Johnny2d
Xbl: Johnny2Die
~ This will be the first in a series of community discussions on specific matchups for Skarlet. Our goal is to pool our information and opinions together on specific matchups, in an attempt to find any sort of advantage that Skarlet can achieve in these matchups. Hopefully with our knowledge combined, we can take Skarlet to another level of SMART play.
~ The rules are simple, NO FLAMING each other, and NO CRYING FOR BUFFS OR NERFS, for Skarlet or for the opposing character. We are discussing the game at hand, not attempting to change it. All players are welcome and all opinions are valid, as long as they are in service to helping each other get better in the specific matchup that we are discussing. We will discuss one opposing character at a time, and we will give each discussion a week before we move on so we can truly dig deep. If you have a suggestion for the following weeks opposing character, feel free to mention it, then we will vote, and introduce that character the following week.
~ Some of us in the Skarlet community believe this is a tough matchup. Lets discuss why we think this is, and what we can do to circumvent the situations. Lets also attempt to give evidence when possible with frame data or video.
I think the best arguments are informed arguments, so take some time to learn how Kung Lao players are attempting to operate (Link to the UsedForGlue Kung Lao Guide): http://testyourmight.com/threads/kung-lao-2-0-guide.15364/
***The following is a collection of bullet points that happened through a week's worth of conversation (May20th-May27th)***
The Match In Theory
We all know that theory fighting on paper isn’t as good as execution in practice, however these discussions have lead to great advice and points to consider in this matchup. The following is a collection of thoughts and opinions from our community members, take em or leave em. Feel free to read the rest of the thread after this post to see the comments in context.
“This is a very annoying matchup for skarlet depending on how good the Lao user is, i played PL in online matches and he was able to take matches for the sheer fact that lao is faster and more mobile, i hate the facr that its online because i do feel that its a winnable matchup for skarlet u just have to lock lao down when possible, and have a good footsie game and u should come out on top, its a diff ballgame offline, my d1 anti airs and footsie game where not able for the sheer fact of lag, try to be more of the aggressor but a careful agressor, dont wanna eat a wakeup.” FCP/EMP SCAR
“His mobility also seems to be a huge problem and Skarlet can never establish her dagger game because Lao has so many answers to counter them (Teleport, Divkick, etc.) One of the biggest problems though that frustrates me to no end is with his roll. If Lao is zoning with hats from fullscreen it would seem like a good idea to EX Red Dash to stop him BUT he can do is roll and it goes straight through the dash causing you to waste meter for nothing. If a Kung Lao knows about this he can abuse the shit out of it and use roll on Skarlet's wakeup if he reads a dash and he'll be relatively safe while you waste your meter.” Mosp
“Imo, the way KL is being played in general right now, Skarlet needs to be patient and bait KL out. When KL is played at a higher level, I think it will turn into a footsie war which either one could win with the tools they have.” Ninj
“In my opinion Skarlet has her work cut out in this one. There is no way she can throw out overheads Randomly or even in block strings, as Kung Lao can punish heavily in open space. She cannot zone Kung Lao with Daggers, as one, she is not the best Zoner, and even the best zoning characters have serious problems keeping Kung Lao out.
After any Reset or block string ending in a Slide from her Red dash, she has to risk getting spun for even trying a jump, or d3, in fact any buttons, other than a block, or an En red dash, although it is a change to bait spins out of a good Kung Lao player who knows when to spin, and not many of them do, and this scenario will occur even after Kung Lao baits an En Red Dash into Slide.
Kung Lao can d3, uppercut and spin her 112 on crouch block, same as sonya, unless it is from a JIP. Kung Lao can do this from any En Dagger Cancel if he reads it after any reset, and when Kung Lao has XRAY, the game is over for Skarlet. Skarlet's hit box being lowered at D3 is only an inconvenience for Kung Lao at best. So she runs a huge risk in this fight for everything she does.
