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Smoke Shake Glitch - Should it be unbanned?

I think this is much different than the invisible hitbox glitch off of blocking after winning the first round. That's truly game breaking. This? No, not at all. Should just warrant an automatic DQ for anyone who uses it in a competitive setting. Go nuts online though
Explain why
 
Threads like this aren't even funny anymore.
This is not a troll thread. This is not supposed to be funny. This is a serious discussion in the Outworld Remonstrate Subforum whose SOLE PURPOSE is debate and serious discussion. Your post is being removed because it is off topic and spam. You are welcome to try again once you've got something useful to say on either side of the discussion.

EDIT: I have left it visible as an example to others. From this point on, stupid posts or trollposts will be deleted, no questions asked.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
You can fairly consistently anti air with this glitch, but you can 100% consistantly anti air with standing 2 into atleast 40% damage using that same meter. Seems silly , REO pls.
 
You can fairly consistently anti air with this glitch, but you can 100% consistantly anti air with standing 2 into atleast 40% damage using that same meter. Seems silly , REO pls.
That essentially the crux of this whole debate. Why make such a silly option illegal in the first place? nah mean?
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
That essentially the crux of this whole debate. Why make such a silly option illegal in the first place? nah mean?
Because its a glitch, people arguing for it to be unbanned can go and sit in training all they like and come up with a setup or situation for this to be nearly worth using, but tbh its just another broken tool in a broken game.

Also i think that if we are banning the kabal glitch we should ban this shake glitch and all the resets/damage exploits, glitches be glitches.
 

LolingOctopus

Modest and humble genitalia destroyer
Here's what I propose, I'm not exactly sure about the majors for 2013. However, I'd be damn interesting to make an event for early 2013 that is a tournament without 'in game rules'. No character banned, everything goes.

Considering the east coast scene I'd propose doing it in the NY region (this is not my call, if you guys want it else where suggest something). I'd be willing to travel to get this experience. (No my plan is not to exclude west coast :X you guys are free to organize something similar I encourage it!)

Players who don't want to participate won't be pariahs or anything. Hell we could even call it 'Reo's Mad World' so we know beforehand how insane it could be.

Let's try it. For months we've argued back and forth on piece of theory crafting. Let's see this 'brokenness' and let's stream it. I guarantee this tournament would be unique and a fresh turn for MK. You want it even crazier? No rules tag tournament. Never been done we could also explore that to give MK an even longer life-time.

But hell, I'm just a player giving ideas, if what I'm saying is shit say your piece. For people who think what I'm saying makes sense. Let's get our shit organized
 

Justice

Noob
Okay. Time for some real talk here. Let's start with the definition of "Glitch":


glitch (gl
ch)
n.
1. A minor malfunction, mishap, or technical problem; a snag: a computer glitch; a navigational glitch; a glitch in the negotiations.
2. A false or spurious electronic signal caused by a brief, unwanted surge of electric power.
3. Astronomy A sudden change in the period of rotation of a neutron star.
[Probably from Yiddish glitsh, a slip, lapse, from glitshn, to slip, from Middle High German glitschen, alteration of gl
ten, to glide, from Old High German gl
tan; see ghel-2 in Indo-European roots.]
glitch
y
adj.
Word History: Although glitch seems a word that people would always have found useful, it is first recorded in English in 1962 in the writing of John Glenn: "Another term we adopted to describe some of our problems was 'glitch.' " Glenn then gives the technical sense of the word the astronauts had adopted: "Literally, a glitch is a spike or change in voltage in an electrical current." It is easy to see why the astronauts, who were engaged in a highly technical endeavor, might have generalized a term from electronics to cover other technical problems. Since then glitch has passed beyond technical use and now covers a wide variety of malfunctions and mishaps.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

glitch [glɪtʃ]
n
1. (Electronics) a sudden instance of malfunctioning or irregularity in an electronic system
2.(Astronomy) a change in the rotation rate of a pulsar
[of unknown origin]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
So by these definitions, Sonya's boobies vibrating when she loses is a glitch. The infinites found in the unpatched version of MK are NOT glitches. Cyrax's resets ARE NOT glitches. Is the Smoke glitch, by definition, a glitch? Yes. Yes it is and therefore should be banned on this basis alone. But that isn't what we are really discussing here.

