Question - A-List Should a list be nerfed

[omooba]

I think its also important to note Liu kang's armor breaking strings in this discussion (ie: b21 which can be fb cancelled) liu has a lot of good tools -zoning game, fast startups (f1 @ 6 or 7 frames) d3 +1 on block and a very good uppercut, a deceptively long ranged b2 which is also an overhead and gives hard knock down. Dont think he's broken though, his wakeup/reversal game isnt very good although his db2 is safe, it tends to get low profiled.

We should start an A list and Dragon's fire comparison thread lol.

i'll be honest i totaly forgot about b12. i don't thin johnny has an armor breaking string.
regarding an alist vs dragon fire thread. i'd like to point out that if johnny just does d4 against liu kang as oki liu kang just cries because
1) don;t want to block down agaisnt johnny
2) d4 low profiles all my wake up options

 

[Asodimazze]

Which is...still S tier...?

More like A+ tier...

 

[omooba]

The dude he replied to does downplay Kang and not think hes top 5, unless he changed his mind in his last thread

Myself, homies and i think Dizzy believes Cage is S tier

i don't think he's top 5 = downplay
ggs
all i'll say is in every thread where i've talked about kang i always use the word 'nasty' or 'disgusting'

 

[Asodimazze]

i'll be honest i totaly forgot about b12. i don't thin johnny has an armor breaking string.
regarding an alist vs dragon fire thread. i'd like to point out that if johnny just does d4 against liu kang as oki liu kang just cries because
1) don;t want to block down agaisnt johnny
2) d4 low profiles all my wake up options

Don't bother analyzing the Dragon Fire vs A-List matchup lol, it is one of the absolute worst for Cage...and it's been discussed many times already

 

[omooba]

Don't bother analyzing the Dragon Fire vs A-List matchup lol, it is one of the absolute worst for Cage...and it's been discussed many times already

why is it so bad?

 

[Asodimazze]

why is it so bad?

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/johnny-cage-matchup-thread.50951/page-10 check the last 2-3 pages

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Is Johnny S tier? yes
Does he need to get nerfed? Maybe
I have no problems with nerfing some of his cancels (Im looking at you f3 rc f3), But if youre gonna nerf him, I wanna see some low hit boxes get higher so that any string that starts with 1 doesnt whiff

 

[Asodimazze]

Is Johnny S tier? yes
Does he need to get nerfed? Maybe
I have no problems with nerfing some of his cancels (Im looking at you f3 rc f3), But if youre gonna nerf him, I wanna see some low hit boxes get higher so that any string that starts with 1 doesnt whiff

What's the problem with f3 rc f3?

 

[EGP Awesomo]

What's the problem with f3 rc f3?

Too easy and too plus, other than 114 333 and 4, I dont think Johnny should jail. I grew up in an era where plus frames where used to frame trap (+1-+3) and to bait out stuff. But to completely jail? Nah, but in my defense I dont think anybody should jail with fast normal strings (Liu, Dvorah, Johnny, Pre-Patch Hellfire) thats just my 2 cents anyways

 

[THTB]

Don't need to be nerfed because then two johnny variations will be ruined. I don't like that at all.

You don't need to ruin the variation. Hell, you can get away with not really doing a whole lot. Just slight trimmings is fine. Like, does Cage really need the ability to whiff cancel f3? Minor shit like that. Plus, Fisticuffs needs buffed anyway.

I think the overall goal shouldn't just be to nerf blindly, but to do things that will close gaps between characters, as well as gaps between the variations.