Its a theoretical 6-4 to Kung Lao, but it can not be even at 5-5, and there are no fundamental flaws in this match to make it 7-3.” UsedForGlue
“I would just have to punish him as hard as possible for everything. Full combo punishes on teleports (If he doesn't try early FK or overheads) Bait spins with Red Dash Slides into D3... Armour every low hat. You just have to out play him and don't try zone him, accept that he will get in.” UsedForGlue
“After PL played emp skar online PL was quoted saying that one of KL only bad MU was skarlet. I tend to agree. I play this MU the way I play it with NW...patient. I dont need daggers at all for this match really. I can punish teleports easily with d1 dagger or even an uppercut. Ex cancels still work. If he tries to spin she can always dash backward and full combo punish after it happens once. Hat is tough but like most 114 is ideal and still leads to good punishes and a guessing game. She can deal with his pressure pretty well, at least the same as most other characters. It's not bad really IMO. I think KL is over rated. Always have and always will.” L0rdoftheFLY
“Kl has a fantastic 6 frame spin, a dive kick at any point in the air with instant recovery, and quick teleport that all can be blown the fuck up if you are patient. she has great options.
Footsies-she has great options here between d4, f4, and slide she has plenty of options here
Low hat from a distance-iAd over them, don't be afraid to jump and far or close dagger to bait a spin. Close dagger hit him out of spin but far dagger will go over his head leaving hm open for a f4 when you land for full combo?
Low hat on block-114 is best and is a great way to start pressure.
Teleport isn't really something to worry about. Even ex can be jumped away or depending on how far they delay the hit she can eh dash through the attack but say if they do over head with Armor I'm pretty sure Eh dash will go through them and you will waste a bar.
Dive kick- proper spacing on iAd and good dash blocking will make them think twice about doing any dive kicks at all.
It comes down to patients. Nightwolf is the reason I feel confident with skarlet. All he has over skarlet in this MU is reflect but that isn't why it's 5-5. KL can't establish any offense without taking risks...with his bad d 3 he best low poke is d1. This causes KL players to spin instead of poking. At the end of strings that are 0 the fastest attack wins when both attack and spin has priority over pokes...but with nw if I do f312 (bait the spin) I get a 45% combo.
All of skarlets string extenders can be interupted by spin if done at the right time if he crouches. However the same technique can be applied to skarlet. Even though she doesn't have strings that are safe on block, by cancelling into eh red dash you can blow up spin. After a reset you can red dash in and block and punish the spin. After a 114 hits dash in and bait the spin. Eh dagger cancels can be cancelled into a back dash baiting a spin and full combo punished. You just need to read your opponent and see when they spin and what there tendencies are.
Once they are afraid to spin, your pressure opens up as if if had never changed...it may or may not be in her favor but these are just reasons why and how she can compete. I think it's her favor though IMO if not 5-5.” L0rdoftheFly
“If Skarlet can convince the Kung Lao to respect certain things, that opens up her normal game (The iaD shuts down his dive kick, She can back dash out of En Dagger xx to try for a whiff punish, Empty dash to bait a spin then punish, etc) All of these options hinge on making the right guess first, which then gets into knowing the person you are facing behind the Kung Lao. Basically, whoever is forced to honor the other players options is at disadvantage, and who ever is able to apply their pressure will win. Sounds like every other fighter, every other fighting game, I just think its heightened with Skarlet V Kung Lao because they are both such high risk high reward characters, and FAST CHARACTERS. Whoever finds an opening better do it quick.” Johnny2d
“Look at street fighter at the highest level of play. It's all and I mean ALL footsies, tick throws, and small combos because the opportunity for the big stuff rarely presents itself. Having the tools makes no difference if your opponent never gives you the opportunity to use them. Dive kick is not really a threat...it has MUCH more risk than reward. Same goes for spin and teleport. These risks can pay off but at the highest level they will be punished more than you think. Your not just blocking either, your biding your time with footsies dash blocks, iAd, and slides. Eventually someone will take a risk and either it will pay off or not. If its against me it will not because I will play more patient than you every time.” L0rdoftheFly
Tools For Success- Skarlet has many options in any fight, so our community conversation was focused on finding specific options as tools for this particular matchup. There is no ‘flow chart’ per se, but there are tricks and tactics that can be helpful in certain situations.
