Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[ZeZe]

If one character's main tool disappears on block, why not make this adjustments to rest of the cast? Can you imagine the rage if Erron's caltrops disappeared on block or hit or Kotal's Sun ray or Sonya's drone, Tanya's dust (which seams to hang there forever) or Kung Lao's hat in hat trick additionally went away on block ( it already does on hit, maybe that's why this variation isn't popular). Or Takeda's dropped blade in Ronin to make him even more worthless? I'm jesting now, but on the other hand: if sub's life must be tough, Erron's or Sonya's could be as well, because if Sub can take it, they can handle it, too, right?

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Except this isn't a bug, and Erron took a huge hit to his mix up game and oki. Command grab now gives up pressure unless you spend a bar, and he lost pretty much all safe mix ups without meter. Now, both of those are good things to me, because I enjoy a good nerf on my main if it makes me main a smarter character, which is what those nerfs did.

Erron still has the tools he needs to succeed, he just needs to be a bit smarter about using them, which is the exact case here with Sub Zero. Sub Zero is a perfectly fine character even now, and he still has all the tools he needs to win. I even explained exactly why you still have a mix up game in the corner from the safe range Tom talks about, you just don't get to always convert a full combo without taking any real risk now. You either go overhead for a combo, or D4 for a low into mix up into combo, or walk forward grab, among several other options. Also, I play Gunslinger, so all those hits to Erron made what was already considered a horrible variation even worse.

Uh yes, the klone not freezing people when they touch it is a bug...

 

[DarthVado]

If one character's main tool disappears on block, why not make this adjustments to rest of the cast? Can you imagine the rage if Erron's caltrops disappeared on block or hit or Kotal's Sun ray or Sonya's drone, Tanya's dust (which seams to hang there forever) or Kung Lao's hat in hat trick additionally went away on block ( it already does on hit, maybe that's why this variation isn't popular). Or Takeda's dropped blade in Ronin to make him even more worthless? I'm jesting now, but on the other hand: if sub's life must be tough, Erron's or Sonya's could be as well, because if Sub can take it, they can handle it, too, right?

All of those things are not the same tools at all tho. Takeda's blade is not a move that once out can completely disrupt neutral game in his favor. The same applies to both Erron's caltrops and Kotal's Sun Ray, in fact, Kotal's Sun Ray barely affects neutral at all, since it takes away no options, and is not a physical thing, everything you can do outside of the ray, is everything you can do inside it. Erron's Caltrops do prevent running, but again it's not a complete stop to the opponent. Sonya's drone is pretty dumb, and Tanya's dust probably needs a nerf.

Regardless, this stupid vengeful mindset in regards to game design and character balance has got to stop. "Well, it's hard to play my character, so everyone should have to suffer." Is not a way to design video games, let alone a competitive one. You chose the character, you have the option to switch, the only thing that should be being considered in terms of patching is how to make the game more balanced and deep.

An eye for an eye produces a terrible game.

 

[DarthVado]

Uh yes, the klone not freezing people when they touch it is a bug...

No it's not, it's a hitbox issue that may very well have been deliberate on NRS's part. Sometimes things don't hit where they look like they do, and that is a reality of game design after you have already released a product and are trying to balance it after the fact.

 

[JimJam92]

Guys, this is what's happening with the clone.

http://i.imgur.com/su2KK.jpg

I don't understand why you're so against the idea that jabs just have bad hurtboxes on them.

Again, a moves looks and a moves properties are not the same thing. As you can clearly see on a confirmed hitbox and hurtbox of Gen from SF4, that move doesn't extend the hurtbox at all. Meaning, if he was in MKX, he would be beating out Sub-Zero's clone like other characters in this game are already donig.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Nobody is against the idea of anything. The fact is this didn't happen when the klone stayed on block and now that the klone vanishes on block, it does happen. We know the problem. This is happening because the klone was never designed to go away on block, as it would freeze them when their limbs were retracting (this can't happen anymore because before the limb retracts the klone has already vanished). It's a change to Sub Zero that was clearly not intended (unless you can find me proof in any of the patch notes), and therefore is a bug.

Just because we know what's going on with the hitboxes doesn't mean it isn't a bug.

 

[JimJam92]

Nobody is against the idea of anything. The fact is this didn't happen when the klone stayed on block and now that the klone vanishes on block, it does happen. We know the problem. This is happening because the klone was never designed to go away on block, as it would freeze them when their limbs were retracting (this can't happen anymore because before the limb retracts the klone has already vanished). It's a change to Sub Zero that was clearly not intended (unless you can find me proof in any of the patch notes), and therefore is a bug.

