Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Sub Zero is probably one of the most herpaderp characters in this game, just so happens kenshi got buffed to herpaderp status and sz cant herpaderp vs kenshi properly. SZ and Kenshi both need nerfs.

^

"SZ and Kenshi both need nerfs."

LOL this guy

 

[BloodyNights]

And speaking of Mk9 lets not forget how many SZ players told me how it was for most of the games life, until in the end they realized the truth which is that he had more issues then they thought.

What im saying is that your saying the equivalent of an MK9 SZ player saying "SZ does ok against kitana and i've played plenty at high level" and yet say this having never played 16 bit, CD prime, etc...

I play online all the time and I watch EVERY SZ player because I am always looking for new ideas. SZ's have been losing to Sonya once they get to the high levels of play. Happens every week in ESL, happened at Combo Breaker, even Rebello spoke to me about issues with Sonya.

Sonya is a character that cannot punish ANY string into a clone cancel and yet she is still consistently beating just about every SZ player but 1 at very high level. this proves that even when you can't punish clone cancels that SZ still does not dominate. The clone needs to freeze you when you touch it.

I've played 16 bit though... ehhh regardless I was looking for reasons, what was that one Sub-Zero doing differently that was allowing them to win? Also isn't ESL an online tournament until they do a bigger event that requires face to face interaction? I place Sonya, and Kung Lao on a higher playing field online.

But that's besides the point, anything that Sub-Zero did differently that makes them win consistently against Sonya?

 

[Tom Brady]

There is though man. Hitbox =/= hurtbox. Disjointed hitboxes are a thing in fighting games, ESPECIALLY NRS games.
The entire crux of this thread comes down to the fact that after you setup a clone in a corner setup and do a b2, IF the block that 50/50, you're being forced to block a followup (or can be punished outright in a few matchups) and corner pressure basically ends. But you're making it sound like you have no other option than to go in with b2, when in reality there is a plethora of mixups that you can perform, and if you worried about them making a good read and poking out as you're closing the gap to perform them, all it takes is some good footwork and a whiff punish to blow them up. I think that's a pretty good and balanced mind game, and I don't think things are as dire as they are being made out to be.

No, thats not the issue in the image. The clone has NO collision in that region at all. The clone's collision is very small in general which was fine because it worked right when it stayed on block.

 

[Tom Brady]

I've played 16 bit though... ehhh regardless I was looking for reasons, what was that one Sub-Zero doing differently that was allowing them to win? Also isn't ESL an online tournament until they do a bigger event that requires face to face interaction? I place Sonya, and Kung Lao on a higher playing field online.

But that's besides the point, anything that Sub-Zero did differently that makes them win consistently against Sonya?

Im not saying you didnt, im using it as an example. Again, this is why i tend to stay away from SZ forums. People always tend to argue "my exp is just as much as yours". Its not a subject Im comfortable with because there is no nice way to say "no, it isnt".

I am speaking from a place of much more exp then you have at levels of play higher then you have faced. I'm not trying to get into a "whos opinion is more valid" conversation. I do find your opinion valid, you just come from a place where you dont realize the character doesnt dominate like you think he does. This is why its hard to have this debate, you see SZ as much better then he really is.

 

[TakeAChance]

I am so god damned confused right now. What is being argued at this current moment?

I feel like the conversation isn't even about the clone anymore.

 

[BloodyNights]

Im not saying you didnt, im using it as an example. Again, this is why i tend to stay away from SZ forums. People always tend to argue "my exp is just as much as yours". Its not a subject Im comfortable with because there is no nice way to say "no, it isnt".

I am speaking from a place of much more exp then you have at levels of play higher then you have faced. I'm not trying to get into a "whos opinion is more valid" conversation. I do find your opinion valid, you just come from a place where you dont realize the character doesnt dominate like you think he does. This is why its hard to have this debate, you see SZ as much better then he really is.

Well, I wasn't exactly saying your opinion was wrong, or debating how much experience either of us had. All I was asking for was your opinions on the matter, I was trying to get why you think he doesn't win in the match ups using your experience. Instead of you coming after my level of experience. My area of expertise is Inferno Scorpion. Yours is Grandmaster Sub-Zero. I know I don't have as much experience as you have with the character. I've got what I've learned from your Sub-Zero guide, and watching Sub-Zero, and playing as him in roughly 500 games, I'm sure you have 5 times that much. Semi Evil Ryu is the GM Sub-Zero I face on the regular. I consider him high level. But again, just asking what your opinions are on characters, not who's experience is higher.

 

[Tom Brady]

Well, I wasn't exactly saying your opinion was wrong, or debating how much experience either of us had. All I was asking for was your opinions on the matter, I was trying to get why you think he doesn't win in the match ups using your experience. Instead of you coming after my level of experience. My area of expertise is Inferno Scorpion. Yours is Grandmaster Sub-Zero. I know I don't have as much experience as you have with the character. I've got what I've learned from your Sub-Zero guide, and watching Sub-Zero, and playing as him in roughly 500 games, I'm sure you have 5 times that much. Semi Evil Ryu is the GM Sub-Zero I face on the regular. I consider him high level. But again, just asking what your opinions are on characters, not who's experience is higher.

