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Smoke Shake Glitch - Should it be unbanned?

CptXecution

Brain Dead Bro
Any character can just D4 him out of shake, which is what any intelligent player would do anyway vs ex shake.

No real point in having this be banned.

But there's also no point in unbanning it. This should never happen anyway.

Unless it works vs any move, including lows...in which case...it still probably doesn't matter.

@reo's new main = Smoke? Discuss.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Just a simple d4....input bug?

We all know how that ended in Toryuken.
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
If i may...

The glitch is highly impractical and you'll never hit on purpose, with exception of a jump-in punch / kick. (Lots of frames before the attack comes out, so if you read it you have plenty of time to react) So that leaves one practical way to hit this glitch, and even then, the opponent could simply empty jump into a poke.

Arguing that input bug plays a legitimate role in this glitch being "broken" because it makes you unable to counter it is laughable >.> Seriously, you can D3, D4, any low, and half of the specials break it; input bug is easy to avoid if you understand it. The glitch is easily couterable, any person who tries to do this intentionally vs. high level players will simply burn their bar, leaving them with no meter to break or use resets, which is not something Smoke wants to do.

That being said, i don't think the glitch should be unbanned simply because of the random invisibility it grants. Having full-game invis negates footsies to purely reads and removes any and all reactional counters that the opponent might have normally. This is a truley severe disadvantage for the opponent. Unlike the reset where you use meter to give you a better shot at winning one round this glitch has the potential to effect all 3 rounds

If this glitch only allowed for the free combo, and did not grant invisibility, then it's just a cheap version of CSZ's parry that has a 28f startup and is inconsistent and it probably could remain. The glitch will still happen accidentally in tournament play because you're trying to whiff punish your opponents poke when they are attempting to beat your ex shake. This glitch was discovered accidentally, happened in my very first tournament, it will happen again.

If this does remain banned it should not result in a DQ of the game, instead the match should resume from where it left off. Since the opponent takes no damage Smoke can simply back off, and let the opponent fall to the floor, therefore not affecting the game at all. (Except Smoke loses a bar)
 

REO

Undead
Any character can just D4 him out of shake, which is what any intelligent player would do anyway vs ex shake.

No real point in having this be banned.

But there's also no point in unbanning it. This should never happen anyway.

Unless it works vs any move, including lows...in which case...it still probably doesn't matter.

@reo's new main = Smoke? Discuss.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Having unnecessary bans in our tournament rulings is what makes the game look bad if anything. But I agree with everything else you said.
You can deal with Kabal as a character, there's tools to deal with him. Jax's damage is situational and can be broken. Kabal vs Kabal is actually extremely fun to watch and is far from embarrassing. A CHARACTER IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FROZEN FOR 14 SECONDS IN ANY GAME, how do you make sense of that?!

There's ways around everything, doesn't make it right for it be in that game.
The SPG is more situational than Jax's corner damage resets. Kabal vs Kabal being extremely fun to watch is subjective, what you find fun to watch another person may not. This is why when certain things that are brought up that make "community look bad" and are subjective, really should not be taken seriously. And a character is not supposed to be locked in a bunch of block stun from Kabal's 2~ndc. So what is your point exactly?

And if you want to blow all 3 of your meters to prevent me from breaking, be my guest.
And if you want to mash out 60 frame normals when the opponent is trying to do the glitch, then be my guest.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Just an fyi, this forum "Outworld Demonstrate" was created specifically for these types of threads/discussions. REO isn't bringing up a "dead thing" just to start an issue. This is exactly what this forum was created for, to discuss the prohibition of things within the game.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Just an fyi, this forum "Outworld Demonstrate" was created specifically for these types of threads/discussions. REO isn't bringing up a "dead thing" just to start an issue. This is exactly what this forum was created for, to discuss the prohibition of things within the game.
And if someone wishes to contribute something that is off topic and/or trolling, consider it deleted.
 
Reo makes a good point, Cyrax users use everything available to them, why can't you use everything available to Smoke? What is the difference? Why is a damage reset allowed, but a glitch that is very situational and harder to pull off, not allowed? What is a glitch? Isn't it an unintended action within a game? I'm sure the Cyrax resets were unintended.

Edit: My feeling is you ban everything or you ban nothing....no cherry picking.
 

G4S MinotaurLord

Wielder of Toxins
Having unnecessary bans in our tournament rulings is what makes the game look bad if anything.
Can you explain this further? I'm not sure why bannings would make a game look bad. Soul Calibur has banned characters in almost every iteration yet it remains a popular competitive game that sees play in major tournaments. I'm not trying to compare MK to SC, but I was curious why you have mentioned on multiple threads that bannings = a thing to be avoided at all costs. This is a separate issue from MK's history of allowing all gameplay mechanics; it steps into the realm of banning = bad (as opposed to banning = not what we've done in the past).
 