Just because we know what's going on with the hitboxes doesn't mean it isn't a bug.

Look, it didn't happen before because the clone goes away before it touches the hurtbox. Before the nerf, the full move went into the clone hitbox which let the hurtbox come in contact with the clone. You just don't see it because hitboxes and hurtboxes are invisible. I'm sure Sub still blocked the move back then, it just froze the opponent instead of remove the clone.

EDIT

Yes, if we know the hurtbox isn't going into the Sub-Zero clone then it very much isn't a glitch. It was intended to be that way.

You can't say 'well yeah, the hurtbox might be the issue' and then say it's still a glitch.

 

[DarthVado]

Nobody is against the idea of anything. The fact is this didn't happen when the klone stayed on block and now that the klone vanishes on block, it does happen. We know the problem. This is happening because the klone was never designed to go away on block, as it would freeze them when their limbs were retracting (this can't happen anymore because before the limb retracts the klone has already vanished). It's a change to Sub Zero that was clearly not intended (unless you can find me proof in any of the patch notes), and therefore is a bug.

Just because we know what's going on with the hitboxes doesn't mean it isn't a bug.

That is also not true, there is several things that were not mentioned in patch notes, yet were changed, Erron's F122 was changed from like -9 or -7, to -12, which was one of his tick grab strings, this means he lost a safe mix up, and this was not mentioned in the patch notes. In fact, Outlaw Erron also saw a damage nerf that was not mentioned in the patch.

And even if it is a mistake, it's not an unfair change to Sub at all, he still maintains his mind games, and general tools to work, he just needs to be smarter. Sometimes entire game mechanics are derived from bugs, or otherwise unintentional design. Combos were unintentional in SFII, yet are now a staple of the genre. Jump Installing from Guilty Gear was also a bug, but was left in after it was decided that it was a good thing to add to the game.

We should not be arguing whether anything was intentional, because that doesn't matter, that is a moot point behind what the real question that should be being asked is. Was the change a good one? I say yes, Sub does not lose his tools to win, he just needs to be smarter, and I'm pretty sure that's not a bad thing.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Why is this so hard for some people to comprehend? Lets break it down. The ice klone, a special move used by the popular Mortal Kombat character Sub Zero, is and always has been a move that's intended to freeze the opponent if they come into contact with it. < This is the important bit.

If I put out an ice klone in the corner and stand behind it while blocking, I should be protected from basically all non-armoured moves.
I am not.
(Please not that I am not standing in the klone, I am firmly standing behind the klone.)

Characters can extend their limbs through a whopping 3/4s of the klone to hit me without getting frozen. Not only does this look retarded, it is retarded. The move is very clearly not working as intended, and therefore is bugged.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Oh and @DarthVado, Erron's (and every other character's) frame changes were mentioned in the patch notes, they just weren't listed in the character specific changes.

 

[DarthVado]

Why is this so hard for some people to comprehend? Lets break it down. The ice klone, a special move used by the popular Mortal Kombat character Sub Zero, is and always has been a move that's intended to freeze the opponent if they come into contact with it. < This is the important bit.

No, that's literally the least important bit, because it's completely irrelevant to making a competitive fighting game. What matters is balance, and the way it affects the way the game plays. If you need to change what a move was originally intended to do for the sake of competitive play, you do it. Only a fool never deviates from their original design even if they see it can be improved through change.

 

[DarthVado]

Oh and @DarthVado, Erron's (and every other character's) frame changes were mentioned in the patch notes, they just weren't listed in the character specific changes.

They never mentioned Outlaw's damage nerf, and the frame data changes they mentioned were for moves that were previously listed at 0 on the menu, not Erron Black's F122 which was -7 or -9 before.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

No, that's literally the least important bit, because it's completely irrelevant to making a competitive fighting game. What matters is balance, and the way it affects the way the game plays. If you need to change what a move was originally intended to do for the sake of competitive play, you do it. Only a fool never deviates from their original design even if they see it can be improved through change.

You keep saying this as if this change to klone was intended by NRS. There is 0 evidence to support the claim that they meant to do this, whereas we have evidence. The evidence we have is that it's not listed anywhere in any of the changes to the game since release. Therefore all known evidence points toward that they didn't mean for this to happen. There is no way they would change the hitbox of a move in a patch. Not a chance in hell. That would require an insane amount of effort and time for one small change.