“Skarlet can do neutral Red Dashes without going into slide for mindgames. Skarlet does 1, 1, 4, Red Dash she's at -6, but Skarlet players like to do another 1, 1, 4 which takes 10 frames to execute, which means KL has 16 frames to spin, otherwise he'd have to just frame it. A blockstring like F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Red Dash she's only at -4 so Skarlet can use this to bait a spin.” RedRaptor10
“I like empty Red Dashes to bait spins too, but I'm not too sure about F4 since you'll be at -10 after doing an empty Red Dash. D4, Red Dash seems a bit more safer.” RedRaptor10
“The thing that is essential to making these empty dashes work, comes from how you dash outside of these setups. I think it is crucial to push the contrast of short dash then slide, and long dash then slide. This creates the guessing game and doubt that you need in order to make them hesitate. If you wait until the very last moment in her dash to slide, it looks like the slide is over, once they get hit by 1 or 2 slides that have been delayed to the last possible frame, they won't be able to guess when the slide is over. If you always short dash and slide, then you leave one dash open by not sliding, your trick is obvious. Taking advantage of this sets them up to have doubt when you leave a slide empty later.” Johnny2d
“Ex Daggers Whiffs on Kung Lao if he Crouch block a 114 block string: If you Back Dash he can't do anything, and if he tries to punish with a 6 frames move like Poke or spin it will whiff, wich can be checked with F4 afterwards before he recovers.” Eddy Wang
“d4, ex dash, can eliminate his wake up options. If he uses teleport you just wasted your meter though.” Johnny2d
“Punish teleport with d1 to 212 dc 112” Khaotic_xShangx
“Whiff punish the roll, if you know they are going to roll in on you all day, just walk backwards, KL is kind of fucked if it whiffs, full combo punish.” PerfectMindGame
“If you know hes gonna teleport you just uppercut him. you can d1 punish for full teleport but he lao can do the drop down version which can mess up your timing if the teleport 3 connects youre going to get punished much harder than your d1 punish combo.” PerfectMindGame
“The only way to launch the opponent from standing 1 is to do 1, Red Dash, EX Up Slash. If this is the best way to punish Kung Lao's low hat then it might be useful, but then again it doesn't do much damage for a 1 meter combo (around 30% standing reset, 38% for 2, 3, slide ender). Another option off of standing 1 is to do 1, 1, EX Dagger, safe jump, F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Red Dash, Red Slide (11% + 9% chip). You lose 1 bar and gain a little over half a bar back for 20% damage, whereas if you did the EX Up Slash combo you lose 3/4 of a bar and do 30ish % damage. Idk which is better. I mean it's only 10% more damage (or 20% more if you end the EX Up Slash combo with 2, 3, slide).” RedRaptor10
“Also, Kung Lao is a low hitbox character so both standing 1 and F2 whiff on crouch/crouch block.” RedRaptor10
“I do the 112 alot more than the 114 cause i found out the the ex dagger with 112 hits every crouch block character in the game with the first dagger she throws guaranteeing me the +21 frames so i can automatically get the b11f4 setup unless they neutral crouch the daggers but who does that.” Khaotic_xShangx
“It can work to jump at him to bait a spin, then throw down dagger. This can make him nervous to anti air, but in matches I find it doesn't work consistently as a staple tactic. If you pull this off a bunch of times, the Kung Lao you are facing is failing to make an easy adjustment.” Johnny2d
Media
Eddy Wang: Doodling With Kung Lao 01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUMrg50Mu_E&feature=player_embedded
Eddy Wang: Doodling With Kung Lao 02
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxtnSeB0qAY&feature=player_embedded
Khaotic_xShangx 3:14-3:41
http://www.twitch.tv/kombathouston/b/319077079
Khaotic_xShangx, emp_scar, cat
http://www.twitch.tv/kombathouston/b/319096402
~ The rules are simple, NO FLAMING each other, and NO CRYING FOR BUFFS OR NERFS, for Skarlet or for the opposing character. We are discussing the game at hand, not attempting to change it. All players are welcome and all opinions are valid, as long as they are in service to helping each other get better in the specific matchup that we are discussing. We will discuss one opposing character at a time, and we will give each discussion a week before we move on so we can truly dig deep. If you have a suggestion for the following weeks opposing character, feel free to mention it, then we will vote, and introduce that character the following week.