REO

Undead
Can you explain this further? I'm not sure why bannings would make a game look bad. Soul Calibur has banned characters in almost every iteration yet it remains a popular competitive game that sees play in major tournaments. I'm not trying to compare MK to SC, but I was curious why you have mentioned on multiple threads that bannings = a thing to be avoided at all costs. This is a separate issue from MK's history of allowing all gameplay mechanics; it steps into the realm of banning = bad (as opposed to banning = not what we've done in the past).
Why should we constantly have to state to players who enter tournaments that the SPG is prohibited and not allowed under any circumstances? What is the point of banning this glitch and constantly addressing it via rule sets each tournament? What if players ask what is the reason for it being banned, what do we do then? There is absolutely no reason why this glitch should be banned and lumped alongside other ones. It's not over the top dominating in top level play and does not fit the criteria for what generally warrants a ban.
 

G4S MinotaurLord

Wielder of Toxins
Why should we constantly have to state to players who enter tournaments that the SPG is prohibited and not allowed under any circumstances? What is the point of banning this glitch and constantly addressing it via rule sets each tournament? What if players ask what is the reason for it being banned, what do we do then? There is absolutely no reason why this glitch should be banned and lumped alongside other ones. It's not over the top dominating in top level play and does not fit the criteria for what warrants a ban.
Fair argument for this case. I should specify: I am in favor of unbanning this glitch because it is something that is activated mid-round, in large part the opponent's fault for being bated into a tactic, and does not guarantee an untechable win. That being said, we should have discussions both within the community and with tournament organizers not only about what should/should not be banned, but the justification for doing so (so we CAN tell players why they're being banned). I wish more people participated in a serious manner on the discussions you've been creating because it's only when we can have a detailed discussion about why/why not the glitches should be banned can we even come close to making an informed decision (and avoid a knee-jerk fix reaction ala Netherrealm Studios).
 

KH_Seraph

ҜømbÄŦ Ħøu&Ŧøπ
The glitch leaves the player frozen for 14 seconds?! Wow. Permanent invisibility? No way jose. I didn't even know about a ban on this glitch before this thread was created though. Sounds like a nightmare. I vote to just go ahead and keep it brushed under the rug and not allowed in tournaments.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
smoke has 100% reset combos. That is broken. So is cyrax bomb resets. So is Jax corner infinits. They were not intended to be in the game. They were attempted to be patched out.

I know that everything can be avoided with caution...but those errors in programing have changed the way the game is played. Anything that is that broken (in my opinion) that changes the way the game is played should not be allowed in tournaments. Those glitches I consider broken (although maybe not as broken as kabal)
Low hitboxes were unintended (I assume) and therefore broken. Should low hitbox characters be banned?
Sub Zero ex slide into a corner ice clone was unintended and could be labeled "broken"

Just because something wasn't intended doesn't make it bad. We're here to exploit the game as much as possible :)

The only bad thing it does is show "outsiders" the broken-ness of our game lol.
I totally agree with this.
Personally I think it would be awesome to see the glitch happen in a tournament because it's so difficult. (Remember how hype it was when xSmokex landed the glitch on REO at toryuken?)

We shouldn't be banning anything just to make the game look less broken to outsiders. So I support unbanning it.
 

Spletty

Grandmaster
I don't think it should be banned. Reminds me of some old hidden umk3 shit. I think it's legit tech that should be allowed. If they wanna burn a bar for a slim chance at invisibility and a free combo, be my guest.
 
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REO

Undead
The glitch leaves the player frozen for 14 seconds?! Wow. Permanent invisibility? No way jose. I didn't even know about a ban on this glitch before this thread was created though. Sounds like a nightmare. I vote to just go ahead and keep it brushed under the rug and not allowed in tournaments.
You're just looking at the benefits the glitch gives and completely ignoring all other aspects. Did you even read on how the glitch is activated and performed?
 
Smoke is currently not tournament viable.

Let's take a look at his matchup chart vs. other top tier characters, shall we?

Cage: 4-6
Jax: 4-6
Kabal: 3-7
Kung Lao: 3-7
Sonya: 4-6

That is absolutely grim. I am stepping back from my role as a Smoke player in order to offer my take on this alleged "glitch".

I'm going to make a comparison here to Carrier Micro in Starcraft 1 vs. Starcraft 2. In Starcraft 1, there is a unit called the Carrier; it is a flagship that holds 8 small interceptors. the Carrier itself cannot attack, but the interceptors can. The Carrier shoots each interceptor out one at a time until they are all out, and stay out indefinitely as long as they are not destroyed. When the target is destroyed, they return to the carrier. With proper micromanagement, one can keep all of the carrier's interceptors outside of the carrier between battles and prevent them from re-entering the carrier. Some may call this a glitch, because it allows the carrier to send out all 8 interceptors to attack all at once, greatly increasing the damage they were capable of. I call it a feature. It forces the player to perform a large series of actions in a short number of time in order to make it work. Requires high "Actions per Minute", referred to as APM from now on. By committing to an action requiring such high APM, the player is sacrificing other aspects of their play in order to focus on doing this one key action.

The same is true for smoke's parry "glitch." I do not see it as a glitch; I see it as a feature. It gives smoke the armor he desperately needs, without making it stupid easy to use, such as other armors like bf2+blk. It is an armor that requires high APM to accomplish, but if accomplished it gives the opportunity for the player to inflict a large amount of spike damage on his opponent. Just like a Starcraft 1 carrier. And it still isn't even a good armor.