The true point of this discussion is whether or not it is worth our time to enforce the ban.

I've seen many opinions supporting both sides in this thread. What I have also seen happening are a couple of minor points being overlooked. One of these is the fact that since it is banned, noone is practicing it and working it into their game. The other, is xSMoKEx claim that it can happen "on accident". Let's take these points one at a time in order of appearance.

If the glitch was never banned, there would be more Smoke players spending more time with their character, learning their gameplans and developing their strategies. Set ups could be discovered. Like was mentioned earlier, a large part of competative play is out-thinking your opponent and making him/her do exactly what you want them to do. Baiting an assault that leads into this glitch could possibly be made into a viable strategy, givn enough time and research. REO himself fell for this twice @Toryuken (the glitch only activated once but I digress). Especially in the hands of someone with Smoke's level of Execution, ths glitch can be extremely deadly.

As for the claim that this can happen "on accident", I'm sorry dood. I gotta call BS on that. As both Smoke and REO have pointed out, it takes just frame inputs to get this glitch to activate. Doing this on accident is just not possible. Banning the glitch will not hurt a Smoke player at all and the Smoke player will not have to adjust his/her gameplay at all to accomodate the glitch. It does not matter if it only happens 1 in 10 attempts or 1 in 1000 attempts. Fact is, it COULD activate at a very horrible time (or even at a very opportune time) and immediately change the balance of the match.

At this point, the glitch has been talked about enough on the forums that noone can plead ignrance of the fact that it is banned. I would think that this would be self-policing in that if anyone sees it happen, they will rat out the offender, if for no other reason than it will help themselves to get another player DQ'd.

To sum up, should the glitch be banned? Yes. Should it stay banned? Yes. Is it worth our while to keep it banned. Yes again.
 

REO

Undead
You're welcome.

Actually, I was at work and didn't have time to specify specifics on why I don't like the idea of allowing a character to have such a glitch, but my answer should have sufficed enough. I'm simply in disagreement with you despite your key points, which you obviously took time to develop (and that's fine), but I'm someone who doesn't care for exploiting tactics that are not defined by the game's rules (No where is it stated that Smoke should be allowed permanent invisibility and the player be paralyzed if X=X, anywhere, period), especially if it's in the MLG Circuit.
And where does the game state an opponent should be locked in constant jail stun from Kabal's 2~ndc infinite? Where does the game state KL can delay his enhanced teleport 1 to gain ridiculous super armor frames afterwards? All of these examples fit the criteria of "tactics that are not defined by the game's rules". It's fine if you don't want to use broken tactics because you think you're too good for them, for honor purposes, or whatever else the reasoning may be. But please refrain from implying we should craft the rules in this game for what MLG thinks would be good. MLG is not what makes competitive MK.


Now, I would say that this glitch should have more of a SOFT ban type deal. It really doesn't add to Smoke's gameplay because the odds of pulling it off are so slim anyways. You want to try this glitch? Go for it. In a tournament though, I'd prefer that the match gets reset if the glitch does occur and causes compromisable damage to the other player's chances of winning. It's just broken. You literally force the player to stand their with their thumbs up their ass, which is not what the developers intended when they gave ENH-Shake the properties it has.

There's my piece on it. It caused a lot of controversy then, for some apparent reason. It'd be all the better to just keep this glitch as off the books and unallowed while MK is in the MLG Circuit.