I dont feel the game is old enough to provide an accurate point by point reason as to why SZ wins or loses anything. I can give some of the more obvious reasons for the 7 losing mu's I listed but at this point in the game i cant go in depth on some of the matches that im on the fence about.

 

[Tom Brady]

I am so god damned confused right now. What is being argued at this current moment?

I feel like the conversation isn't even about the clone anymore.

Im arguing for the clones collision still. other kind of went of track by saying that sub "dominates" so many matches already and that the clone shouldnt actually freeze ppl who touch it.

 

[SLH7671]

So basically, you want ice clone buffed so you can trap people behind it so they can't have and offensive options whatsoever. Got it. Just play the game and quit whining about your already powerful character.

If you're good enough you can adapt and find ways to nullify the trap, a matter of practicing and finding a solution.

 

[BloodyNights]

Im arguing for the clones collision still. other kind of went of track by saying that sub "dominates" so many matches already and that the clone shouldnt actually freeze ppl who touch it.

Hey! To be fair I said fix the clone, and buff the weaker members of the cast

I dont feel the game is old enough to provide an accurate point by point reason as to why SZ wins or loses anything. I can give some of the more obvious reasons for the 7 losing mu's I listed but at this point in the game i cant go in depth on some of the matches that im on the fence about.

Understandable, I guess we will have to wait until the game evolves, and my guess is those 7 losing matches will magically receive more and more nerfs as time goes by.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Im like 99% sure now that being able to poke through is an intended effect. Take a look at this. Im using Kotal here and my D4 hits. However my B4 gets frozen. Same exact animation for both moves, so you must assume same hitbox? D4 is a poke whereas B4 is a hard knockdown.

Here's the problem with that though...

you're touching the clone before you even hit sub... yet, you don't get frozen. Seems pretty BS to me.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Tom why keep bothering with these scrubs? They just dont get it, why I dropped Subz and picked up Kung Jin & Quan Chi.

 

[Big Pampering]

Tom why keep bothering with these scrubs? They just dont get it, why I dropped Subz and picked up Kung Jin & Quan Chi.

Just to ask for quan chi buffs anyway.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Just to ask for quan chi buffs anyway.

Tier whore will always tier whore. At least if they don't get any they are still top tier chars

 

[UsedForGlue]

Unbreakable's damage is low, takes a bar to reduce damage, and is missing the armor launcher. Cryomancer normal hammer is completely worthless, the uppercut is to slow to be a consistent anti-air, and the Cold Blooded string needs to be advantage on hit.

I agree that GM needs F42~ex clone to be adv and keep in mind that several characters use meter for adv. Shinnok, KL, Erron Black, Quan Chi, etc but not SZ. Nope, SZ has to use the bar and still block while the clone again goes away. But the real issue is the the clone's collision was clearly designed for a clone that does not go away on block. The collision needs fixing... I dont understand how anyone can argue that the clone should not freeze you of you attack it with a punch or kick.

Absolutely, too much time was spent trying to nerf the klone, while his other variations have completely suffered. I am still confident that NRS will look at the rest of him and just round him off.

Unbreakable needs a damage buff while in MB Aura, or something to make his Aura viable, possibly give him frame traps from F4, F42 and B12 into Aura on block. The parry seriously needs look at, especially when you parry a projectile, you need too instantly recover and break out, and maybe the MB version parrying a jump in.

Cryomancer needs a safe block string with the normal hammer, Cold Blooded needs to be advantage on hit, F122 needs to be -6 and allow a MB hammer block string that opponents can't jump out of, the D2 around 9-10 frames, and the Air hammer really should be Overhead then Low, and safe on block, like earth shaker.

These are not buffs, anyone that has a clue will look at the moves of character and realise this is how his move set should work. He remains me of Cyber Sub Zero at the moment...

 

[-narshkajke-]

So if this gets patched how will anyone hit sub on block while clone is out? From the video it seems that hitbox of atacks don't get frozen and it's totally OK otherwise why is it OK not to freeze KJ staff but freeze erron hand?

you touch klone you got freeze is it that hard of a logic to understand, kung jin staff is not part of his body, its his tools.

 

[Belial]

Not enough people in this thread asking to LET THE GAME EVOLVE.
Where are you when we need you? Do you all exclusively visit Kotal Kahn forum???

Its not lack of tools makes SZ not viable but strength of certain characters that need nerf and dont get one.
Giving advantage on block to 50/50 chars?? DAMAGE BUFF for aura?? Please dont turn this game into Injustice 2. Everyone is broken =/= balance. I'd avoid such game at all costs
My only hope is that NRS will nerf out all supidity in the game, not add more of it.

 

[sling1414]

Not enough people in this thread asking to LET THE GAME EVOLVE.
Where are you when we need you? Do you all exclusively visit Kotal Kahn forum???

