao gets momentum on hit so yes those strings are unsafe but the orbit hat is a good cover.
But like I said it doesn't cover anything. You cant special cancel after the third hit of either string. If Lao does 2 hits into special cancel then you're still blocking because the fact that he's -19 on f1,3 and -17 on f2,1 gives you room to watch for the cancel and punish either accordingly
 

XxTheGoblinX

Supreme
But like I said it doesn't cover anything. You cant special cancel after the third hit of either string. If Lao does 2 hits into special cancel then you're still blocking because the fact that he's -19 on f1,3 and -17 on f2,1 gives you room to watch for the cancel and punish either accordingly
F2,1 is -13, if you dont use orbiting hat your getting full combo. F1,3 has some push back so most characters would have to dash in to get a full punish. And when they try to dash in you orbit hat to take the initiative. Whose punishing a -7 move on block?
 

JTC

ABILITY TO FREEZE
His f21 should be -5 or -6

21212 first hit is high while the rest is mid

Orbiting hat should jus take 1 offense bar

Maybe revisit some krushing blow requirements

Not sure how nrs intended on designing kung lao for this game but going by his previous incarnations on how hes suppose to be this crazy offensive character, its definitely not working. Overall his frame data is pretty bad. Jus block low and low poke him. I really like f1 stagger but theres only so much you can do with it.
 
F2,1 is -13, if you dont use orbiting hat your getting full combo. F1,3 has some push back so most characters would have to dash in to get a full punish. And when they try to dash in you orbit hat to take the initiative. Whose punishing a -7 move on block?
You're right about orbiting hat being safe. I have tested f1,3 on block and there's a very specific visual cue of Lao catching the hat that shows he missed the cancel window and you can recognize it before you recover and the -19 is even in effect.
Basically it's a tight punish, but he never has a mindgame. So at -19 I imagine most characters can use a mid range move to punish.
Now on the issue of using orbiting hat to make the string safe: Lao uses 2 bars. In order to be safe you can no longer break away, wakeup attacks remove the rest of your meter, canceling another string to stay safe uses the rest of your meter. You're always down on meter and without access to defensive and offensive meter options means Lao will always be at a disadvantage when trying to get or hold a life lead. This is why I, and a lot of other Lao players opt for his hat tricks variation which removes orbiting hat entirely and there is no "guess" whether or not he will cancel, and now he's back to being unsafe on almost all of his strings
 

Wicked

Noob
How is hat trick by the way in comparison to lotus fist? It's because f2,1 and f1,3 are unsafe that I like using lotus fist; those strings have a pretty long animation for me to confirm if I need to do orbiting hat to stay safe or opt for a combo off hit confirming.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
If you think you need a decent overhead to open people up or "coz other characters' have it" you should switch character or not talk at all. Not every character in the game has a decent overhead.
I think if a character doesn't have a tool that literally every single other character has, then it's unfair and should be changed.
But especially with the broken triple high hitbox that whiffs on people crouch blocking, he needs an overhead threat. Or else people will just abuse the glitch. (or nrs could fix the glitch, but that probably won't happen) Also, I'm all for buffing kotal, but seeings how this is the fucking Kung Lao thread I didn't bring that up.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
How is hat trick by the way in comparison to lotus fist? It's because f2,1 and f1,3 are unsafe that I like using lotus fist; those strings have a pretty long animation for me to confirm if I need to do orbiting hat to stay safe or opt for a combo off hit confirming.
Hat Tricks is actually more viable than lotus fist imo.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
Making his 21 jail if 2 is blocked already creates a mindgame of block/poke/duck after a blocked 21212. The string is + and guarantees a d3 against everyone without a 6 frames d1, if they release block, or try to distespect d3 hits and 2 jails after a d3 on hit, giving you another loop. If they block you can just 21212 again or throw. This is a much more fair and interestihg mindgame than just giving him scrubby 50/50s.
adding an overhead option to a string doesn't automatically create 50/50's it's just to make people stand block because the triple high starter in 21212
 

JTC

ABILITY TO FREEZE
Hat Tricks is actually more viable than lotus fist imo.
Agreed pretty much use hat trick now. The resource orbital hat uses up is too much. Id rather use the resource on amp zhat for plus frames. Also air tele is a cool gimmick.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
Agreed pretty much use hat trick now. The resource orbital hat uses up is too much. Id rather use the resource on amp zhat for plus frames. Also air tele is a cool gimmick.
Air tele is a great gimick, and if you end a combo with j3 du you can get an air tp 1 oki which I was thinking of making a thread about
 
Reactions: JTC

Immortal

Blind justice....
I think if a character doesn't have a tool that literally every single other character has, then it's unfair and should be changed.
Bruh, this will never happen, some character have it, some dont, there never will be 100% equality. Different characters represent different (to some degree) fighting style (mechanics). Kung Lao is not designed to be a mix character in MK 11. He is designed to play the neutral game of punishing whiffs to which he has good tools, coz he controls the (air) space so well. He is not a pressure character nor mix heavy, if you want that, go play Sonya, Liu Kang, Geras, SZ.