Afterwards? Use it all you want. I could care less at that point. I'm not going to argue though. Ban or no ban, my opinion on any glitch like that is not going to move.
And you think characters like Kabal don't force the player to stand there with their thumbs up their ass? You're basically saying we should ban something that has such a slim chance of happening because it's not fair when it's done? Really?Incase you didn't realize, we're playing MK - where a ton of shit ISN'T FAIR. So you want us to go ahead and constantly state and mention to players who go to tournaments that this glitch is banned? We're going to write this glitch in every banned rule set before a tournament because it must be such a problem. And then once players start asking what's the big fuss in having to constantly state this glitch is banned every tournament, what do we say then?

Once the glitch is pulled off, it gives you a free combo and 1/3th chance at permanent invisibility for one bar. The opponent can still fight back and win the match even after the glitch is used. So what if you can't play footsies against Smoke when he's permanently invisible? There are other characters in this game you can't play footsies with. Kabal anyone?
 

KH_Seraph

ҜømbÄŦ Ħøu&Ŧøπ
Haha, your reasoning is HIGHLY subjective. I disagree with your opinions on MLG not making MK competitive. I'm not going to spend time drawing out the history of MLG, and its relevance to rule sets for tournament play in gaming for you on a chalk board. Honestly though, you're talking to someone who didn't realize this thread was in the "Debate" forums. Let's just make it better and pretend my posts here didn't exist. Again, I didn't come here to argue. I just came in, said my two cents, and left. :)

Shoot, a moderator can delete my posts if they'd like. I was being serious when I said I wasn't going to argue. That's what I get though for just simply clicking on most recently posted topics. =P
 

REO

Undead
Haha, your reasoning is HIGHLY subjective. I disagree with your opinions on MLG not making MK competitive. I'm not going to spend time drawing out the history of MLG, and its relevance to rule sets for tournament play in gaming for you on a chalk board. Honestly though, you're talking to someone who didn't realize this thread was in the "Debate" forums. Let's just make it better and pretend my posts here didn't exist. Again, I didn't come here to argue. I just came in, said my two cents, and left. :)

Shoot, a moderator can delete my posts if they'd like. I was being serious when I said I wasn't going to argue. That's what I get though for just simply clicking on most recently posted topics. =P
MK in MLG is competitive, sure. But please step off your MLG high horse if you think MK needs MLG to be competitive. That's all I'm trying to say. Telling us we need to make specials rules because MK is in MLG is a joke and an insult to everything else involving competitive MK.
 

LolingOctopus

Modest and humble genitalia destroyer
Back in the day you had to prove something was broken in tournament play:
Akuma from SF2 -- don't know when or how he was banned, too long ago for me
Kara Jab UMK3 -- Reo made claims that this was broken and the best way to win games. Proved it at a major while using noob saibot a character who had no special moves. Was it banned afterwards though? I can't seem to recall this detail.

So you see, his point is: If it's that broken, let someone abuse it and prove that you only need this to win. And then we'll see what we'll do about it.

The reason it's so controversial nowadays is because of all the new blood. I'm not saying new blood is bad, but new blood isn't used to deal with/tolerate broken shit. We just have two ideology fighting each others, and each ideology comes from a different "Gaming Era".
 

Tolkeen

/wrists
And where does the game state an opponent should be locked in constant jail stun from Kabal's 2~ndc infinite? Where does the game state KL can delay his enhanced teleport 1 to gain ridiculous super armor frames afterwards? All of these examples fit the criteria of "tactics that are not defined by the game's rules". It's fine if you don't want to use broken tactics because you think you're too good for them, for honor purposes, or whatever else the reasoning may be. But please refrain from implying we should craft the rules in this game for what MLG thinks would be good. MLG is not what makes competitive MK.




And you think characters like Kabal don't force the player to stand there with their thumbs up their ass? You're basically saying we should ban something that has such a slim chance of happening because it's not fair when it's done? Really?Incase you didn't realize, we're playing MK - where a ton of shit ISN'T FAIR. So you want us to go ahead and constantly state and mention to players who go to tournaments that this glitch is banned? We're going to write this glitch in every banned rule set before a tournament because it must be such a problem. And then once players start asking what's the big fuss in having to constantly state this glitch is banned every tournament, what do we say then?