And if they did, they would tell us. They were very vocal about Sub's changes. A cooldown on the klone, and it now goes away on block. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say they made such a huge change in the same patch to the same character regarding the same move, and didn't tell us?

 

[DarthVado]

You keep saying this as if this change to klone was intended by NRS. There is 0 evidence to support the claim that they meant to do this, whereas we have evidence. The evidence we have is that it's not listed anywhere in any of the changes to the game since release. Therefore all known evidence points toward that they didn't mean for this to happen. There is no way they would change the hitbox of a move in a patch. Not a chance in hell. That would require an insane amount of effort and time for one small change.

And if they did, they would tell us. They were very vocal about Sub's changes. A cooldown on the klone, and it now goes away on block. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say they made such a huge change in the same patch to the same character regarding the same move, and didn't tell us?

Changing a hitbox takes like five seconds, it's a value you can simply alter, you don't have to add anything, and that's a very common change fighting games make in patches.

"The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence" applies to your claims here. NRS not saying they made something deliberate does not prove it wasn't, it's not even evidence one way or the other, it's evidence that didn't say anything about it. Otherwise, I apparently have "proof" about a lot of unintentional stuff in the game, such being able to change the block advantage of Erron's coin shots by shooting your opponent closer to the ground, in fact I have more "proof" of that than this ice clone business, because the menu frame data says coin shot is like -12 or -14, and that's it. Except, again, it doesn't matter, it makes that move have a point unique to itself, and intentional or not, it's in the game. Again, Sub's clone "issues" do not make him bad in anyway, he's still extremely good, the only difference is, now you are rewarded for properly spacing yourself, and punished for improperly doing so.

The point of whether it's intentional is a moot point, completely unrelated to if the game is better or worse for it being in. That is the discussion that should be happening, whether Sub is made more braindead with it fixed, does he need it fixed to be competitive, etc, because those are actual discussions that matter and can produce proper suggestions to NRS to improve the game.

 

[Tom Brady]

Forget guys.. fact is, people HATE the clone. They would rather it be burned to the ground then be very good.

 

[DarthVado]

Forget guys.. fact is, people HATE the clone. They would rather it be burned to the ground then be very good.

There's a lot more in this game I hate way more than the ice clone dude, I just want an actual discussion about what the problem actually is before anyone starts demanding changes.

 

[-narshkajke-]

when tom first posted that video, I know for sure people gonna do their damnest to disapprove the valid reasoning, and the proof that brady shown by calling out words like balancing, he still good despite having broken klone, by design, and complained how klone could destroy their char without any options left.
The thing is the logic behind klone is always since MK3: if you touch it you get frozen
regarding the klone, it's disappear on block and have 2 sec cooldown, sub have to be extra careful to dish out klone, and it's not just klone out now sub win, there's a mind game and finesse that sub player have to apply in order to get results. Klone can be blown out by guarding next to it, by multi hitting projectile, teleport, ex moves, and sometimes well placed jump kick, so there's options for player to get out for sure. but now you can poke sub straight bypassing the klone, so it's clear as day that it's not working as it supposed to be.
So why all the hate for klone?

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Oh man this thread became a mess quick like Nesquik.

Try to keep the discussion cool gents, or you'll feel the chill of despair tingling all throughout your bodies.

In all seriousness, the hitbox/hurtbox shit makes sense, but likely when adjusting clone, NRS might of messed up coding it (hey not the first time so) to where Sub's hurtbox and clone's hitbox overlap or some other type of goofy shit. There are a lot of moves that have these obnoxious hitboxes AND hurtboxes. Weren't we just talking about this the other day with jump in punches?

You can't fault Brady for pointing something out that does hurt the character a bit. Though I will say there's really nothing more to be said to this matter. Clearly something is up, or this is intended. Who knows? Paulo does. But getting info out of Paulo sometimes, even when asking nicely can be like pulling teeth. Probably annoyed with half of us already!

I would actually like to see MORE input from NRS employees about stuff like this, or just make an official forum or something. No other developer is this quiet for so long about stuff like glitches, what was intended, what wasn't etc... I get they're working on two characters, but really?

I dunno, submit a bug ticket to WB Games?

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with any of your logic. Standing behind my klone is not improper spacing.

Changing a hitbox takes like five seconds, it's a value you can simply alter, you don't have to add anything, and that's a very common change fighting games make in patches.

