Street Fighter V General Discussion

[Johnny Based Cage]

This game has literally the worst hit boxes of any fighter I’ve ever seen. AA jabs still trade with cross-ups where you’re literally behind them and they’re throwing a punch facing the wrong way, neutral jumps will connect with you just the same when you’ve crossed under so you’re on the other side, the side of a dragon punch will hit you when you’re a foot away, etc. It’s laughable.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

Just ask this again just in case anyone knows, how many frames does moving your character take? I mean like on the dpad or whatever going from neutral to crouch? Back to forward, etc? I remember I read somewhere that it doesn't have frames when moving, that it was instantaneous, anyone know?

 

[FL Rushdown]

Just ask this again just in case anyone knows, how many frames does moving your character take? I mean like on the dpad or whatever going from neutral to crouch? Back to forward, etc? I remember I read somewhere that it doesn't have frames when moving, that it was instantaneous, anyone know?

The animation has frames but you can cancel the animation at anytime into anything so it’s basically 0

 

[ILuvFightGames]

The animation has frames but you can cancel the animation at anytime into anything so it’s basically 0

Ok thanks bro. I was wondering like if I'm crouching and someone uses an overhead on me then that's where frames would matter in the crouching to standing block etc. But yea in that case the animation would be greatly faster than the startup of any move.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

What did you guys expect? He has more horsepower than the rest of the cast.

Seriously though I get in a way what both of you are saying. There's usually a character that is called a noob killer if you will, a character that seems too strong from the outside but when you start finding exploits then becomes an average character. Blanka in sf 2 is a perfect example, he scared people when someone chose him but once you started getting better at the game you were like "meh blanka". Not saying any of you are wrong and I understand both of you guys, I just say it's too early to see what Abigail will do.

Abi isnt just a newb killer. The shit he does that's so ridiculous works vs the best players in the world at the absolute top levels of competition. That's not noob killing. That's not reliance on gimmicks. That's just a character doing insane shit.

Ive typed up like five versions of this post and deleted them because I cant find a good way to say what I want to say.. So Ima just leave it at this:

Abi is a problem.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

Abi isnt just a newb killer. The shit he does that's so ridiculous works vs the best players in the world at the absolute top levels of competition. That's not noob killing. That's not reliance on gimmicks. That's just a character doing insane shit.

Ive typed up like five versions of this post and deleted them because I cant find a good way to say what I want to say.. So Ima just leave it at this:

Abi is a problem.

Yea, I get what you're saying, and seen it also, however Abi was hardly used prior to AE (we'll not as now anyways) that it's going to take some matchups and labbing to do with him to see where he is most vulnerable at, even if you're infiltration. I know you clarify that he might not even be the best character, but you just hate how he wins, I get that too, but same thing was said for s2 Rog and if top level players can't win a damn thing with these ridiculous characters then that also speaks volumes about adapting etc, because even Xian won events with FANG so I think I'll wait a bit to see what I'd nerf on Abi.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Yea, I get what you're saying, and seen it also, however Abi was hardly used prior to AE (we'll not as now anyways) that it's going to take some matchups and labbing to do with him to see where he is most vulnerable at, even if you're infiltration. I know you clarify that he might not even be the best character, but you just hate how he wins, I get that too, but same thing was said for s2 Rog and if top level players can't win a damn thing with these ridiculous characters then that also speaks volumes about adapting etc, because even Xian won events with FANG so I think I'll wait a bit to see what I'd nerf on Abi.

Rog was a load of horseshit too.

Winning with a character has never been a good judge of how ridiculous they are or arent.. Time and time again there have been characters that were just outrageous, but they didn't manage to win anything. Played at the highest levels of competition, PAST A CERTAIN POINT, character strength isn't as relevant since the nature of the game itself is entirely different and its far more about out playing, than out-tooling/charactering, your opponent. Obviously characters need a base set of tools and strengths to allow this in the first place, but what I mean is provided the characters are strong enough, excessive strength isn't AS relevant - else youd just see the entire top competitive scene all playing the 2-3 characters that were believed to be the strongest, and they'd all shift whenever that strata changes - exceptions being loyalists.

