Match-up Discussion Skarlet Vs. Kung Lao

[Ninj]

If I may, to help push this topic back on track: imo the only way to constructively explore a matchup 'on paper' as it were is to discuss tool versus tool. This means knowing the frame data for both characters.

It's impossible to win a debate based on arguing over player skill variables - no matter what's said, it always has a counter argument of "Well, not if I...". Debates like those are like a rocking chair - something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

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[Johnny2d]

Eddy Wang I like the video. I'm not sure if neutral Red Dashes are a good idea. Kung Lao's 6 frame spin will punish it with a full combo, so it doesn't seem like it's worth the risk.

I actually like the f4 empty dash as an option. He will get wise if you do it every time though. Its interesting This tactic works if he respects the slide or overhead, it becomes very much like his roll and zero frame block pressure, that stuff only works if we respect the spin.

So I'll go back to what I said earlier, the person who can convince the other person to respect the others player's options, wins this matchup.

 

[Johnny2d]

If I may, to help push this topic back on track: imo the only way to constructively explore a matchup 'on paper' as it were is to discuss tool versus tool. This means knowing the frame data for both characters.

It's impossible to win a debate based on arguing over player skill variables - no matter what's said, it always has a counter argument of "Well, not if I...". Debates like those are like a rocking chair - something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

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I agree Ninj, that the arguing about which is better is useless. However, this discussion on paper is leading to exploring options in practice. The knowledge is preparation for the moment, so its not a guess in the battle, its an informed decision. The attractive part of fighting games, and what this game is great at is that there aren't 'A to B' guarantees. If we had concrete answers on how to 'flow chart' this matchup it would be broken in Skarlet's favor. The goal here is to fill holes if we find them and attempt to tilt the scales in Skarlet's favor.

With that said, thanks for getting us back on track, when I list the information from this thread in bullet points, I'll make sure to list options and opinions, as tools you can choose to use or not use.

 

[Johnny2d]

hey yall i was doing offline casuals yesterday in houston with showtime, cat, scar, pro spic and i was able to get the skarlet v. kung lao match up in. we did a first to 5...i lost 5-3 but a few negative edge mistakes and dropped combos lost me the set. Just look at this and see what i could have done better and see were yall think lao has holes at. Emp_scar is in here too so yall can watch him work too.

Here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/kombathouston/b/319077079

I would like to point out that at 3:18:20 Khaotic throws a blood ball... and wins that match People forget about that shit man! X-FACTOR!

 

[ryublaze]

I actually like the f4 empty dash as an option. He will get wise if you do it every time though. Its interesting This tactic works if he respects the slide or overhead, it becomes very much like his roll and zero frame block pressure, that stuff only works if we respect the spin.

So I'll go back to what I said earlier, the person who can convince the other person to respect the others player's options, wins this matchup.

I like empty Red Dashes to bait spins too, but I'm not too sure about F4 since you'll be at -10 after doing an empty Red Dash. D4, Red Dash seems a bit more safer.

 

[Johnny2d]

I like empty Red Dashes to bait spins too, but I'm not too sure about F4 since you'll be at -10 after doing an empty Red Dash. D4, Red Dash seems a bit more safer.

I'd have to agree with d4 being better. I just use d4 dash so much, I like the idea of having something that looks so different to throw at them.

The thing that is essential to making these empty dashes work, comes from how you dash outside of these setups. I think it is crucial to push the contrast of short dash then slide, and long dash then slide. This creates the guessing game and doubt that you need in order to make them hesitate. If you wait until the very last moment in her dash to slide, it looks like the slide is over, once they get hit by 1 or 2 slides that have been delayed to the last possible frame, they won't be able to guess when the slide is over. If you always short dash and slide, then you leave one dash open by not sliding, your trick is obvious.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I'd have to agree with d4 being better. I just use d4 dash so much, I like the idea of having something that looks so different to throw at them.

The thing that is essential to making these empty dashes work, comes from how you dash outside of these setups. I think it is crucial to push the contrast of short dash then slide, and long dash then slide. This creates the guessing game and doubt that you need in order to make them hesitate. If you wait until the very last moment in her dash to slide, it looks like the slide is over, once they get hit by 1 or 2 slides that have been delayed to the last possible frame, they won't be able to guess when the slide is over. If you always short dash and slide, then you leave one dash open by not sliding, your trick is obvious.

Careful, if you delay a slide with a blocked string the opponent will be able to poke out or spin before you do a slide.

There is a huge gap on Skarlet's block strings to delayed slide, so i wouldn't advice to put a 40% usage in this strategy if they blocked your strings or checks, do a very late slide might hurt Skarlet out there, its like the Ermac's unblockable B2. You can't do it all the time ^^

That is why i said before, if they're expecting a fast slide out of red Dash everytime, you can Check a F4 Empty dash on block.
When they notice its empty they're late already and if they spin there, you got yourself a bait

Use only late slides if 112 connects, to earn respect for down Slashes and slides, and go for a block string.

 

[Johnny2d]

Careful, if you delay a slide with a blocked string the opponent will be able to poke out or spin before you do a slide.

There is a huge gap on Skarlet's block strings to delayed slide, so i wouldn't advice to put a 40% usage in this strategy if they blocked your strings or checks, do a very late slide might hurt Skarlet out there, its like the Ermac's unblockable B2. You can't do it all the time ^^

That is why i said before, if they're expecting a fast slide out of red Dash everytime, you can Check a F4 Empty dash on block.
When they notice its empty they're late already and if they spin there, you got yourself a bait

Use only late slides if 112 connects, to earn respect for down Slashes and slides, and go for a block string.