 

[omooba]

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/johnny-cage-matchup-thread.50951/page-10 check the last 2-3 pages

one guy mentioned d3 low profiling a lot of cage's options including knee but i don't know about the knee part.
another person said d3 is faster than all cage's mids which isn't true

i feel like the reason so many say it's a bad match up is how much they respect d3 and i don't think they should. it's slow and as a liu kang player i feel like plus 1 isn't that good cus my fastest mid is 10 frames and isn't an advancing string (cus i have none) if cage always d1(8frames) after my d3 worst case scenario for cage is a trade.
getting in from full screen does feel like a challenge for cage.

thy also said liu completely controls the pace of the match up which i don't completely agree with. here's how i see it
full screen 6-4 kang
mid screen 6-4 cage
close range 5.5-4.5
oki 6-4 cage

but idk i could be wrong
i play both against both and i the only times i feel helpless are when kang is zoning and when kang is knockdown

 

[EGP Awesomo]

one guy mentioned d3 low profiling a lot of cage's options including knee but i don't know about the knee part.
another person said d3 is faster than all cage's mids which isn't true

i feel like the reason so many say it's a bad match up is how much they respect d3 and i don't think they should. it's slow and as a liu kang player i feel like plus 1 isn't that good cus my fastest mid is 10 frames and isn't an advancing string (cus i have none) if cage always d1(8frames) after my d3 worst case scenario for cage is a trade.
getting in from full screen does feel like a challenge for cage.

thy also said liu completely controls the pace of the match up which i don't completely agree with. here's how i see it
full screen 6-4 kang
mid screen 6-4 cage
close range 5.5-4.5
oki 6-4 cage

but idk i could be wrong
i play both against both and i the only times i feel helpless are when kang is zoning and when kang is knockdown

I can only speak from experience, but to me the MU feels like 5-5. Ive never had any issues against liu because I just play really passively and win the neutral war

 

[Asodimazze]

Too easy and too plus, other than 114 333 and 4, I dont think Johnny should jail. I grew up in an era where plus frames where used to frame trap (+1-+3) and to bait out stuff. But to completely jail? Nah, but in my defense I dont think anybody should jail with fast normal strings (Liu, Dvorah, Johnny, Pre-Patch Hellfire) thats just my 2 cents anyways

Well if they somehow nerfed f3 rc f3 it wouldn't change anything since f3SKRC would still be around.
I know that, like you, other people don't like blockstrings (with meter or with stamina doesn't matter, a blockstring is a blockstring and an important resource is still being used to do it anyway), but in MKX they are everywhere. It's just how the game works.

You don't need to ruin the variation. Hell, you can get away with not really doing a whole lot. Just slight trimmings is fine. Like, does Cage really need the ability to whiff cancel f3? Minor shit like that. Plus, Fisticuffs needs buffed anyway.

I think the overall goal shouldn't just be to nerf blindly, but to do things that will close gaps between characters, as well as gaps between the variations.

Are we still considering the nerf for a character that is not among the best in the game? Why should A-List be nerfed when he hasn't obtained anything tournament wise, and when there are other characters that are clearly superior like Kung Lao, Liu Kang, Tanya, Quan Chi, Cassie? Enough with this trimming nonsense lol

He is in the same league as Jax, Shinnok, Shaolin Kung Jin, Tremor, D'vorah, Kitana maybe etc.....good characters that no one wants to nerf.

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Well if they somehow nerfed f3 rc f3 it wouldn't change anything since f3SKRC would still be around.
I know that, like you, other people don't like blockstrings (with meter or with stamina doesn't matter, a blockstring is a blockstring and an important resource is still being used to do it anyway), but in MKX they are everywhere. It's just how the game works.



Are we still considering the nerf for a character that is not among the best in the game? Why should A-List be nerfed when he hasn't obtained anything tournament wise, and when there are other characters that are clearly superior like Kung Lao, Liu Kang, Tanya, Quan Chi, Cassie? Enough with this trimming nonsense lol

He is in the same league as Jax, Shinnok, Shaolin Kung Jin, Tremor, D'vorah, Kitana maybe etc.....good characters that no one wants to nerf.