Anyway, I'll let the subject go. Im confident time will show me correct, and if it doesnt, someone @ me here and I'll come in and apologize, say I was wrong and acknowledge that fact. But my opinion remains - Abi is a bad look for the game.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

Rog was a load of horseshit too.

Winning with a character has never been a good judge of how ridiculous they are or arent.. Time and time again there have been characters that were just outrageous, but they didn't manage to win anything. Played at the highest levels of competition, PAST A CERTAIN POINT, character strength isn't as relevant since the nature of the game itself is entirely different and its far more about out playing, than out-tooling/charactering, your opponent. Obviously characters need a base set of tools and strengths to allow this in the first place, but what I mean is provided the characters are strong enough, excessive strength isn't AS relevant - else youd just see the entire top competitive scene all playing the 2-3 characters that were believed to be the strongest, and they'd all shift whenever that strata changes - exceptions being loyalists.

Anyway, I'll let the subject go. Im confident time will show me correct, and if it doesnt, someone @ me here and I'll come in and apologize, say I was wrong and acknowledge that fact. But my opinion remains - Abi is a bad look for the game.

While I think this post is excellent, I do have to disagree about how winning with a character isn't a good judge about a characters strenght, while I think it's the players skill primarily, how any character has tools to actually win is very indicative, there have been amazing players who have won events with characters who aren't considered op, or top tier, however only a select few would be able to do this. Most of the time if you're on par with another player then the character can, AND has, made the difference, (remember evo 2016 when sonicfox had to go back to using alien to win evo against tm?) so yea how easy you can win with a character certainly matters. How many events would infil have won using Alex? You have good insight, and I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'd let a couple of events roll out before butchering Abi. But again I respect your opinions, it's great to look at different views on a subject we love!

 

[EntropicByDesign]

While I think this post is excellent, I do have to disagree about how winning with a character isn't a good judge about a characters strenght, while I think it's the players skill primarily, how any character has tools to actually win is very indicative, there have been amazing players who have won events with characters who aren't considered op, or top tier, however only a select few would be able to do this. Most of the time if you're on par with another player then the character can, AND has, made the difference, (remember evo 2016 when sonicfox had to go back to using alien to win evo against tm?) so yea how easy you can win with a character certainly matters. How many events would infil have won using Alex? You have good insight, and I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'd let a couple of events roll out before butchering Abi. But again I respect your opinions, it's great to look at different views on a subject we love!

I agree with you though, character power is important. But what I'm saying is that the argument "character A cant be that strong they haven't won a major" isnt a valid excuse for discounting someone being over the top. That's all I mean. That's why I said in my post that character strength, once past a certain point, is irrelevant. Ie, the character(s) have to have a certain level of power to be competitive, but beyond that, at the highest levels, its the players. Unless a character is just so out and out broken that they negate this.. We see all the time when a strong player takes a 'decent' character well into a top 16, or 8, and in some cases even wins with them.. but by the logic I am expressly trying to refute, that would mean they would be stronger/better than all the characters they beat.

There are exceptions - we see this when a character just has a shitty MU vs another character and one character's tools just negate another's in such a way that skill isn't sufficient to close the gap.

Using the Alex scenario.. Infil wouldn't have won with him necessarily because he's below the power threshold. At the highest levels of competition, when two equally skilled players meet, character strength is not heavily relevant assuming both characters are competitively viable and you arent looking at a bad MU scenario.. and even then, we routinely see extremely strong players piloting low and mid tier characters through other extremely strong players who are using the more stratified members of the top tier.

Have to leave for work. Will add more later.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

I agree with you though, character power is important. But what I'm saying is that the argument "character A cant be that strong they haven't won a major" isnt a valid excuse for discounting someone being over the top. That's all I mean. That's why I said in my post that character strength, once past a certain point, is irrelevant. Ie, the character(s) have to have a certain level of power to be competitive, but beyond that, at the highest levels, its the players. Unless a character is just so out and out broken that they negate this.. We see all the time when a strong player takes a 'decent' character well into a top 16, or 8, and in some cases even wins with them.. but by the logic I am expressly trying to refute, that would mean they would be stronger/better than all the characters they beat.