~ Some of us in the Skarlet community believe this is a tough matchup. Lets discuss why we think this is, and what we can do to circumvent the situations. Lets also attempt to give evidence when possible with frame data or video.
I think the best arguments are informed arguments, so take some time to learn how Kung Lao players are attempting to operate (Link to the UsedForGlue Kung Lao Guide): http://testyourmight.com/threads/kung-lao-2-0-guide.15364/
***The following is a collection of bullet points that happened through a week's worth of conversation (May20th-May27th)***
The Match In Theory
We all know that theory fighting on paper isn’t as good as execution in practice, however these discussions have lead to great advice and points to consider in this matchup. The following is a collection of thoughts and opinions from our community members, take em or leave em. Feel free to read the rest of the thread after this post to see the comments in context.
“This is a very annoying matchup for skarlet depending on how good the Lao user is, i played PL in online matches and he was able to take matches for the sheer fact that lao is faster and more mobile, i hate the facr that its online because i do feel that its a winnable matchup for skarlet u just have to lock lao down when possible, and have a good footsie game and u should come out on top, its a diff ballgame offline, my d1 anti airs and footsie game where not able for the sheer fact of lag, try to be more of the aggressor but a careful agressor, dont wanna eat a wakeup.” FCP/EMP SCAR
“His mobility also seems to be a huge problem and Skarlet can never establish her dagger game because Lao has so many answers to counter them (Teleport, Divkick, etc.) One of the biggest problems though that frustrates me to no end is with his roll. If Lao is zoning with hats from fullscreen it would seem like a good idea to EX Red Dash to stop him BUT he can do is roll and it goes straight through the dash causing you to waste meter for nothing. If a Kung Lao knows about this he can abuse the shit out of it and use roll on Skarlet's wakeup if he reads a dash and he'll be relatively safe while you waste your meter.” Mosp
“Imo, the way KL is being played in general right now, Skarlet needs to be patient and bait KL out. When KL is played at a higher level, I think it will turn into a footsie war which either one could win with the tools they have.” Ninj
“In my opinion Skarlet has her work cut out in this one. There is no way she can throw out overheads Randomly or even in block strings, as Kung Lao can punish heavily in open space. She cannot zone Kung Lao with Daggers, as one, she is not the best Zoner, and even the best zoning characters have serious problems keeping Kung Lao out.
After any Reset or block string ending in a Slide from her Red dash, she has to risk getting spun for even trying a jump, or d3, in fact any buttons, other than a block, or an En red dash, although it is a change to bait spins out of a good Kung Lao player who knows when to spin, and not many of them do, and this scenario will occur even after Kung Lao baits an En Red Dash into Slide.
Kung Lao can d3, uppercut and spin her 112 on crouch block, same as sonya, unless it is from a JIP. Kung Lao can do this from any En Dagger Cancel if he reads it after any reset, and when Kung Lao has XRAY, the game is over for Skarlet. Skarlet's hit box being lowered at D3 is only an inconvenience for Kung Lao at best. So she runs a huge risk in this fight for everything she does.
