Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[DarthVado]

I don't understand how Tom Brady can say he's wrong when he proved the ice clone will freeze well before Tom's supposed 'clone needs to be hit in the back' conundrum.

Obviously, the issue isn't that Sub-Zero's clone has a stupid hitbox. It's that some moves have stupid hurtboxes. Some moves get frozen before Sub-Zero blocks it and others do not. This is mostly dependant on the hurtbox on the move in question or, in these examples, the lack of well defined hurtboxes on certain moves and limbs.

Exactly, they are two different things. Fix the hurtboxes, fix the issue.

 

[Charybdis]

How dare he have opinions on the gaming forum.

What the fuck is his problem?

Only top 8 placers should have opinions or be allowed to talk about MK X.

Never fear, I'm on your side.

You shouldn't have to explain why you feel those match ups are bad and actually have a discussion. Rather, simply name dropping your sparring partners and saying, "If you're not playing these guys, you're not playing the match up" is enough.

I know right? Only players who humiliate themselves in petrol stations on the internet TRULY understand what Sub Zero needs. And he needs a press-to-win button

 

[Bender]

How dare he have opinions on the gaming forum.

What the fuck is his problem?

Only top 8 placers should have opinions or be allowed to talk about MK X.

Never fear, I'm on your side.

You shouldn't have to explain why you feel those match ups are bad and actually have a discussion. Rather, simply name dropping your sparring partners and saying, "If you're not playing these guys, you're not playing the match up" is enough.

NRS cares more about the 99.5% of MKX players who aren't at the pro level and aren't going to implement these changes unless the mid tier community can deal with them as well. It's just a fact. If subzero was one of the most technical/ hard to use characters in the game, this would be different, but he's pretty easy to pickup.

I don't think it's been pointed out that if Subzero becomes a tournament viable character (I already think he has enough tools as is, but this isn't really the point), but wrecks the online community, NRS will ultimately suffer and in the long run the whole community will suffer.

Just food for thought.

 

[Rude]

I know right? Only players who humiliate themselves in petrol stations on the internet TRULY understand what Sub Zero needs. And he needs a press-to-win button

I wouldn't go that far.

Look, everyone deserves an opinion. We should be allowed to disagree.

We should have to defend our position with logic and facts.

Not cite who we play against and condescendingly dismiss fellow players.

How the fuck does that help anyone?

 

[RVB]

I know right? Only players who humiliate themselves in petrol stations on the internet TRULY understand what Sub Zero needs. And he needs a press-to-win button

And what this forum needs is a press-to-STFU button... oh wait here it is let me press that .

 

[Rude]

NRS cares more about the 99.5% of MKX players who aren't at the pro level and aren't going to implement these changes unless the mid tier community can deal with them as well. It's just a fact. If subzero was one of the most technical/ hard to use characters in the game, this would be different, but he's pretty easy to pickup.

I don't think it's been pointed out that if Subzero becomes a tournament viable character (I already think he has enough tools as is, but this isn't really the point), but wrecks the online community, NRS will ultimately suffer and in the long run the whole community will suffer.

Just food for thought.

Jacqui's guns were the most complained about thing from casuals.

They remain unchanged.

 

[Charybdis]

I wouldn't go that far.

Look, everyone deserves an opinion. We should be allowed to disagree.

We should have to defend our position with logic and facts.

Not cite who we play against and condescendingly dismiss fellow players.

How the fuck does that help anyone?

I'm only joking, though to hear the Subbie community tell it the guy 's bottom 5.

It's just hilarious to watch TYM consume itself again, while Brady has a nervous breakdown every other day and gets ever closer to being totally insufferable.

 

[ChaosTheory]

MK9 Sub was a lot more interesting to play. 2,2 and 2,1 strings were more fun than this b2 and b3,3 fishing bullshit. Clone was more fun when it was a challenge to slowly work opponents to the wall to set up shop. Different clone poses and air clones were more interesting, too.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

MK9 Sub was a lot more interesting to play. 2,2 and 2,1 strings were more fun than this b2 and b3,3 fishing bullshit. Clone was more fun when it was a challenge to slowly work opponents to the wall to set up shop. Different clone poses and air clones were more interesting, too.

I actually agree with this lol. But I'm warming up to new sub. Still don't think he'll end up as fun as MK9.