There are exceptions - we see this when a character just has a shitty MU vs another character and one character's tools just negate another's in such a way that skill isn't sufficient to close the gap.

Using the Alex scenario.. Infil wouldn't have won with him necessarily because he's below the power threshold. At the highest levels of competition, when two equally skilled players meet, character strength is not heavily relevant assuming both characters are competitively viable and you arent looking at a bad MU scenario.. and even then, we routinely see extremely strong players piloting low and mid tier characters through other extremely strong players who are using the more stratified members of the top tier.

Have to leave for work. Will add more later.

Cool I see your view, but I think there's a small part where we disagree, I believe that at the highest level, out of two players who are pretty equal in skill, the one with the strongest character has the advantage. However I do agree though that first it's skill before anything. Time and again it's proven that a good player can make a bad character work, and that's the beauty of fighting games.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Cool I see your view, but I think there's a small part where we disagree, I believe that at the highest level, out of two players who are pretty equal in skill, the one with the strongest character has the advantage. However I do agree though that first it's skill before anything. Time and again it's proven that a good player can make a bad character work, and that's the beauty of fighting games.

I don’t think relative character strength matters at all in a 1v1 situation. At that point it’s all in the individual matchup, but a “strong” or top tier character usually has a high number of even or favorable matchups.its why even though Abigail has a ton of borderline broken tools a well rounded character that doesn’t struggle in any particular matchups or in very few is going to do better intournament. Cammy, guile, rashid, stuff like that can be “weaker” than Abigail but put up better tourney results just cause of the existence of a few bad matchups.

That being said I honestly don’t think abi has too many bad matchups.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

I don’t think relative character strength matters at all in a 1v1 situation. At that point it’s all in the individual matchup, but a “strong” or top tier character usually has a high number of even or favorable matchups.its why even though Abigail has a ton of borderline broken tools a well rounded character that doesn’t struggle in any particular matchups or in very few is going to do better intournament. Cammy, guile, rashid, stuff like that can be “weaker” than Abigail but put up better tourney results just cause of the existence of a few bad matchups.

That being said I honestly don’t think abi has too many bad matchups.

I don’t think relative character strength matters at all in a 1v1 situation. At that point it’s all in the individual matchup, but a “strong” or top tier character usually has a high number of even or favorable matchups.its why even though Abigail has a ton of borderline broken tools a well rounded character that doesn’t struggle in any particular matchups or in very few is going to do better intournament. Cammy, guile, rashid, stuff like that can be “weaker” than Abigail but put up better tourney results just cause of the existence of a few bad matchups.

That being said I honestly don’t think abi has too many bad matchups.

Interesting. So if he doesn't have too many bad matchups and high level players pick him then it's fair to say we might be seeing him win some events this year. Ncr is days away so I'll be on the look out for his play. I mean don't get me wrong, Abigail, at least as of now, seems like a nightmare at any level, just think we should wait to see if he dominates or not.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Interesting. So if he doesn't have too many bad matchups and high level players pick him then it's fair to say we might be seeing him win some events this year. Ncr is days away so I'll be on the look out for his play. I mean don't get me wrong, Abigail, at least as of now, seems like a nightmare at any level, just think we should wait to see if he dominates or not.

I mean there were 7 Abigail’s in top 64 of FR. If they didn’t all eliminate each other in mirror matches you almost certainly woulda seen 1-2 make top 8.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I think he's a Pokemon.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

Which brings me to the next question, do tiers even matter? Some say they don't, some say only at the highest level, I'd love to hear what you guys think.

 

[Linkuei82]

Which brings me to the next question, do tiers even matter? Some say they don't, some say only at the highest level, I'd love to hear what you guys think.

I think the game is balance enough were anyone can win. Abigail strong but I don't think he op and is beatable. I'm interested to see how things pan out during the incoming months of CPT. Here Fchamp list which I think is pretty accurate.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

I think the game is balance enough were anyone can win. Abigail strong but I don't think he op and is beatable. I'm interested to see how things pan out during the incoming months of CPT. Here Fchamp list which I think is pretty accurate.