Its a theoretical 6-4 to Kung Lao, but it can not be even at 5-5, and there are no fundamental flaws in this match to make it 7-3.” UsedForGlue
“I would just have to punish him as hard as possible for everything. Full combo punishes on teleports (If he doesn't try early FK or overheads) Bait spins with Red Dash Slides into D3... Armour every low hat. You just have to out play him and don't try zone him, accept that he will get in.” UsedForGlue
“After PL played emp skar online PL was quoted saying that one of KL only bad MU was skarlet. I tend to agree. I play this MU the way I play it with NW...patient. I dont need daggers at all for this match really. I can punish teleports easily with d1 dagger or even an uppercut. Ex cancels still work. If he tries to spin she can always dash backward and full combo punish after it happens once. Hat is tough but like most 114 is ideal and still leads to good punishes and a guessing game. She can deal with his pressure pretty well, at least the same as most other characters. It's not bad really IMO. I think KL is over rated. Always have and always will.” L0rdoftheFLY
“Kl has a fantastic 6 frame spin, a dive kick at any point in the air with instant recovery, and quick teleport that all can be blown the fuck up if you are patient. she has great options.
Footsies-she has great options here between d4, f4, and slide she has plenty of options here
Low hat from a distance-iAd over them, don't be afraid to jump and far or close dagger to bait a spin. Close dagger hit him out of spin but far dagger will go over his head leaving hm open for a f4 when you land for full combo?
Low hat on block-114 is best and is a great way to start pressure.
Teleport isn't really something to worry about. Even ex can be jumped away or depending on how far they delay the hit she can eh dash through the attack but say if they do over head with Armor I'm pretty sure Eh dash will go through them and you will waste a bar.
Dive kick- proper spacing on iAd and good dash blocking will make them think twice about doing any dive kicks at all.
It comes down to patients. Nightwolf is the reason I feel confident with skarlet. All he has over skarlet in this MU is reflect but that isn't why it's 5-5. KL can't establish any offense without taking risks...with his bad d 3 he best low poke is d1. This causes KL players to spin instead of poking. At the end of strings that are 0 the fastest attack wins when both attack and spin has priority over pokes...but with nw if I do f312 (bait the spin) I get a 45% combo.
All of skarlets string extenders can be interupted by spin if done at the right time if he crouches. However the same technique can be applied to skarlet. Even though she doesn't have strings that are safe on block, by cancelling into eh red dash you can blow up spin. After a reset you can red dash in and block and punish the spin. After a 114 hits dash in and bait the spin. Eh dagger cancels can be cancelled into a back dash baiting a spin and full combo punished. You just need to read your opponent and see when they spin and what there tendencies are.
Once they are afraid to spin, your pressure opens up as if if had never changed...it may or may not be in her favor but these are just reasons why and how she can compete. I think it's her favor though IMO if not 5-5.” L0rdoftheFly
“If Skarlet can convince the Kung Lao to respect certain things, that opens up her normal game (The iaD shuts down his dive kick, She can back dash out of En Dagger xx to try for a whiff punish, Empty dash to bait a spin then punish, etc) All of these options hinge on making the right guess first, which then gets into knowing the person you are facing behind the Kung Lao. Basically, whoever is forced to honor the other players options is at disadvantage, and who ever is able to apply their pressure will win. Sounds like every other fighter, every other fighting game, I just think its heightened with Skarlet V Kung Lao because they are both such high risk high reward characters, and FAST CHARACTERS. Whoever finds an opening better do it quick.” Johnny2d
“Look at street fighter at the highest level of play. It's all and I mean ALL footsies, tick throws, and small combos because the opportunity for the big stuff rarely presents itself. Having the tools makes no difference if your opponent never gives you the opportunity to use them. Dive kick is not really a threat...it has MUCH more risk than reward. Same goes for spin and teleport. These risks can pay off but at the highest level they will be punished more than you think. Your not just blocking either, your biding your time with footsies dash blocks, iAd, and slides. Eventually someone will take a risk and either it will pay off or not. If its against me it will not because I will play more patient than you every time.” L0rdoftheFly
Tools For Success- Skarlet has many options in any fight, so our community conversation was focused on finding specific options as tools for this particular matchup. There is no ‘flow chart’ per se, but there are tricks and tactics that can be helpful in certain situations.