Im not a fan of f3 skrc, that kind of needs to go too. Im not against blockstrings. Blockstrings are in every fighting games, Im against one normal string completely locking down another character removing all options. Seems kind of scrubby. I mean by that logic they should have just left Pre-Patch Hellfire and Pre-Patch Dvorah the same, because why not blockstrings are everywhere. Im only pro jailing if its a slow normal or spends meter

 

[Asodimazze]

Im not a fan of f3 skrc, that kind of needs to go too. Im not against blockstrings. Blockstrings are in every fighting games, Im against one normal string completely locking down another character removing all options. Seems kind of scrubby. I mean by that logic they should have just left Pre-Patch Hellfire and Pre-Patch Dvorah the same, because why not blockstrings are everywhere. Im only pro jailing if its a slow normal or spends meter

Scorpion could get an absurd amount of damage with his blockstring that's probably why he was nerfed.
I honestly don't know if D'Vorah can still jail, she probably can (I don't remember a patch that removed her blockstrings)
If I'm not wrong she only lost her guaranteed 50-50 after during the blockstring. I might be wrong

Anyway, A-List doesn't have much if you take out his blockstrings - plus cancels or reduce their advantage. He is not multidimensional like Liu Kang or Scorpion can be...he has his pressure, and that's it. It's probably the only variation in the game that focuses on offense so much. I don't think nerfing A-List should be considered at all

 

[omooba]

Scorpion could get an absurd amount of damage with his blockstring that's probably why he was nerfed.
I honestly don't know if D'Vorah can still jail, she probably can (I don't remember a patch that removed her blockstrings)
If I'm not wrong she only lost her guaranteed 50-50 after during the blockstring. I might be wrong

Anyway, A-List doesn't have much if you take out his blockstrings - plus cancels or reduce their advantage. He is not multidimensional like Liu Kang or Scorpion can be...he has his pressure, and that's it. It's probably the only variation in the game that focuses on offense so much. I don't think nerfing A-List should be considered at all

what do u mean multi dimensional?
again i'm gonna point out that in ketchup's tier list they said he has the best run cances in the game which i 100% agree with

 

[Predannok]

i don't thin johnny has an armor breaking string.

12 second hit is 6 frames breaks bunch of armor moves slower than 12 frames, so basically all of lius armor options.

 

[THTB]

Well if they somehow nerfed f3 rc f3 it wouldn't change anything since f3SKRC would still be around.
I know that, like you, other people don't like blockstrings (with meter or with stamina doesn't matter, a blockstring is a blockstring and an important resource is still being used to do it anyway), but in MKX they are everywhere. It's just how the game works.



Are we still considering the nerf for a character that is not among the best in the game? Why should A-List be nerfed when he hasn't obtained anything tournament wise, and when there are other characters that are clearly superior like Kung Lao, Liu Kang, Tanya, Quan Chi, Cassie? Enough with this trimming nonsense lol

He is in the same league as Jax, Shinnok, Shaolin Kung Jin, Tremor, D'vorah, Kitana maybe etc.....good characters that no one wants to nerf.

That tournament placings logic...even though people widely considered Kenshi #2 in MK9 and had even more lopsided matchups than Kabal, when only Pig really did anything with him as a main...or Aquaman's only actual winning rep was Theo. Tournament placings are skewed as fuck. They don't represent anything when the top players honestly don't even try to play to the tier list at all.

And I don't buy this "he's not as good as the top" shit, personally. Even then, I wouldn't even suggest taking off major shit. Like I said, minor things. Is removing f3 whiff cancels really going to make him that much worse? No, it's going to mean you'll have to space a little better, continue business as usual otherwise.

The top is getting changed (nerfed), likely more heavily than the one thing I suggested on Cage. I think jailing cancels are stupid, but clearly he's designed around being plus, so honestly, it's not something you can realistically touch that easily. Same with Kang. But it's whatever, there's extra shit you can do to them that won't change the main things about them.

 

[Asodimazze]

what do u mean multi dimensional?
again i'm gonna point out that in ketchup's tier list they said he has the best run cances in the game which i 100% agree with

Honestly I don't know what Ketchup means with "the best run cancel in the game". A blockstring is a blockstring lol. The one with the most consistent blockstring is Liu Kang, f213fbrc rinse and repeat...it works on everyone and doesn't have any just frame.

Maybe he was referring to the fact that Cage can cancel f3 on whiff? I don't know.