Cool thanks. Yea I agree, I'm excited to see how things work out in the next couple of events. Right on.

 

[LiangHuBBB]

Parrying everything in SFV

 

[Linkuei82]

Just found out that Punk just signed with Echo Fox.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Which brings me to the next question, do tiers even matter? Some say they don't, some say only at the highest level, I'd love to hear what you guys think.

I think they absolutely matter, and matter at all levels of play... But for more ephemeral reasons than a granular 'char A is the 6th best and char F is the 3rd best' and so on.

First, a basic assumption. The further up the skill ladder you climb, the more the game becomes about out thinking and out reading your opponent. The emphasis shifts from setups and flowcharts and all that and the more it becomes about 'simply' anticipating one another. Obviously some of the former remain. Some characters are based around that kind of thing, and many can be extremely powerful. But in general, the play becomes very very read-oriented.

If I successfully read you every time, if I am always one step ahead and know what you're going to do and where you're going to be, then it doesn't matter if I'm on the best or worst character in the game - provided my character has the options to capitalize on my reads. This is important in understanding why, in the highest tier of competitive play, the viability spectrum is not simply who each player thinks is the 'strongest' character in the game. Raw strength isn't as important as having the options to capitalize on reads and the power to force errors and push ones own game plan forward. Because if we assume now that the game is about anticipating one another, then the focus shifts to finding ways to fight where being anticipated doesn't matter as much, or at all. This has a lot to do with who and why competitive players choose their characters, and how they percieve and fight other players and characters.

Part 1 done doe the time being. Gotta get ready for work.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

I think they absolutely matter, and matter at all levels of play... But for more ephemeral reasons than a granular 'char A is the 6th best and char F is the 3rd best' and so on.

First, a basic assumption. The further up the skill ladder you climb, the more the game becomes about out thinking and out reading your opponent. The emphasis shifts from setups and flowcharts and all that and the more it becomes about 'simply' anticipating one another. Obviously some of the former remain. Some characters are based around that kind of thing, and many can be extremely powerful. But in general, the play becomes very very read-oriented.

If I successfully read you every time, if I am always one step ahead and know what you're going to do and where you're going to be, then it doesn't matter if I'm on the best or worst character in the game - provided my character has the options to capitalize on my reads. This is important in understanding why, in the highest tier of competitive play, the viability spectrum is not simply who each player thinks is the 'strongest' character in the game. Raw strength isn't as important as having the options to capitalize on reads and the power to force errors and push ones own game plan forward. Because if we assume now that the game is about anticipating one another, then the focus shifts to finding ways to fight where being anticipated doesn't matter as much, or at all. This has a lot to do with who and why competitive players choose their characters, and how they percieve and fight other players and characters.

Part 1 done doe the time being. Gotta get ready for work.

Awesome, yea I agree that tiers matter at all levels. Although I have read that most players, at least many, think that tiers only matter at the highest level so was curious.

 

[B. Shazzy]

woah guise is that inv from who i think it is...

hhmmmm the best cammy in korea . hmmmm but bumdown has been offline and i havent hmmm so why would he want to play me instead just an online nobody hmmm doesnt he know the legendary offline urien bumdown lul nucklu du heard his name once man

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Oh man and Koreans make about as many top 8’s in this game as Bumdown does, what a mop.

 

[FL Rushdown]

woah guise is that inv from who i think it is...

hhmmmm the best cammy in korea . hmmmm but bumdown has been offline and i havent hmmm so why would he want to play me instead just an online nobody hmmm doesnt he know the legendary offline urien bumdown lul nucklu du heard his name once man

Damn dude. Someone wants to play this game with you? Sick! Keep it up man, you too can make friends. The language barrier probably helps too since he won’t know what an idiotic cunt you are, but that doesn’t matter. I’m glad your autistic self can have friends too. That’s important. Gj.

 

[B. Shazzy]

chaaaaaaaaaaaaa



rigggggggereeeeeed