Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[-narshkajke-]

But of course, and if ice clone is buffed, it won't mean I'm giving up on Blood God Kotal in that GM SubZ matchup, just need to kick and scratch harder

Buffed? is it so hard to understand that the logic behind the klone is that you touch it you got frozen.

 

[-narshkajke-]

Dude Tom Brady I agree with you on this subject but why come off so aggressively and dismissively to anyone who hasn't trained against your group of "top players"? Like why even post here if the opinion and idea's of those not in your elite group of players is irrelevant? Newsflash, 90% of players here are not in that group. Also, assuming this never gets fixed what is actually so bad about Sub being a middle of the pack tier character at best as you claim?

are you triggered?

 

[DarthVado]

Hey guys, I made a video talking about what I believe is the main issue behind what Tom has been posting on Youtube about. I believe it's related to hitboxes on attacks, not the clone itself. As we can see fists can enter locations without getting frozen that Erron's kicks cannot, so to me, that means it is not the clone, because if it was, all attacks would get frozen, the variable changing here is the attacks used, not the clone.

I tested it even further later to see how much in the clone Sub can be and be safe from Erron's kicks, and Sub can be pretty much directly on top of the clone and not get touched by several of Erron's kicks. It should be noted that not even the same limbs doing an attack need to have the same hitboxes while they are attacking. So let's say, just as a hypothetical, I did D3 with Kano and that was frozen, that does not mean that Kano's 3 must also get frozen, or even his D4, it all depends on the individual attack's hit box.

Regardless of whether the clone itself has a smaller hit box than can be seen, I think the best way to respond to this is to in fact fix hit boxes on character attacks. This would both fix the issues with certain attacks not getting frozen, and would make the footsie game of MKX much stronger, as being able to catch limbs from outside of their range is an important part of footsies. If NRS just made the collision of the ice clone bigger, it would at max only solve one issue, and at worst, make Sub Zero completely braindead, which while I know a lot of the cast in MKX is braindead, should still be something NRS should try to move the game away from.

 

[LRK128]

uh huh

 

[KH_Seraph]

A fix to hitboxes overall would be a god send for Liu Kang at the moment, just plugging that in there real quick in case this gets attention, lol.

 

[mattnin]

Buffed? is it so hard to understand that the logic behind the klone is that you touch it you got frozen.

Whoa, do you work for NRS? Because if not, you should call them right away and tell that developer he doesn't know jack about the ice clone and the hit box needs to be adjusted accordingly!

 

[REDRUM]

vanilla sub zero was fine...

 

[RiBBz22]

Hey guys, I made a video talking about what I believe is the main issue behind what Tom has been posting on Youtube about. I believe it's related to hitboxes on attacks, not the clone itself. As we can see fists can enter locations without getting frozen that Erron's kicks cannot, so to me, that means it is not the clone, because if it was, all attacks would get frozen, the variable changing here is the attacks used, not the clone.

I tested it even further later to see how much in the clone Sub can be and be safe from Erron's kicks, and Sub can be pretty much directly on top of the clone and not get touched by several of Erron's kicks. It should be noted that not even the same limbs doing an attack need to have the same hitboxes while they are attacking. So let's say, just as a hypothetical, I did D3 with Kano and that was frozen, that does not mean that Kano's 3 must also get frozen, or even his D4, it all depends on the individual attack's hit box.

Regardless of whether the clone itself has a smaller hit box than can be seen, I think the best way to respond to this is to in fact fix hit boxes on character attacks. This would both fix the issues with certain attacks not getting frozen, and would make the footsie game of MKX much stronger, as being able to catch limbs from outside of their range is an important part of footsies. If NRS just made the collision of the ice clone bigger, it would at max only solve one issue, and at worst, make Sub Zero completely braindead, which while I know a lot of the cast in MKX is braindead, should still be something NRS should try to move the game away from.