I agree hitbox problems should be fixed for sure. Thou imo he doesn't need good OH, just like many other characters which are fine without it.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
Bruh, this will never happen, some character have it, some dont, there never will be 100% equality. Different characters represent different (to some degree) fighting style (mechanics). Kung Lao is not designed to be a mix character in MK 11. He is designed to play the neutral game of punishing whiffs to which he has good tools, coz he controls the (air) space so well. He is not a pressure character nor mix heavy, if you want that, go play Sonya, Liu Kang, Geras, SZ.

I agree hitbox problems should be fixed for sure. Thou imo he doesn't need good OH, just like many other characters which are fine without it.
Overheads don't mean mix. I added an edit to the main post, please read. It's just to combat the broken hitbox. I know Kung Lao isn't a mix character, he's a pressure-spacing character who does good damage. He has fit my playstyle since MKX almost perfectly. Also one more time for the people in the back. Overheads don't mean mix, I just proposed it off of the 21string because of the glitched hitboxes of the triple high and the fact that NRS might not fix it in the game's lifetime.
*edit: you literally partially quoted what I said to make your argument seem stronger, that's pretty low.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
Overheads don't mean mix. I added an edit to the main post, please read. It's just to combat the broken hitbox. I know Kung Lao isn't a mix character, he's a pressure-spacing character who does good damage. He has fit my playstyle since MKX almost perfectly. Also one more time for the people in the back. Overheads don't mean mix, I just proposed it off of the 21string because of the glitched hitboxes of the triple high and the fact that NRS might not fix it in the game's lifetime.
*edit: you literally partially quoted what I said to make your argument seem stronger, that's pretty low.
I quoted the part i wanted to highlight, not to make my point or make you look.... Dont asume to much. There was nothing low about it. I understand, you're new here and very young but it's a common practice on forums.

I also agreed with you that he should get hitboxes fixed which should solve most of his problems and then i see no reason to give him OH - which im obviously against. Also dont bring MK X into the conversation that will never add anything to your point in MK 11.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I think if a character doesn't have a tool that literally every single other character has, then it's unfair and should be changed.
But especially with the broken triple high hitbox that whiffs on people crouch blocking, he needs an overhead threat. Or else people will just abuse the glitch. (or nrs could fix the glitch, but that probably won't happen) Also, I'm all for buffing kotal, but seeings how this is the fucking Kung Lao thread I didn't bring that up.
Why do you keep saying KL doesn't have an overhead? He has tele 2, not to mention hop attacks like everyone else has (people need to use these way more, they are really good). Not to mention a lot of characters never use their overheads because they end strings that have gaps, are slow and/or punishable. Overheads aren't needed to open anyone up in this game. Throws are as powerful as they have ever been, characters generally have good enough walk speeds to make moves whiff etc.

Edit: P.S., Liu Kang has zero overheads and is considered in the top 10 by most people.
 
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Temp

Salmon. Otters. The Bringer.
If you look at the character, it's very obvious what Paulo was trying to do.

F21212 was CLEARLY meant to be a punish string. Those highs are Paulo's way of telling you, "this isn't for neutral. This is for optimizing damage. Enjoy." But people aren't getting it. Same thing F21: this is a whiff punisher, guys. It's not supposed to be you're go-to confirm string. You already have a safe confirm with F4. When your opponent mis-spaces a dial combo, F21 is your best footsie tool. The krushing blow is Paulo's way of saying "wink-wink, use this string for whiff-punishing, you scrub."

Paulo gave you guys a very clear map of how you're suppose to play the character, but no one wants to see it because either A) they want 1st-world tools such as 50/50's, or B) They're trying to play the character in a way Lao wasn't intended.

This next point is probably the true spirit of the issue. "But why doesn't he get safe strings when everyone does?" His strings are all safe with Orbital. All of them. It makes his F1/F13 stagger a safe 50/50. THAT'S 300+ DAMAGE FOR A STAGGER SETUP. Now that I've typed that, we wait for someone to say, "But it takes two bars! It's too expensive." Three points...

1) Lao doesn't need meter to play his basic footsie game. Did you do orbital? Now you gotta walk in the neutral. Again, Paulo wasn't being cryptic here: he wanted to reward patience and neutral play. Lao with meter turns into a stagger monster. For the while, you're going to have to look for whiff punishes and check your opponent with F12 and D3. That won't be good enough for some people. They'll need plus frames. They'll want a combo-starting 50/50. That's not the character, though.

2) Once you've established that you're using orbital for safe-canceling, you're opponent is going to be conditioned to wait for it. You don't always have to pull the trigger on Orbital once your opponent is conditioned. You get to save those two bars you were talking about, which is good because apparently you need them so badly.

3) The people complaining about the two bar penalty are mostly just trying to disguise their actual sentiment of wanting Lao to get safe shit for free. I have zero pity for these people. In MKX, many people would have KILLED for a safe 50/50 stagger, and when lord Paulo gives one to Lao, you sip your wine and say, "Two bars? I wouldn't sully my hands." Spoiled. Just straight-up spoiled.

Finally, people are gonna cry, "But Geras!" If Geras is your problem, then the solution is to nerf Geras. That has nothing to do with Kung Lao. By nerfing the top 6, Lao becomes a SUBSTANTIALLY better character.

I do think two bars for orbital is a little ridiculous, but it doesn't ruin the character. Just play the neutral, build meter, and optimize your punishes. Lao is going to be fine.