 

[Tom Brady]

As I said in my initial post, these things are not universal, just because Erron's kicks can't go through, doesn't mean someone else's can, and same for punches.

But as I also said, the issue still comes around to character attack hit boxes, NRS should fix the disjointed hitboxes on these attacks, thus solving your issue, and making footsies much stronger. So regardless if I'm wrong about the clone itself, that still is the best way to resolve this, as I see it.

Also, you can mix people up from a safe range in the corner, use D4 for your low attack, then on hit go for your next mix up.

It has NOTHING to do with the attack hitboxes.. Dude.. if you make the attack hitboxes bigger they jab will hit from sweep range. You just do not understand the reall issue. they just need to fix how the clone checks if SZ is hit/blocks or the opponent should freeze as well as add a bit more collision to the clone itself.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I actually agree with this lol. But I'm warming up to new sub. Still don't think he'll end up as fun as MK9.

Well its the nature of MKX. You can't be methodical like that. And to be fair, i havent had near the opportunity to play as much as i did in MK9.

But block-strings and hit-confirms to move them back doesn't seem to be the deal anymore. I see myself doing it, and I watch others do it... throw out b2 and see if it hits. Or how about the amount of times you see b3,3, Ice Blast thrown out on block, or b3,3, Clone on hit. It's a bunch of just throwing shit out as guesses.

Not as interesting for my taste.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Well its the nature of MKX. You can't be methodical like that. And to be fair, i havent had near the opportunity to play as much as i did in MK9.

But block-strings and hit-confirms to move them back doesn't seem to be the deal anymore. I see myself doing it, and I watch others do it... throw out b2 and see if it hits. Or how about the amount of times you see b3,3, Ice Blast thrown out on block, or b3,3, Clone on hit. It's a bunch of just throwing shit out as guesses.

Not as interesting for my taste.

Yeah, idk how many times I've told my STB clanmates that the reason I don't main sub in MKX is because he just doesn't feel as fun as MK9. I'm a methodical type player and like playing defensively. But this game doesn't reward that type of play.

I even play cassie with the staggers and defensively and whiff punish like I"m playing MK9 sub.

 

[Bender]

Jacqui's guns were the most complained about thing from casuals.

They remain unchanged.

Keyword being "were". It's a lot easier to duck a projectile and most of the casual community has figured this out by now. I'm not saying this game should be built for scrubs. But NRS has to find a balance between casual and high level play.

Overall, I think NRS is getting better and better with their balances in each new fighter they release. Just waiting for them to release a game where there aren't those 3- 5 characters you roll your eyes when you have to fight. Although, I guess that's a subjective statement.

 

[DarthVado]

It has NOTHING to do with the attack hitboxes.. Dude.. if you make the attack hitboxes bigger they jab will hit from sweep range. You just do not understand the reall issue. they just need to fix how the clone checks if SZ is hit/blocks or the opponent should freeze as well as add a bit more collision to the clone itself.

See but when you say something like this, it makes me believe there's some sort of communication issue going on here between you and me. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with the "attack" of an attack. You seem to think I'm talking about buffing an attack range, but I'm not. I'm talking about fixing the area where the limbs being used for attacks can get hit, which won't change any aspect of their offensive capabilities.

 

[DarthVado]

Keyword being "were". It's a lot easier to duck a projectile and most of the casual community has figured this out by now. I'm not saying this game should be built for scrubs. But NRS has to find a balance between casual and high level play.

Overall, I think NRS is getting better and better with their balances in each new fighter they release. Just waiting for them to release a game where there aren't those 3- 5 characters you roll your eyes when you have to fight. Although, I guess that's a subjective statement.

I actually agree, so far I've been pretty happy with the patches, and my main, Erron, was nerfed in nearly every one.

 

[sling1414]

No offense, but the comparison is a little weak. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but are you 100% sure the NRS dev team didn't intend for this change? When they made the patch, clone was intentionally designed to go away if sub blocked an attack. Since you can't make sub block an attack (without phantom arms or a few variation specific attacks) before you touch the clone, it may have been somewhat intentional in design. I could see it either way.

Again, I can't speak for NRS. What I do know is you have what you have for the moment. Honestly the entire community is aware that this thread is a hot topic - some agree, some don't. I'd look at it as an opportunity to try out other tech/ setups and if you get a stronger version of klone patched, you will have found additional setups to add to your gameplan and be stronger with his fundamentals when klone is not out.

