Question - A-List Should a list be nerfed

[EGP Awesomo]

Best post...alist and dragons fire are 5-5 imo...

And probably a very hype match to watch offline.

See! Im not crazy

 

[Predannok]

what do u mean multi dimensional?
again i'm gonna point out that in ketchup's tier list they said he has the best run cances in the game which i 100% agree with

Dragon fire can pressure OR zone against every non zoning heavy character ( Instant air fireball and low fireballs) , A-list only has hes pressure going on with the [ 11 /11skrc /113skrc /1 f2] mindgame which against characters like Jax, Lao or Cassie with unbreakable armor its very risky cuz armor can and will blow lot of that up.

 

[OutworldKeith]

bullshit
you know johnny's cancels do almost the exact same thing liu kang's does only difference is you might be able to duck at one point haven't tested with the hit advantage but you can armor. and there isn't up to 5 characters in this game who can't do anything about mb flying kick without spending a bar sooooo why is kang so much better? i'm not saying kang isn't disgusting with his zoning and full screen flying kick but johnny gets okay zoning and better pressure IMO. including not having liu kangs problems. no bad pokes, has an advancing string and more

Are you stupid B? How can you say you may be able to duck, then in the same breath say they're the same?

Liu Kang is broken period. Cage is not and his zoning is extremely shitty lol. Stop the nonsense B. Don't even respond I'm sick of seeing your name in my alerts B.

 

[omooba]

Dragon fire can pressure OR zone against every non zoning heavy character ( Instant air fireball and low fireballs) , A-list only has hes pressure going on with the [ 11 /11skrc /113skrc /1 f2] mindgame which against characters like Jax, Lao or Cassie with unbreakable armor its very risky cuz armor can and will blow lot of that up.

a list's run cancels can't all be armored out of [333, f3, 114, maybe 12 not sure] jax's armor is breakable i think. and kang's ex move after running out of stamina gives him more options than mb flying kick. so i don't really see how he's not multidimensional. only thing he's lacking is good zoning not that his zoning is bad just not good

 

[omooba]

Are you stupid B? How can you say you may be able to duck, then in the same breath say they're the same?

Liu Kang is broken period. Cage is not and his zoning is extremely shitty lol. Stop the nonsense B. Don't even respond I'm sick of seeing your name in my alerts B.

then don't reply. and you can't duck all of cage's he has the option to make it a block string that you can't duck. he get's everything liugets with run cancel. you just salty and want kang killed but can't give a reason why he's worlds better than cage
i love it when people get mad and insult me but can't win with logic keep it coming

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Dragon fire can pressure OR zone against every non zoning heavy character ( Instant air fireball and low fireballs) , A-list only has hes pressure going on with the [ 11 /11skrc /113skrc /1 f2] mindgame which against characters like Jax, Lao or Cassie with unbreakable armor its very risky cuz armor can and will blow lot of that up.

Liu can blow up some of the characters u mentioned by using meter on the cancels, and im sure johnny can do the same.

 

[OutworldKeith]

then don't reply. and you can't duck all of cage's he has the option to make it a block string that you can't duck. he get's everything liugets with run cancel. you just salty and want kang killed but can't give a reason why he's worlds better than cage
i love it when people get mad and insult me but can't win with logic keep it coming

Stupid & can't follow directions...we got a special one here. You're a Kang downplayer B it's obvious.

 

[Wigy]

They do basically the same thing.
Liu has a little better zoning.
Johnny has a lot better pokes
They both get roughly 9% inescapable chip
Both don't have 50/50's
Both have bad jump ins
Both have 7frame anti airs
Johnny's d4 option is basically unblockable and safe but liu's b2, also basically unblockable isn't safe
But what really makes a huge difference for me is Johnny's advancing string and Johnny has Jesus' knee

A little better? are you kidding, jc can't zone, only counterzone
Johnnys pokes are better but he hasnt got a 9frame armour breaking check.
Johnnys inescapable chip only does as much damage off a nutpunch -though its not relevant its infinitely harder also.
Agree on 50/50s
Lius jump in is wwaaaaay better, it as least has an okay horizontal hitbox, jc u have to have your balls in their mouth with your feet an inch above the floor
are you honestly comparing a top 3 uppercut in the game to jcs uppercut which has 3cm of horizontal range?
f3 is good yeah, but liu has f44 f2 b2 for space control, not to mention low fireball even.
Also jc doesn't have a really fucking stupid loopable pressure vs any cast with 8frame pokes.
The grand super stupid part, mb dragon kick 3/4 screen free pressure.

Lius meter build is also much better.

JC is fantastic, but get a grip. Liu kang is infinitely better, his only struggle is upclose when hes being pressured, everywhere else he has great control.

stop making comparisons that go into no kind of depth cause it just means nothing.

Have to be an idiot or someone with an agenda to say jc is as good as liu.

 

[omooba]

Liu can blow up some of the characters u mentioned by using meter on the cancels, and im sure johnny can do the same.

i'm curious as to what meterburn cancels frames are do you know them?