Once the glitch is pulled off, it gives you a free combo and 1/3th chance at permanent invisibility for one bar. The opponent can still fight back and win the match even after the glitch is used. So what if you can't play footsies against Smoke when he's permanently invisible? There are other characters in this game you can't play footsies with. Kabal anyone?
The general game mechanics are what deems this to not be a glitch. kabals 2 does not vary frames, it's the same, it's the cancellability that causes the infinite. Which is total bullshit, but not a break of any game mechanic directly. Cyrax resets (and even smoke resets) are a creative use of CONSISTENT game mechanics. Kabal being able to be invincible and smoke being invisible after being hit are NOT consistent game mechanics. No one should be invincible for a long period of time, and smoke should not retain invisibility after being hit. That is what separates a glitch from a game (albeit stupid) mechanic. I'm sorry that the glitch requires so much to activate, but the fact that it is such a break from the consistent mechanics of the moves makes it a potential problem.

We all know MK is glitchy, but it's usually glitchy in consistent ways (corner bullshit effects everyone), this however makes it so that smoke has a potential advantage, no matter how small, or how badly it may backfire. Long term invisbility has the potential to make his mix-ups, completely unavoidable. That is why it should stay banned, and that is why it should be listed on the tourney websites rules and enforced.
 

REO

Undead
The general game mechanics are what deems this to not be a glitch. kabals 2 does not vary frames, it's the same, it's the cancellability that causes the infinite. Which is total bullshit, but not a break of any game mechanic directly. Cyrax resets (and even smoke resets) are a creative use of CONSISTENT game mechanics. Kabal being able to be invincible and smoke being invisible after being hit are NOT consistent game mechanics. No one should be invincible for a long period of time, and smoke should not retain invisibility after being hit. That is what separates a glitch from a game (albeit stupid) mechanic. I'm sorry that the glitch requires so much to activate, but the fact that it is such a break from the consistent mechanics of the moves makes it a potential problem.

We all know MK is glitchy, but it's usually glitchy in consistent ways (corner bullshit effects everyone), this however makes it so that smoke has a potential advantage, no matter how small, or how badly it may backfire. Long term invincibility has the potential to make his mix-ups, completely unavoidable. That is why it should stay banned, and that is why it should be listed on the tourney websites rules and enforced.
Smoke can still be beaten if he's permanently invisible. Kabal is more of a threat than Smoke is, even with permanent invisibility. All I got from your post is "i can't see smoke it's not fair all his mix-ups are hard to block now".

Also consitency doesn't determine what a glitch is. It doesn't matter if you're able to do Kabal's invincibility once during a blue moon or every time you touch your opponent. It was not intended to function that way to begin with, same with Kung Lao's enhanced teleport armor glitch.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Im so sick of hearing Cyrax resets called "glitches"....he had them in UMK3 and he took MORE DAMAGE back then. They WERE intended and you can clearly see that they were intended BY the creators to transfer to his new incarnation. If it was in UMK3 how is it NOT intentional?

If there was a reset that could be considered a glitch it would be Quan's Rune Trap. Getting punished for BLOCKING CORRECTLY? Seriously? GTFO here
 

Tolkeen

/wrists
Smoke can still be beaten if he's permanently invisible. Kabal is more of a threat than Smoke is, even with permanent invisibility. All I got from your post is "i can't see smoke it's not fair all his mix-ups are hard to block now".

Also consitency doesn't determine what a glitch is. It doesn't matter if you're able to do Kabal's invincibility once during a blue moon or every time you touch your opponent. It was not intended to function that way to begin with, same with Kung Lao's enhanced teleport armor glitch.
I apologize if my last post was a little unorganized, I had a thought that I need to share and I failed at that. I'm gonna try again, and if this doesn't make sense, then I quit.