Where does Starcraft 2 come into play, you may ask? Well, let me tell you. In Starcraft 2, this famous "carrier micro" was stripped from the game. Carriers dropped to shit tier units because of it, they were (and still are) complete garbage that should essentially never be made in any situation. This is synonymous to Smoke's parry feature being banned. You are unjustly limiting actions that are otherwise extremely difficult to perform, and it is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction that has not been properly discussed prior to its banning.

By allowing smoke to use this feature, his bad matchups wouldn't even become better. He still has to hold the shake for 28 frames before he can cancel it, so it's not like he can use it to full combo parry Cage or some such nonsense. It's only use is on a whiffed dial string that hits high-high or high-mid that smoke ducks the first hit of, crouches, ex shakes at the first possible frame, and then just frame dashes out of, assuming that the gap between those two hits is 30 frames (lawl). But, oh wait! Smoke has a 9 frame 2 that he can use and combo off of anyways! So that blows the shit out of that idea.

This glitch is absolutely useless. It's only good on opponents with slow reflexes that cannot react to a shake on their jump in. Besides, it's abusable by anyone who know it exists. How deep is that jump in punch/kick gonna be? You've got no way of knowing. It's a complete guessing game that you have (let's say) only about a 1-in-15 chance of winning (counting frames there).

The glitch is too hard to perform to even make it useful. But, if somebody is ballsy enough to try it AND to hit something so ludicrous, why should they be punished with forfeiting their match? If it happened to me, this is exactly how I'd react:


Then I'd play out my matches and shake the guy (or girl)'s hand no matter what happened. Props to anyone that pulls this off AND can get a full combo into reset off of it OR time somebody out with it. You are truly a god of Smoke if that's even viable for you.

By banning this glitch all you are doing is nerfing the absoute highest spectrum of players, while keeping the scrubs where they stand.
 

LolingOctopus

Modest and humble genitalia destroyer
I'm willing to bet that if there was ONE tournament with no rule applied that most players would agree that it isn't that insane after we saw results. I'd be honestly curious to see who could break the game the furthest during tournament play.
Hell, after MLG why don't we make one?
I'm inviting any players that would be interested to speak up. Instead of theory fighting let's make a 'REAL' lawless MK and see what happens!
 

REO

Undead
Yep. Opinion still stands.
Thanks for discussing your opinion in a very depth manner and showing others why it needs to be banned and is too powerful in competitive play.
I'm willing to bet that if there was ONE tournament with no rule applied that most players would agree that it isn't that insane after we saw results. I'd be honestly curious to see who could break the game the furthest during tournament play.
Hell, after MLG why don't we make one?
I'm inviting any players that would be interested to speak up. Instead of theory fighting let's make a 'REAL' lawless MK and see what happens!
I would be down for this. I think it would be a blast to participate in a tournament like this just to see what happens.
 

THTB

RIP Arez & Booya
Tbh, a ban can't entirely be enforced. It's not a glitch that is 100% controllable. Like, you can control stuff like the invincibility glitch. This can happen at any time, like with xSmokex.

The best you can do is ban intentional use, but there's still a grey area, because some people may like to dash cancel shake to avoid getting punished.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
FrothyOmen apart from the talk on the glitch, just on your MU numbers, i wouldnt call a 4-6 "grim" or make a char "un-viable". its only disadv, now if all the numbers were 3-7 id see your point

my 2 cents on the glitch are if the kommunity is ok with jax, cyrax and smoke having 100% combos that we have breakers, we really shouldnt be banning anything as theres always a way around everything if you explore the options in depth instead of saying its the end of the world
 

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
If someone could actually land the glitch consistently, then they deserve to win. I'm for it being unbanned.
 
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AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
This thread is not about if damage resets are fair or not. This thread is about if Smoke's Shake Glitch should be unbanned. If you want to make a thread concerning damage resets, then be my guest. But take this discussion else where.
Listen guy...your not as bright as I thought. that was the comparison. You asked me why he was broken. That is why. The shake glitch must makes it worse. Goddamn it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation these days.
 

DeathTouch

Iceman
This "Glitch" is the least of my worry. What if the smoke player does ex Shake and cancels it on the frame where the opponent is trying to punish the shake with a poke ? Smoke player likes to make the opponent whiff his poke and it is Tournament and ooooppppps, smoke player is DQ'ed ?

UNBAN THIS TACTIC. ITS NOT a GLITCH IMO
 
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aj1701

Noob
Shang Tsung's EX Soul Steal Glitch is pretty practical, but it's not banned.
Are you talking about the damage boost carrying to the next round? The game devs have told us that is intentional.. You didn't the meter so should not lose the boost bc it ended the round.
 

REO

Undead
Listen guy...your not as bright as I thought. that was the comparison. You asked me why he was broken. That is why. The shake glitch must makes it worse. Goddamn it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation these days.
So your point is it should be banned because it's broken?