Yeah NRS please fix this so that kicks also go through the clone


AT COLT

 

[GLoRToR]

Maybe under a certain # of frames it goes through?
Also let me throw it out there, clone blocking projectiles too is too much imo.

 

[DarthVado]

Also I should mention that even in the current Sub Zero state, you can in fact mix people up from the safe range. Just use D4 as your low, sure, you don't get a full combo, but you do get a mix up on hit, and the D4 is safer than B33, longer, and faster, so it's much easier to scare opponents with. You can also use it to scare opponents into always trying to punish a move forward, since it comes out so fast, just inch slightly forward and D4, most people are gonna have issues reacting to such a slight move forward, and 9 frames is very close to what a lot of the cast has for quick pokes, so the opponent would need to be extremely quick to respond to you.

 

[Bender]

From trial and error and playing the MU a lot, I think that IF the attack would hit Sub 0 behind the clone, then the attack works and breaks the clone. If it would whiff, then you get frozen (excluding phantom arms and whatnot).

I'm all for fixing hitbox issues for the whole cast. I'd much rather see these kind of changes instead of buffs/ nerfs in the next patch.

FYI - I don't have audio right now, so will have to wait to view the video, which probably explains this in good detail.

I'll have to take the clone to practice mode and see which strings / pokes work for my character(s).

 

[-narshkajke-]

Whoa, do you work for NRS? Because if not, you should call them right away and tell that developer he doesn't know jack about the ice clone and the hit box needs to be adjusted accordingly!

well they did nerf sub early due to people crying about it and not understanding the matchup, imagine what they'll do with valid reasoning and proof.

 

[mattnin]

well they did nerf sub early due to people crying about it and not understanding the matchup, imagine what they'll do with valid reasoning and proof.

I guess you do work for NRS because you know the exact reasons Sub Zero was nerfed! Nah, they don't look at stats, or charts or graphs, they listen to the cries of nubs on TYM!

 

[Tom Brady]

as i said on twitter.. you are wrong. The kick(s) you are using are still not being frozen until they touch the very back of the clone. The collision on the attacks you used have HUGE collision which is why they were frozen before hitting SZ.

This is not a punches vs kicks because punches have disjointed collision issue. Several kick attacks in the game do the same thing as the punches when it comes to going through the clone.

My example has nothing to do with a disjointed hitbox or anything other then the clone's collision is too small. You dont understand the issue but still try respond anyways....

 

[DevilMaySpy]

This response could have stayed in Tom's thread, and that's where it's going.

 

[DarthVado]

This response could have stayed in Tom's thread, and that's where it's going.

Sorry, I'm new to the site so I didn't know.

 

[DarthVado]

as i said on twitter.. you are wrong. The kick(s) you are using are still not being frozen until they touch the very back of the clone. The collision on the attacks you used have HUGE collision which is why they were frozen before hitting SZ.

This is not a punches vs kicks because punches have disjointed collision issue. Several kick attacks in the game do the same thing as the punches when it comes to going through the clone.

My example has nothing to do with a disjointed hitbox or anything other then the clone's collision is too small. You dont understand the issue but still try respond anyways....

As I said in my initial post, these things are not universal, just because Erron's kicks can't go through, doesn't mean someone else's can, and same for punches.

But as I also said, the issue still comes around to character attack hit boxes, NRS should fix the disjointed hitboxes on these attacks, thus solving your issue, and making footsies much stronger. So regardless if I'm wrong about the clone itself, that still is the best way to resolve this, as I see it.

Also, you can mix people up from a safe range in the corner, use D4 for your low attack, then on hit go for your next mix up.

 

[-narshkajke-]

I guess you do work for NRS because you know the exact reasons Sub Zero was nerfed! Nah, they don't look at stats, or charts or graphs, they listen to the cries of nubs on TYM!

well people here call on Colt to let them know if there's something wrong with their char or other char, so it's valid, althought that's not the only factor I assume,,
but you're thinking because blood god kotal, one variation of a character can't get around klone for free, sub's clone have to be not fixed. that's just not really a good reasoning there. just level up man, k?