Im sorry but if NRS purposely designed a move to not hit where the move is visible then that is some of the worst game design I have ever heard of. I know this isn't a perfect comparison but Riot Games gets a ton of shit for phantom and missing hit boxes on skills, and rightfully so, it messes with the flow of the game and makes the players on both ends depending on the scenario feel cheated.

Im not saying you are wrong, you could be right that NRS decided it would be better if the clone didn't cover so much ground, but if they decided to do that by making part of it non existent while leaving the visual aspect of the move the same size that is flat out lazy and piss poor game design and should not be supported.

 

[DarthVado]

Im sorry but if NRS purposely designed a move to not hit where the move is visible then that is some of the worst game design I have ever heard of. I know this isn't a perfect comparison but Riot Games gets a ton of shit for phantom and missing hit boxes on skills, and rightfully so, it messes with the flow of the game and makes the players on both ends depending on the scenario feel cheated.

Im not saying you are wrong, you could be right that NRS decided it would be better if the clone didn't cover so much ground, but if they decided to do that by making part of it non existent while leaving the visual aspect of the move the same size that is flat out lazy and piss poor game design and should not be supported.

That's actually not bad design at all, it's the reality of game design. NRS is not going to pay a shit ton of money to put in a new clone model for the sake of a slight hit box change, that's completely ridiculous to expect of them. This is also a common occurrence in many other fighting games, just because a move visibly looks like it hits somewhere, doesn't mean it does. This is for many reasons, including balance issues, sometimes moves need to have hitboxes adjusted for the sake of balance, it doesn't even require much effort on the part of players to adjust to it either, every other community does it no problem, so we should be able to as well.

 

[DarthVado]

That's actually not bad design at all, it's the reality of game design. NRS is not going to pay a shit ton of money to put in a new clone model for the sake of a slight hit box change, that's completely ridiculous to expect of them. This is also a common occurrence in many other fighting games, just because a move visibly looks like it hits somewhere, doesn't mean it does. This is for many reasons, including balance issues, sometimes moves need to have hitboxes adjusted for the sake of balance, it doesn't even require much effort on the part of players to adjust to it either, every other community does it no problem, so we should be able to as well.

Oh and before anyone says anything, this is not me saying the clone's hit box was changed or it's an issue, this is me responding to a specific comment.

 

[WakeUp DP]

I love how theres about 270 comments and 12 pages yet your clips only got 77views lol.

TYM doesn't even read OPs anymore.

 

[GAV]

Tom Brady's stream was very entertaining today. He was playing some absolute killers and it seems to have finally clicked for him.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

looks like they fucked up subzero harder than i thought, people were bitching about subzero ice klone despite subzero not being overpowered even with klone, scorpion for example owned subzero since launch but they still nerf sub this hard. sad.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Suggesting NRS should not fix an unfair bug and instead we should all adapt.

Lol people really hate SZ don't they?

 

[DarthVado]

Suggesting NRS should not fix an unfair bug and instead we should all adapt.

Lol people really hate SZ don't they?

Hey, I adapted to all the Erron nerfs without complaining, and so can you be too.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Hey, I adapted to all the Erron nerfs without complaining, and so can you be too.

You would complain if anything hindering Erron's game was a bug and not working as intended. There's a big difference between a nerf and a bug. We already took nerfs, so they should at least fix the bug.

 

[DarthVado]

You would complain if anything hindering Erron's game was a bug and not working as intended. There's a big difference between a nerf and a bug. We already took nerfs, so they should at least fix the bug.

Except this isn't a bug, and Erron took a huge hit to his mix up game and oki. Command grab now gives up pressure unless you spend a bar, and he lost pretty much all safe mix ups without meter. Now, both of those are good things to me, because I enjoy a good nerf on my main if it makes me main a smarter character, which is what those nerfs did.

Erron still has the tools he needs to succeed, he just needs to be a bit smarter about using them, which is the exact case here with Sub Zero. Sub Zero is a perfectly fine character even now, and he still has all the tools he needs to win. I even explained exactly why you still have a mix up game in the corner from the safe range Tom talks about, you just don't get to always convert a full combo without taking any real risk now. You either go overhead for a combo, or D4 for a low into mix up into combo, or walk forward grab, among several other options. Also, I play Gunslinger, so all those hits to Erron made what was already considered a horrible variation even worse.