Cage is not Multi-Dimensional in the sense that he doesn't really have a plan B. He is a footsie / pressure character. He can't zone out the whole game and win, he can't play a defensive match as good as other characters like Cassie (who also has great offensive and good zoning). He doesn't really have a plan B.
You take away his plus frames? goodbye A-List

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Scorpion could get an absurd amount of damage with his blockstring that's probably why he was nerfed.
I honestly don't know if D'Vorah can still jail, she probably can (I don't remember a patch that removed her blockstrings)
If I'm not wrong she only lost her guaranteed 50-50 after during the blockstring. I might be wrong

Anyway, A-List doesn't have much if you take out his blockstrings - plus cancels or reduce their advantage. He is not multidimensional like Liu Kang or Scorpion can be...he has his pressure, and that's it. It's probably the only variation in the game that focuses on offense so much. I don't think nerfing A-List should be considered at all

I will be the first to admit that Im a hypocrite, I love locking people down with Johnnys pressure. But I think back to Kabal in mk9, other than 2 ndc 2, nothing he did really jailed iirc. Which i think is great, I like the idea behind 121 f24, its like a 2 frame gap. Which im fine with, lets look at heavy weapons jax, a ridic character because of his ability to pressure and bait but everything is negative outside of 4 rc. I know they arent all the same character so we shouldnt treat them as such, but you know jailing is dumb. Dvorah can still do f121 into f121, as for scorpion, if damage was the problem then why not nerf the damage instead of cancel advantage. I like liu kang, I think hes ridic and def needs some toning down in terms of damage and jailing (Johnny is my favorite character so dont think Im just gunning for Johnny, I want a balanced game) but he fails pretty hard in the neutral, his zoning I feel isnt as bad as everyone is making out to be. 1 blocked low fireball midscreen is a free run up f3, you can duck the low fireballs to get in.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Also, can cryo get a basic knife combo string?...and a basic knife move (similar but not similar to ninjistu scorpion)??

 

[EGP Awesomo]

That tournament placings logic...even though people widely considered Kenshi #2 in MK9 and had even more lopsided matchups than Kabal, when only Pig really did anything with him as a main...or Aquaman's only actual winning rep was Theo. Tournament placings are skewed as fuck. They don't represent anything when the top players honestly don't even try to play to the tier list at all.

And I don't buy this "he's not as good as the top" shit, personally. Even then, I wouldn't even suggest taking off major shit. Like I said, minor things. Is removing f3 whiff cancels really going to make him that much worse? No, it's going to mean you'll have to space a little better, continue business as usual otherwise.

The top is getting changed (nerfed), likely more heavily than the one thing I suggested on Cage. I think jailing cancels are stupid, but clearly he's designed around being plus, so honestly, it's not something you can realistically touch that easily. Same with Kang. But it's whatever, there's extra shit you can do to them that won't change the main things about them.

I know your a TYM OG so I know youll probably remember. But remember when everybody said "Sonya is fine, nobody is winning with her" in the 2nd year of MK9? how did that go when they stopped patching and people figured her out

 

[EMPR_MURK]

12 second hit is 6 frames breaks bunch of armor moves slower than 12 frames, so basically all of lius armor options.

Best post...alist and dragons fire are 5-5 imo...

And probably a very hype match to watch offline.

 

[omooba]

Honestly I don't know what Ketchup means with "the best run cancel in the game". A blockstring is a blockstring lol. The one with the most consistent blockstring is Liu Kang, f213fbrc rinse and repeat...it works on everyone and doesn't have any just frame.

Maybe he was referring to the fact that Cage can cancel f3 on whiff? I don't know.

Cage is not Multi-Dimensional in the sense that he doesn't really have a plan B. He is a footsie / pressure character. He can't zone out the whole game and win, he can't play a defensive match as good as other character. He doesn't really have a plan B.
You take away his plus frames? goodbye A-List

don't know what you mean by just frame but i play both and i don't see a difference in skill gap when run cancelling. the thing about cage's run cancels is knee is advancing. liu has no advancing strings.
but yeah the zoning does help. IMO it's the only reason why liu might be better than cage. just my opinion though and with cage i don't have to worry about being able to consistently instant air

 

[THTB]

I know your a TYM OG so I know youll probably remember. But remember when everybody said "Sonya is fine, nobody is winning with her" in the 2nd year of MK9? how did that go when they stopped patching and people figured her out

Eeeexactly.