“Skarlet can do neutral Red Dashes without going into slide for mindgames. Skarlet does 1, 1, 4, Red Dash she's at -6, but Skarlet players like to do another 1, 1, 4 which takes 10 frames to execute, which means KL has 16 frames to spin, otherwise he'd have to just frame it. A blockstring like F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Red Dash she's only at -4 so Skarlet can use this to bait a spin.” RedRaptor10
“I like empty Red Dashes to bait spins too, but I'm not too sure about F4 since you'll be at -10 after doing an empty Red Dash. D4, Red Dash seems a bit more safer.” RedRaptor10
“The thing that is essential to making these empty dashes work, comes from how you dash outside of these setups. I think it is crucial to push the contrast of short dash then slide, and long dash then slide. This creates the guessing game and doubt that you need in order to make them hesitate. If you wait until the very last moment in her dash to slide, it looks like the slide is over, once they get hit by 1 or 2 slides that have been delayed to the last possible frame, they won't be able to guess when the slide is over. If you always short dash and slide, then you leave one dash open by not sliding, your trick is obvious. Taking advantage of this sets them up to have doubt when you leave a slide empty later.” Johnny2d
“Ex Daggers Whiffs on Kung Lao if he Crouch block a 114 block string: If you Back Dash he can't do anything, and if he tries to punish with a 6 frames move like Poke or spin it will whiff, wich can be checked with F4 afterwards before he recovers.” Eddy Wang
“d4, ex dash, can eliminate his wake up options. If he uses teleport you just wasted your meter though.” Johnny2d
“Punish teleport with d1 to 212 dc 112” Khaotic_xShangx
“Whiff punish the roll, if you know they are going to roll in on you all day, just walk backwards, KL is kind of fucked if it whiffs, full combo punish.” PerfectMindGame
“If you know hes gonna teleport you just uppercut him. you can d1 punish for full teleport but he lao can do the drop down version which can mess up your timing if the teleport 3 connects youre going to get punished much harder than your d1 punish combo.” PerfectMindGame
“The only way to launch the opponent from standing 1 is to do 1, Red Dash, EX Up Slash. If this is the best way to punish Kung Lao's low hat then it might be useful, but then again it doesn't do much damage for a 1 meter combo (around 30% standing reset, 38% for 2, 3, slide ender). Another option off of standing 1 is to do 1, 1, EX Dagger, safe jump, F2, 1, 2, 1+2, Red Dash, Red Slide (11% + 9% chip). You lose 1 bar and gain a little over half a bar back for 20% damage, whereas if you did the EX Up Slash combo you lose 3/4 of a bar and do 30ish % damage. Idk which is better. I mean it's only 10% more damage (or 20% more if you end the EX Up Slash combo with 2, 3, slide).” RedRaptor10
“Also, Kung Lao is a low hitbox character so both standing 1 and F2 whiff on crouch/crouch block.” RedRaptor10
“I do the 112 alot more than the 114 cause i found out the the ex dagger with 112 hits every crouch block character in the game with the first dagger she throws guaranteeing me the +21 frames so i can automatically get the b11f4 setup unless they neutral crouch the daggers but who does that.” Khaotic_xShangx
“It can work to jump at him to bait a spin, then throw down dagger. This can make him nervous to anti air, but in matches I find it doesn't work consistently as a staple tactic. If you pull this off a bunch of times, the Kung Lao you are facing is failing to make an easy adjustment.” Johnny2d
Media
Eddy Wang: Doodling With Kung Lao 01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUMrg50Mu_E&feature=player_embedded
Eddy Wang: Doodling With Kung Lao 02
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxtnSeB0qAY&feature=player_embedded
Khaotic_xShangx 3:14-3:41
http://www.twitch.tv/kombathouston/b/319077079
Khaotic_xShangx, emp_scar, cat
http://www.twitch.tv/kombathouston/b/319096402
red dash, although it is a change to bait spins out of a good Kung Lao player who knows when to spin, and not many of them do, and this scenario will occur even after Kung Lao baits an 
, the game is over for Skarlet.