In regards to the other character glitches, I would love to go through the list and figure out which ones are actual glitches and proceed to ban them, I am not against banning the things that legitimately break the intended coding in such a way that the move presents uncontrollable, and unexpected results. We have not done this because there is no true governing body in the MK community. The closest we have is Storms accepted tournament list. But much like me, you are getting off topic. The question that you stated was about Smoke's glitch, and that should be the important thing for this thread.

Shake is supposed to parry projectiles and ex-shake is supposed to parry all mid's and highs. That is the function of the move. That is what it does 99.9% of the time. The fact that if you cancel it at the instant that your opponent hits you is a glitch in coding. Shake was never supposed to make you invisible. Shake was never supposed to lock your opponent in the air. That is what I was trying to say. No matter how hard you try you can not debate that those two statements are facts, and that it is an error that those consequences sometimes occur, and as such we should not change our stance on the legality of these programming errors.

All of your points from the original post fall under the same category in terms of why it should be un-banned. And that title is "it's hard to do in tournament". Now while I agree that it is a hard to do glitch, I will refer you to the history of mk9.
- The cyrax players once said that the resets were hard to do, and yet they are the bnb of cyrax today.
- The kabal players said he required a huge learning curve, and yet multiple top and middle players now have a pocket kabal that is dangerous.
- You yourself stated that 2-ndc was a just frame link and thus borderline impossible to execute in tournament play, and yet your midscreen bnb has 2-ndc in it and you have published videos of you 2-ndc'ing characters to death.
- xSmokex has claimed that this could happen accidentally, I however must disagree. I believe that the time he did it, it was an accident, but only for his mind. After finding, and abusing the glitch online, the motion for it was ingrained into his head. And whether he legitimately wanted it to come out or not, his hands took over and delivered the glitch in tournament play. That is proof that the glitch can be done in a high stakes tournament setting. Whether or not it's easy, it would if unbanned, become a very commonly reproduced event in smoke's game.

We need to remain consistent with our handling of the actual game glitches, because it really is a "slippery slope" in regards to which ones slide and which ones don't. As soon as we unban this glitch, there will be many more players requesting that their character's glitches be unbanned, which is what I feel has been your intent the entire time. You don't care about the smoke glitch, you care about the kabal glitch, which is why it sometimes feels that you aren't being open minded in this discussion, because you have already made up your mind that you will use all your influence to unban these glitches. I implore you, as someone who once (I have no clue if you still do) loved this game, do not continue to attempt to unban these glitches. I don't really think you understand all the potential ramifications.

As an aside:
I understand that this forum is for intelligent discussion, but that means you have to listen to reason. If you aren't going to be open minded, then just close this sub-forum down, because it'll become just another place where people can rile up those that actually care about the mechanics, and the future of this game.
 

REO

Undead
I apologize if my last post was a little unorganized, I had a thought that I need to share and I failed at that. I'm gonna try again, and if this doesn't make sense, then I quit.

In regards to the other character glitches, I would love to go through the list and figure out which ones are actual glitches and proceed to ban them, I am not against banning the things that legitimately break the intended coding in such a way that the move presents uncontrollable, and unexpected results. We have not done this because there is no true governing body in the MK community. The closest we have is Storms accepted tournament list. But much like me, you are getting off topic. The question that you stated was about Smoke's glitch, and that should be the important thing for this thread.
Here, let me help you with current glitches that were not intended for the move to originally function:

- CSZ enhanced dive kick (where first hit clips on block, and the follow up whiffs causing +20)
- Kenshi reflect (where after you walk he will auto reflect for extra 60 frames)
- Kung Lao enhanced teleport delayed armor (where when you delay 1 he has armor for extra 60 frames)
- Noob Saibot green explosion
- Kabal ndc~2 block infinite
- Rain enhanced roundhouse kick cancel (armor doesn't disappear when kick is cancelled)
- Jade flash glow combined with disjointed staff normals that create different properties