 

[Bender]

You are absolutely insane, im no pro player like @Tom Brady here, but I have played a ton of Sub zero through every MK game since MK2 and I have never seen someone say this about a BUG!

The klone is a simple concept, whether it goes away on block or not, if you touch ANY PART OF THE KLONE, you are then frozen, that's how the move is meant to work, that's how its always worked, and that's how it should be working now.

The games meta evolving will not magically fix the clone's broken hit detection, if anything ppl will find more ways around the klone making it worse

If scorpions spear had a 30% chance of not pulling the opponent to him (STAY OVER THERE) when it hits would you be saying "let the game evolve?" NO BECAUSE THE SPEAR IS MEANT TO PULL YOU 100% OF THE TIME, that's how the move is meant to work and that's how it should work, end of discussion.

No offense, but the comparison is a little weak. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but are you 100% sure the NRS dev team didn't intend for this change? When they made the patch, clone was intentionally designed to go away if sub blocked an attack. Since you can't make sub block an attack (without phantom arms or a few variation specific attacks) before you touch the clone, it may have been somewhat intentional in design. I could see it either way.

Again, I can't speak for NRS. What I do know is you have what you have for the moment. Honestly the entire community is aware that this thread is a hot topic - some agree, some don't. I'd look at it as an opportunity to try out other tech/ setups and if you get a stronger version of klone patched, you will have found additional setups to add to your gameplan and be stronger with his fundamentals when klone is not out.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Tom opened the stream to talk about this. Now you know it's real: www.twitch.tv/mktombrady_vs_mkreo

 

[RVB]

Ask for a fix and what you get is a bunch of crybabies showing up to tell us all how the klone is "evil" and it's not letting them play the game...cuz they "have no options".
I'm tired of seeing scrubs come in here and spit nonsense out that fixing the klone is somehow going to make SZ S tier... what it's gonna do is stop shit like this from happening:

Sorry no audio Twitch hates my music

 

[Rude]

Fact is, you have not played a vast majority of matches at very high levels of play. I doubt you are having sparring sessions vs Jax players like Tyrant and Jupiter. Have you played vs Scar or Death's Sonya? How about a Cage the level of DJT? A Scorpion the level of MIT or even Forever King Jr? etc...

Your opinions on how "dominant" SZ actually is will drastically change.

How dare he have opinions on the gaming forum.

What the fuck is his problem?

Only top 8 placers should have opinions or be allowed to talk about MK X.

Never fear, I'm on your side.

You shouldn't have to explain why you feel those match ups are bad and actually have a discussion. Rather, simply name dropping your sparring partners and saying, "If you're not playing these guys, you're not playing the match up" is enough.

 

[JMFitzy855]

"Buffing" or improving the collision of punches seems like it would have enormous implications for the game and the rest of the cast. People hate Ice Clone so much that they would essentially want to improve pressure universally to keep clone the same?

Or am I missing something?

 

[JimJam92]

I don't understand how Tom Brady can say he's wrong when he proved the ice clone will freeze well before Tom's supposed 'clone needs to be hit in the back' conundrum.

Obviously, the issue isn't that Sub-Zero's clone has a stupid hitbox. It's that some moves have stupid hurtboxes. Some moves get frozen before Sub-Zero blocks it and others do not. This is mostly dependant on the hurtbox on the move in question or, in these examples, the lack of well defined hurtboxes on certain moves and limbs.

 

[DarthVado]

"Buffing" or improving the collision of punches seems like it would have enormous implications for the game and the rest of the cast. People hate Ice Clone so much that they would essentially want to improve pressure universally to keep clone the same?

Or am I missing something?

I'm not saying to improve the attack range of these attacks, I'm saying to make the range these attacks can be attacked should be improved, it wouldn't make pressure worse of better, it would make footsies stronger since you could actually consistently punish a thrown out attack.