Its not lack of tools makes SZ not viable but strength of certain characters that need nerf and dont get one.
Giving advantage on block to 50/50 chars?? DAMAGE BUFF for aura?? Please dont turn this game into Injustice 2. Everyone is broken =/= balance. I'd avoid such game at all costs
My only hope is that NRS will nerf out all supidity in the game, not add more of it.

You are absolutely insane, im no pro player like @Tom Brady here, but I have played a ton of Sub zero through every MK game since MK2 and I have never seen someone say this about a BUG!

The klone is a simple concept, whether it goes away on block or not, if you touch ANY PART OF THE KLONE, you are then frozen, that's how the move is meant to work, that's how its always worked, and that's how it should be working now.

The games meta evolving will not magically fix the clone's broken hit detection, if anything ppl will find more ways around the klone making it worse

If scorpions spear had a 30% chance of not pulling the opponent to him (STAY OVER THERE) when it hits would you be saying "let the game evolve?" NO BECAUSE THE SPEAR IS MEANT TO PULL YOU 100% OF THE TIME, that's how the move is meant to work and that's how it should work, end of discussion.

 

[Mark von Zoftmutter]

If scorpions spear had a 30% chance of not pulling the opponent to him (STAY OVER THERE) when it hits would you be saying "let the game evolve?" NO BECAUSE THE SPEAR IS MEANT TO PULL YOU 100% OF THE TIME, that's how the move is meant to work and that's how it should work, end of discussion.

Exactly!! It really fascinates me how certain people can't understand that the clone is BROKEN as it is right now. We're not saying give us back subzero from before the patch, as far as I'm concerned clone going away on block is perfectly fine.

The problem here as I see it is that nrs were just being sloppy with applying this "nerf" and they haven't taken this problem into account. I doubt they did this on purpose though, but that doesn't change the fact it needs to be fixed ASAP.

 

[learis1]

So I'm just watching the original videos. It looks like the only explanation is that the character's hurtboxes are not touching the clone when their hitbox touches SZ. Is there something wrong with this? Should characters have zero ways to get out of clone pressure in the corner?

 

[mattnin]

Im not saying you didnt, im using it as an example. Again, this is why i tend to stay away from SZ forums. People always tend to argue "my exp is just as much as yours". Its not a subject Im comfortable with because there is no nice way to say "no, it isnt".

I am speaking from a place of much more exp then you have at levels of play higher then you have faced. I'm not trying to get into a "whos opinion is more valid" conversation. I do find your opinion valid, you just come from a place where you dont realize the character doesnt dominate like you think he does. This is why its hard to have this debate, you see SZ as much better then he really is.

You have no idea how much experience any of us have or what kind of tournaments any of us have been to. Some of us commenting here have made people like you rage quit in tournaments, so stop with your so high and mighty BS.

If you're good enough you can adapt and find ways to nullify the trap, a matter of practicing and finding a solution.

But of course, and if ice clone is buffed, it won't mean I'm giving up on Blood God Kotal in that GM SubZ matchup, just need to kick and scratch harder

 

[DoctorSexual]

Dude Tom Brady I agree with you on this subject but why come off so aggressively and dismissively to anyone who hasn't trained against your group of "top players"? Like why even post here if the opinion and idea's of those not in your elite group of players is irrelevant? Newsflash, 90% of players here are not in that group. Also, assuming this never gets fixed what is actually so bad about Sub being a middle of the pack tier character at best as you claim?

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Dude Tom Brady I agree with you on this subject but why come off so aggressively and dismissively to anyone who hasn't trained against your group of "top players"? Like why even post here if the opinion and idea's of those not in your elite group of players is irrelevant? Newsflash, 90% of players here are not in that group. Also, assuming this never gets fixed what is actually so bad about Sub being a middle of the pack tier character at best as you claim?

Actually I think most people Brady has mentioned are in fact on TYM. Especially the GGA guys.

 

[sling1414]

Exactly!! It really fascinates me how certain people can't understand that the clone is BROKEN as it is right now. We're not saying give us back subzero from before the patch, as far as I'm concerned clone going away on block is perfectly fine.

The problem here as I see it is that nrs were just being sloppy with applying this "nerf" and they haven't taken this problem into account. I doubt they did this on purpose though, but that doesn't change the fact it needs to be fixed ASAP.

Yeah exactly, I don't even know why this is being debated. Is it purely because Tom was the one to post it? Seriously...

 

[darthbrooks]

I'm 12912% certain that anyone downplaying the effect of this on SZ GMs validity have no clue whatsoever, no matter how many matches against famous people they've played. Thank the lord I dropped SZ for greener pastures.

As someone stated before, it could be that they just implemented a simple rect check where the hitboxes are, and if both SZs hitbox and the ice clone is detected, SZs hitbox has priority and the move counts as a blocked hit -> clone disappears. In that case, adding a simple proximity check would suffice to negate the weird priority behavior. If clone hitbox is closer than SZ hitbox and current limb isn't disjointed -> freeze, otherwise count as block. This would not break the intended behavior for, say, jump in kicks, but would keep characters from just doing a jab through the clone.