 

[Asodimazze]

Liu Kang b12 is the best armor breaking move in the game. Cage 11 or 12 after skrc can break some armor moves, sure..but they just don't compare with b12, which can break almost anything.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

i'm curious as to what meterburn cancels frames are do you know them?

I only know some of them for liu. I don't know any of johnny.

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Well on the topic of nerfs, f3 gets nerfed can we get a 6 frame 1 and d1 <3

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Liu Kang b12 is the best armor breaking move in the game. Cage 11 or 12 after skrc can break some armor moves, sure..but they just don't compare with b12, which can break almost anything.

I think in terms of their cancels and armor breaking, i'd say that they're pretty even.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Which is...still S tier...?

yup

 

[omooba]

A little better? are you kidding, jc can't zone, only counterzone
Johnnys pokes are better but he hasnt got a 9frame armour breaking check.
Johnnys inescapable chip only does as much damage off a nutpunch -though its not relevant its infinitely harder also.
Agree on 50/50s
Lius jump in is wwaaaaay better, it as least has an okay horizontal hitbox, jc u have to have your balls in their mouth with your feet an inch above the floor
are you honestly comparing a top 3 uppercut in the game to jcs uppercut which has 3cm of horizontal range?
f3 is good yeah, but liu has f44 f2 b2 for space control, not to mention low fireball even.
Also jc doesn't have a really fucking stupid loopable pressure vs any cast with 8frame pokes.
The grand super stupid part, mb dragon kick 3/4 screen free pressure.

Lius meter build is also much better.

JC is fantastic, but get a grip. Liu kang is infinitely better, his only struggle is upclose when hes being pressured, everywhere else he has great control.

stop making comparisons that go into no kind of depth cause it just means nothing.

Have to be an idiot or someone with an agenda to say jc is as good as liu.

lemme try and put some depth in my comparison
what's the frames on johnny's 1,2 cus someone in this thread just told me it breaks armor(all of kang's armor moves)
if johnny want's to do liu kang level chip dmg he can with his high run cancels which are inexcapable and he can meterburn fireball for more plus frames than meterburn kick. the difference here is liu kang doesn't have to choose between mids and high's but johnny does. and johnny can full combo off one of his block strings regardless of it's it's 1st 2nd or third time hitting you but liu kang can't.
disagree on liu's jump in. i play both and i liu's is definitely not waaaaay better. both jump in's are shitty. iu's may be slightly better(that's debatable) but waaay better is for sure over stating it
you have to agree that f4 is better than all of liu kan'gs strings for space control. even people who don't want johnny nerfed(me incuded) want f3 nerfed
also do you know how many characters don't have and 8 frame button? i don't but it's less than 5. not enough to call the pressure basically brain dead
liu isn't infinitely better the only thing kang really gets than johnny doesn't come close to is zoning and thats no enough to call him infinitely better

 

[Predannok]

what's the frames on johnny's 1,2 cus someone in this thread just told me it breaks armor(all of kang's armor moves)

second hit of 12 is 6 frames

 

[LeftOverShark]

Like @EMPR_MURK said, I agree that the alist and df kang mu is 5-5 it depends on who starts their pressure first and can maintain it. The thing is that alist and df apply pressure differently. Its just a matter of conserving stamina, attempting to bait armor and knowing when to continue applying pressure.

 

[Predannok]

a list's run cancels can't all be armored out of [333, f3, 114, maybe 12 not sure] jax's armor is breakable i think. and kang's ex move after running out of stamina gives him more options than mb flying kick. so i don't really see how he's not multidimensional. only thing he's lacking is good zoning not that his zoning is bad just not good

Im not talking about hes main cancels beeing armored, im talking about the , 1 f2/ 11 throw / 12[1] f2 and 114 skrc mixup that is essential as soon as ur opponent actually labs with A-list and fuzzy guards everything. Each of them will lose to quick armor moves.

 

[IrishMantis]

i don't think he's top 5 = downplay
ggs
all i'll say is in every thread where i've talked about kang i always use the word 'nasty' or 'disgusting'

Okay apologies if you did

Dragons Fire is SD's worst MU it's about 6.5/7 to Kang

D3 and low fireball are the killers, as Kang forces Cage to jump, Kangs D3 beats Cage F3, F2, SK, Ex SK, jump attacks, when Cage gets in F3 range nothing is really stopping you from mashing D3, also Kang is one of the few chars that can full combo whiff punish Cages D4 consistently with your low starter which is easy mode in tripgaurding Cage
And also Cages fastest poke is 8 frames so Cage cannot poke out of Kangs pressure either
Kang completely shuts down Cages footsies
The only place where Johny beats Kang is in the corner

Plus if I switch to Jax or Kano against Kang the match is a hell of a lot easier

I don't think Cage loses to Cassie, Kotal or Dvirah like some other people do but he most definitely loses to Kang

 

[Vman]

A-list can be annoying, but it's fine the way it is.