Yup I agree. What I had meant is slides NOT WITHIN A BLOCKSTRING. Show them both slides outside of blockstring situations so they know you are capable of both. I look at slide as three possible moves just like a street fighter move would have light, med, strong variations. Her slide can be timed to give the opponent 3 very different looks, immediate, mid, and longer than most would expect.

Taking advantage of this sets them up to have doubt when you leave a slide empty later.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Yup I agree. What I had meant is slides NOT WITHIN A BLOCKSTRING. Show them both slides outside of blockstring situations so they know you are capable of both. I look at slide as three possible moves just like a street fighter move would have light, med, strong variations. Her slide can be timed to give the opponent 3 very different looks, immediate, mid, and longer than most would expect.

Taking advantage of this sets them up to have doubt when you leave a slide empty later.

Much clear now hehe thanks. And i agree because this is how i mindfuck my opponents sometimes

 

[Johnny2d]

Much clear now hehe thanks. And i agree because this is how i mindfuck my opponents sometimes

Yes sir.

 

[ryublaze]

I might be reading the frame data wrong but doesn't a delayed slide only add 3 frames to the execution? That would mean D4, Slide and F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Slide and 1, 1, 4, Slide would still be safe if delayed.

 

[Ninj]

I might be reading the frame data wrong but doesn't a delayed slide only add 3 frames to the execution? That would mean D4, Slide and F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Slide and 1, 1, 4, Slide would still be safe if delayed.

I believe, and Somberness correct me if I'm wrong, that you are at +3 on Slide if the opponent is hit by the final active frames of red slide. if I understand what that means correctly, it doesn't appear to be something that you can necessarily plan for or ensure to happen, as you're typically going to be connecting with red slide as soon as the active frames are available, opposed to tagging them a short distance after activating red slide.

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[Somberness]

I might be reading the frame data wrong but doesn't a delayed slide only add 3 frames to the execution? That would mean D4, Slide and F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Slide and 1, 1, 4, Slide would still be safe if delayed.

It would add as much as 17. That is if you can use slide right up until the end of the dash, haven't tested that yet. 20 to 37 would be the range, if so.

 

[Johnny2d]

I believe, and Somberness correct me if I'm wrong, that you are at +3 on Slide if the opponent is hit by the final active frames of red slide. if I understand what that means correctly, it doesn't appear to be something that you can necessarily plan for or ensure to happen, as you're typically going to be connecting with red slide as soon as the active frames are available, opposed to tagging them a short distance after activating red slide.

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Are you talking about there being more advantage for connecting with the slide towards the end of the slide animation? So, there would have to be some space between Skarlet and the opponent when the slide starts?

 

[Johnny2d]

I might be reading the frame data wrong but doesn't a delayed slide only add 3 frames to the execution? That would mean D4, Slide and F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Slide and 1, 1, 4, Slide would still be safe if delayed.

You are reading this?: Red Slide - 8 (max range is 11)

This deals with the slide itself, and isn't taking into consideration the dash before it right?

 

[Somberness]

Are you talking about there being more advantage for connecting with the slide towards the end of the slide animation? So, there would have to be some space between Skarlet and the opponent when the slide starts?

Yeah, that means it will always be -3 after any blockstring.

 

[Eddy Wang]

You are reading this?: Red Slide - 8 (max range is 11)

This deals with the slide itself, and isn't taking into consideration the dash before it right?

now i'm confused, someone explains me what is going on?

 

[Johnny2d]

There are two discussions going on right now:

If there is space between skarlet and the opponent when she slides, and the slide is blocked in its last active frames due to the distance, it is 0 on block (Impossible during a blockstring because you are next to the opponent). On the other hand when you slide to end a blockstring, you are at -3 because the opponent blocked it early in its active frames. Basically, if you can barely catch their toe, you could have more advantage.

Does that sound right Somberness?

 

[Somberness]

That's right.

 

[Johnny2d]

That's right.

Is there data on the earliest possible slide vs. a delayed slide? As in input dash, then wait until the last possible frame to start the slide? I think that's what RedRaptor10 was talking about. It says 8-11 execution for max range on the slide, but that's not talking about range after the dash starts, its back to describing the distance between Skarlet and the opponent.

Thanks for all the help by the way

 

[Somberness]

Check the last page.

 

[Johnny2d]

Check the last page.

Oh yeah, sorry, brain fart. Its Red Dash - 29, and Krimson Dash - 27. So a short dash then a slide can be just about half a second different than delaying the slide. That's a life time.

 

[ryublaze]

So off of a F2, 1, 2, 1+2 string you can delay the Slide by 10 frames (lands on the 30th frame), but if you delay it any longer Kung Lao will be able to spin because it lands on the 31st frame right?

 

[Eddy Wang]

So off of a F2, 1, 2, 1+2 string you can delay the Slide by 10 frames (lands on the 30th frame), but if you delay it any longer Kung Lao will be able to spin because it lands on the 31st frame right?

Kung Lao has low Hitboxes, this string off a dagger cancel won't work on him he can crouch unpunished no matter how fast you're (i tested)
Backdashing after the dagger is recommended

 

[Johnny2d]

So off of a F2, 1, 2, 1+2 string you can delay the Slide by 10 frames (lands on the 30th frame), but if you delay it any longer Kung Lao will be able to spin because it lands on the 31st frame right?

Uhhmmm. If I'm reading it right, after f212,1+2, the cancel advantage is +25, so if canceled into the dash, and you delay the slide until the 29th frame, 4 frames past the cancel advantage, the slide still has 8 frames of startup. That makes a 12 frame window to punish poke out etc.

If I'm wrong please correct me.