"The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence" applies to your claims here. NRS not saying they made something deliberate does not prove it wasn't, it's not even evidence one way or the other, it's evidence that didn't say anything about it. Otherwise, I apparently have "proof" about a lot of unintentional stuff in the game, such being able to change the block advantage of Erron's coin shots by shooting your opponent closer to the ground, in fact I have more "proof" of that than this ice clone business, because the menu frame data says coin shot is like -12 or -14, and that's it. Except, again, it doesn't matter, it makes that move have a point unique to itself, and intentional or not, it's in the game. Again, Sub's clone "issues" do not make him bad in anyway, he's still extremely good, the only difference is, now you are rewarded for properly spacing yourself, and punished for improperly doing so.

The point of whether it's intentional is a moot point, completely unrelated to if the game is better or worse for it being in. That is the discussion that should be happening, whether Sub is made more braindead with it fixed, does he need it fixed to be competitive, etc, because those are actual discussions that matter and can produce proper suggestions to NRS to improve the game.

Did you even watch Tom's videos? Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that standing behind the klone (not in the klone, behind it) is improper spacing?

 

[DarthVado]

when tom first posted that video, I know for sure people gonna do their damnest to disapprove the valid reasoning, and the proof that brady shown by calling out words like balancing, he still good despite having broken klone, by design, and complained how klone could destroy their char without any options left.
The thing is the logic behind klone is always since MK3: if you touch it you get frozen
regarding the klone, it's disappear on block and have 2 sec cooldown, sub have to be extra careful to dish out klone, and it's not just klone out now sub win, there's a mind game and finesse that sub player have to apply in order to get results. Klone can be blown out by guarding next to it, by multi hitting projectile, teleport, ex moves, and sometimes well placed jump kick, so there's options for player to get out for sure. but now you can poke sub straight bypassing the klone, so it's clear as day that it's not working as it supposed to be.
So why all the hate for klone?

We aren't playing MK3 tho, so I don't get why you keep bringing that up.

But yes, there are options out, as there should be, but Sub also has plenty of options to keep you locked down, so it's not an issue. And as I said, nothing is clear, hit boxes are not always where they look like they are, that is not a bug, that is not a fault, that is often intentional balancing changes after release, hell, it's often on release too. You can't always have something hit exactly where it looks like it should because sometimes that proves to cause issues.

 

[DarthVado]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with any of your logic. Standing behind my klone is not improper spacing.


Did you even watch Tom's videos? Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that standing behind the klone (not in the klone, behind it) is improper spacing?

Yeah I am, because he's getting hit when he doesn't need to be. He only talks about B3 as a low option for mix ups, when it's not, he has D4 which will give you a mix up after. There's several options here, and if you choose to ignore them just because you want to only go for what you want to, that's your fault, and you should be punished for it.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

If you seriously think it's okay for characters to be able to poke through the klone and that me standing behind the klone (again behind, not in the klone, behind it) is improper spacing then I'm done with this debate.

A sad day for logic and reason, for it has failed.

 

[-narshkajke-]

We aren't playing MK3 tho, so I don't get why you keep bringing that up.

But yes, there are options out, as there should be, but Sub also has plenty of options to keep you locked down, so it's not an issue. And as I said, nothing is clear, hit boxes are not always where they look like they are, that is not a bug, that is not a fault, that is often intentional balancing changes after release, hell, it's often on release too. You can't always have something hit exactly where it looks like it should because sometimes that proves to cause issues.

I'm trying to show you that the logic of klone since it's conception, and this is my first mention of MK3, so I'm not "keep bringing that up" as what you said.
well yeah I agree, of course the hitbox of klone perhaps should not be the whole statue, but the thing that I can't agree is for people to poke their way out of klone bypassing it completely, that is all.

 

[DarthVado]

If you seriously think it's okay for characters to be able to poke through the klone and that me standing behind the klone (again behind, not in the klone, behind it) is improper spacing then I'm done with this debate.

A sad day for logic and reason, for it has failed.

K

 

[DarthVado]

I'm trying to show you that the logic of klone since it's conception, and this is my first mention of MK3, so I'm not "keep bringing that up" as what you said.
well yeah I agree, of course the hitbox of klone perhaps should not be the whole statue, but the thing that I can't agree is for people to poke their way out of klone bypassing it completely, that is all.

Okay, but I'm trying to tell you the issue isn't the clone, it's the hitboxes on the limbs being used to poke through. Which is shown in my video since many attacks can not even reach Sub before getting frozen. I tested it further and they still get frozen even if Sub is directly in the clone, so that means the hit box for the clone is there, but not the hit box for the limbs, and I do think NRS should do something about that.