Shake is supposed to parry projectiles and ex-shake is supposed to parry all mid's and highs. That is the function of the move. That is what it does 99.9% of the time. The fact that if you cancel it at the instant that your opponent hits you is a glitch in coding. Shake was never supposed to make you invisible. Shake was never supposed to lock your opponent in the air. That is what I was trying to say. No matter how hard you try you can not debate that those two statements are facts, and that it is an error that those consequences sometimes occur, and as such we should not change our stance on the legality of these programming errors.
And all the moves I listed above do things that they are not supposed to.

All of your points from the original post fall under the same category in terms of why it should be un-banned. And that title is "it's hard to do in tournament". Now while I agree that it is a hard to do glitch, I will refer you to the history of mk9.
- The cyrax players once said that the resets were hard to do, and yet they are the bnb of cyrax today.
- The kabal players said he required a huge learning curve, and yet multiple top and middle players now have a pocket kabal that is dangerous.
- You yourself stated that 2-ndc was a just frame link and thus borderline impossible to execute in tournament play, and yet your midscreen bnb has 2-ndc in it and you have published videos of you 2-ndc'ing characters to death.
- xSmokex has claimed that this could happen accidentally, I however must disagree. I believe that the time he did it, it was an accident, but only for his mind. After finding, and abusing the glitch online, the motion for it was ingrained into his head. And whether he legitimately wanted it to come out or not, his hands took over and delivered the glitch in tournament play. That is proof that the glitch can be done in a high stakes tournament setting. Whether or not it's easy, it would if unbanned, become a very commonly reproduced event in smoke's game.
1.) Cyrax resets are not hard to do. It's the Cyrax players who don't practice enough or are new to the game that say that. You shouldn't listen to them.

2.) "Huge" learning curve may be exaggerated, but he is one of the very few characters in this game that actually requires a some-what serious approach. No other character in the game compares to the amount practice needed. Skarlet and Sindel are close, but not on Kabal's level of execution.

3.) Never compare combo usage of 2~ndc to block infinite usage of 2~ndc again. That literally made no sense. The combos with 2~ndc are no where near one frame links. Every video I published performing "2~ndc" infinite is false advertisement to get people riled up. There is a reason why no one out there can win a match with the actual 2~ndc block infinite. It's no where near practical.

4.) You don't seem to be very knowledgeable on the SPG. The Smoke is player is not who dictates if the glitch will activate or not, it's the other player who does. With basic understanding and knowledge on the glitch, a player can completely negate the use of a Smoke player activating the glitch.

We need to remain consistent with our handling of the actual game glitches, because it really is a "slippery slope" in regards to which ones slide and which ones don't. As soon as we unban this glitch, there will be many more players requesting that their character's glitches be unbanned, which is what I feel has been your intent the entire time. You don't care about the smoke glitch, you care about the kabal glitch, which is why it sometimes feels that you aren't being open minded in this discussion, because you have already made up your mind that you will use all your influence to unban these glitches. I implore you, as someone who once (I have no clue if you still do) loved this game, do not continue to attempt to unban these glitches. I don't really think you understand all the potential ramifications.
And what are these said glitches that people will be requesting for an unban? With further information, the invincibility glitch is a guaranteed win no matter what and there is nothing your opponent can do. That is why it is banned, and will remain banned. No other glitched mention even compares in the slightest. Your reasons for me making this thread as a gateway to have Kabal's invincibility allowed is absolutely foolish. The Smoke glitch should have never been banned, I've been saying this before the invincibility glitch was discovered.

As an aside:
I understand that this forum is for intelligent discussion, but that means you have to listen to reason. If you aren't going to be open minded, then just close this sub-forum down, because it'll become just another place where people can rile up those that actually care about the mechanics, and the future of this game.
If anything, you're the one who isn't being open-minded here. Your posts wreak with lack of knowledge on many subjects.