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Okay apologies if you did

Dragons Fire is SD's worst MU it's about 6.5/7 to Kang

D3 and low fireball are the killers, as Kang forces Cage to jump, Kangs D3 beats Cage F3, F2, SK, Ex SK, jump attacks, when Cage gets in F3 range nothing is really stopping you from mashing D3, also Kang is one of the few chars that can full combo whiff punish Cages D4 consistently with your low starter which is easy mode in tripgaurding Cage
And also Cages fastest poke is 8 frames so Cage cannot poke out of Kangs pressure either
Kang completely shuts down Cages footsies
The only place where Johny beats Kang is in the corner

Plus if I switch to Jax or Kano against Kang the match is a hell of a lot easier

Like I mentioned I think the trick is when your about midscreen is to just block the low fireball, its enough to get in and either punish OR check with a f3 into pressure. if you see someone just d3'ing to their hearts content just check them with f2. My only issue with mu is when kang is in, your right cages slow poke does hurt. You can of course armor some stuff because unless he does f213 nothing he does jails iirc, so you can just armor him at that point. Its a funky mu if you havent played it alot. This is from A-list perspective, Homies hates the MU and his SD is much better than mine so Id have to take opinion until I grind it out myself

 

[IrishMantis]

Like I mentioned I think the trick is when your about midscreen is to just block the low fireball, its enough to get in and either punish OR check with a f3 into pressure. if you see someone just d3'ing to their hearts content just check them with f2. My only issue with mu is when kang is in, your right cages slow poke does hurt. You can of course armor some stuff because unless he does f213 nothing he does jails iirc, so you can just armor him at that point. Its a funky mu if you havent played it alot. This is from A-list perspective, Homies hates the MU and his SD is much better than mine so Id have to take opinion until I grind it out myself

Man it's a rare chance your catching Jang with consistent Whiff punishes with F2 it's more likely your catching Kang pressing something after it

Yeah just block, but Cage can't even jump and punish Kangs Low fireball on a read it's silly, you get to a range you know one more fireball your in, so wait or it and he runs in pressures instead

I can tell you if I go against Xaraka in a tourney I will not be picking Cage that's for sure

Also kerp in mind how shirty SDs fireballs us and before you say tide MSK that's just kitting him with 7% twice and given up pressure when you finally get in as SD needs them for his pressure than waiting 7 seconds for them to recharge

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Man it's a rare chance your catching Jang with consistent Whiff punishes with F2 it's more likely your catching Kang pressing something after it

Yeah just block, but Cage can't even jump and punish Kangs Low fireball on a read it's silly, you get to a range you know one more fireball your in, so wait or it and he runs in pressures instead

I can tell you if I go against Xaraka in a tourney I will not be picking Cage that's for sure

Hes coming to the EGP weekly next week, so Im gonna try this stuff out against one of the top DF kangs (obviously everyone I play isnt a top offline kang) so Ill come back with info haha

 

[IrishMantis]

Hes coming to the EGP weekly next week, so Im gonna try this stuff out against one of the top DF kangs (obviously everyone I play isnt a top offline kang) so Ill come back with info haha

Tell him to abuse D3 and low fireball, play pure scumbag mode

 

[Wigy]

lemme try and put some depth in my comparison
what's the frames on johnny's 1,2 cus someone in this thread just told me it breaks armor(all of kang's armor moves)
if johnny want's to do liu kang level chip dmg he can with his high run cancels which are inexcapable and he can meterburn fireball for more plus frames than meterburn kick. the difference here is liu kang doesn't have to choose between mids and high's but johnny does. and johnny can full combo off one of his block strings regardless of it's it's 1st 2nd or third time hitting you but liu kang can't.
disagree on liu's jump in. i play both and i liu's is definitely not waaaaay better. both jump in's are shitty. iu's may be slightly better(that's debatable) but waaay better is for sure over stating it
you have to agree that f4 is better than all of liu kan'gs strings for space control. even people who don't want johnny nerfed(me incuded) want f3 nerfed
also do you know how many characters don't have and 8 frame button? i don't but it's less than 5. not enough to call the pressure basically brain dead
liu isn't infinitely better the only thing kang really gets than johnny doesn't come close to is zoning and thats no enough to call him infinitely better

fireballs can be interrupted and low profiled and have too much pushback for anything except f3, so they can backdash or armour. Also it doesn't fly you 3/4screen and sit u right next to them.

b12 for liu is way better than 12 for breaking armour and also can be low profiled. On wakeup jc cant just do 12 like liu can do b12 cause its a high.

12 rc has nowhere near as much chip as lius strings.

f44 obviously isn't better than f3 but with alllll your options your space control/footsies is just as good.

taleda d'vora both high tier and get destroyed by liu

You say you play both of them, your lack of knowledge on cage is shockingly bad for someone you play so im guna stop this argument as you clearly don't know the character. Sorry to be a dick about it.