Match-up Discussion Shazam Match-Up Discussion

[Indecisive]

I like your icon! Even with instant air nova blast and stuff Cyborg is even? What makes you say that? Not shitting on your list, just curious. I thought Aquaman was generally a better matchup for Shazam? I like it for the most part. Im essentially in the same boat as Indecisive.

Consistent IANB Over all. Fucking Jailhouse

 

[shinobispectre]

@shinobispectre
@pogse
@TKT ZigZag
@imblackjames
@EGP Wonder_Chef
@mfkaoz
@Indecisive
@Digit

@The Rest of the Shazam Army


http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/injustice/character/shazam/

What do you guys think of this MU chart? Pretty accurate? The tough ones tend toward the bottom while the ones we can deal with tend towards the top, which works for me. I personally think Bane is one of our easier MUs but still takes practice to do well, Grundy might be our easiest.

I think it's actually gotten worse since the last time I checked... I think the chart is still influenced by less experienced players. Joker and Scorpion are the only favorable matchups because they are generally considered the worst characters in game and nothing to merit actual favorable matchups. I do not agree with Superman being his worst matchup. One of Shazam's losing or unfavorable? Yes. But worst? There are better contenders i.e. Nightwing, Green Arrow, or Green Lantern. Heck I think Deathstroke is by far way worse than Superman whose zoning is easier to read/go through. The averages specifically the ones with the unfavorable matchup I feel are people with little matchup knowledge simply throwing numbers they feel. A lot of these matchups change a lot with a Shazam who play patiently and forces them to come to him.

Overall the matchups can be explored more especially with changing matchup perception like Martian or Hawkgirl. This snapshot is just the general perception for now and speaks more about the room left to explore rather than concrete matchups.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I like your icon! Even with instant air nova blast and stuff Cyborg is even? What makes you say that? Not shitting on your list, just curious. I thought Aquaman was generally a better matchup for Shazam? I like it for the most part. Im essentially in the same boat as Indecisive.

If he does a bunch of consistently instant iafbs, you can duck and then immediately tele to go through the next one, then duck the one after that etc. Obviously he can change up his game a bit but Shazam has more tools than most to get through the fireballs.

Also once we get in, we can hit him VERY hard. His wakeups are very easy to bait, since they are 1 hit and keep him stationary. Our damage counts for a lot too, since his is so low.

 

[ZigZag]

@shinobispectre
@pogse
@TKT ZigZag
@imblackjames
@EGP Wonder_Chef
@mfkaoz
@Indecisive
@Digit

@The Rest of the Shazam Army


http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/injustice/character/shazam/

What do you guys think of this MU chart? Pretty accurate? The tough ones tend toward the bottom while the ones we can deal with tend towards the top, which works for me. I personally think Bane is one of our easier MUs but still takes practice to do well, Grundy might be our easiest.

I agree with most considering how they're doing it, I don't think superman is his worst overall but it's pretty much just 4-6 So that's still pretty much right.
I can't disagree with many if any of these really, you know you could give or take a little but not by much.

 

[ZigZag]

I'd say he has moe favourable ones or 5's but I'm a strong up player of this character.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Looks at list. Some of these i actually agree with some i do not. Bane i think is Even. Cyborg i think is either 5-5 or in Cyborgs Favor. Hawkgirl May be 5-5(The most Derpy MU). Doomsday i have to play it more TBH. Grundy i think may be Even. Joker i think is even. Black Adam, Flash, WoWo, KF, Zod i think we lose to. Scorpion i think we beat. Sinestro i may actually agree with.

I can at the very least guarantee you that after a lot of labbing and playing Tyrant in tournament a lot, Shazam win the Grundy matchup.

I feel like Hawkgirl is our favor because among other things, she can't deal with teleport well (either forward or backward) and our air to airs do so damn much damage.

Doomsday it's the fact that every Earthshaker that he hits means we get to get out for free (unless we're in the corner, then he still has to guess pretty hard.) On top of that the damage difference is rather large. It's hard for Doomsday to catch up to Shazam in general.

Joker can't oki us while we can oki him well, and I feel like our neutral tools beat out his. The only annoying thing is his j3, but again, our air to airs get us a lot and his don't get him much.

Black Adam is another character that if he gets knocked down he can lose his entire health bar relatively easily, because his wakeups are single hitting and keep him in place. Also he can't assert air dominance because air to air j2 can hurt him soooo bad. It even beats dive kicks pretty clean.

Flash idk I just keep hearing people say this. I honestly don't know as well as I would like to so I just left it at 5-5.

WoWo has to play pretty honest in this matchup. She can't air dash in for free because Shazam's D2 and air to air J2 are so good, and his strong backdash lets him whiff punish a lot of her strings. She (mostly) loses her strong oki game, while ours works on her great (you can bait her wakeups by just blocking.) Also our damage is similar.

KF is weird, we can stay patient and make it in, then it's all about baiting that slide, and Shazam has a good jump back 2 for that (that nets him 52% into oki for a bar!) We also force KF to do her meter vortex, since afaik we can teleport pretty easily out of her meterless u3 one. We still get mixed up though, but both chars basically get to mix shit up on the other pretty well once they land a hit. Shazam's damage is like twice hers though, which I think relatively counterbalances the zoning game.

Zod is weird as fuck. Everything is going all over the place and nobody knows wtf is going on. His wakeup game is very baitable with a MB F3, so we always have that. When he summons his trait, we have the mobility to give it problems. Teleport and Torpedo make it hard for the trait to track us, and if he summons it raw we get a free dash in into some sort of mixup. Also we can do shit like teleporting over mb ground lasers and full combo punishing, or teleporting through instant air zod balls. Could be slight Zod advantage though, not sure.


We might beat Scorpion. Damage alone makes this nice. You have to bait all of his wakeups in different weird ways though which is a bitch. Could be 6-4 for sure, I usually win this matchup I think.

 

[Indecisive]

I can at the very least guarantee you that after a lot of labbing and playing Tyrant in tournament a lot, Shazam win the Grundy matchup.

I feel like Hawkgirl is our favor because among other things, she can't deal with teleport well (either forward or backward) and our air to airs do so damn much damage.

Doomsday it's the fact that every Earthshaker that he hits means we get to get out for free (unless we're in the corner, then he still has to guess pretty hard.) On top of that the damage difference is rather large. It's hard for Doomsday to catch up to Shazam in general.

Joker can't oki us while we can oki him well, and I feel like our neutral tools beat out his. The only annoying thing is his j3, but again, our air to airs get us a lot and his don't get him much.

Black Adam is another character that if he gets knocked down he can lose his entire health bar relatively easily, because his wakeups are single hitting and keep him in place. Also he can't assert air dominance because air to air j2 can hurt him soooo bad. It even beats dive kicks pretty clean.

Flash idk I just keep hearing people say this. I honestly don't know as well as I would like to so I just left it at 5-5.

WoWo has to play pretty honest in this matchup. She can't air dash in for free because Shazam's D2 and air to air J2 are so good, and his strong backdash lets him whiff punish a lot of her strings. She (mostly) loses her strong oki game, while ours works on her great (you can bait her wakeups by just blocking.) Also our damage is similar.

KF is weird, we can stay patient and make it in, then it's all about baiting that slide, and Shazam has a good jump back 2 for that (that nets him 52% into oki for a bar!) We also force KF to do her meter vortex, since afaik we can teleport pretty easily out of her meterless u3 one. We still get mixed up though, but both chars basically get to mix shit up on the other pretty well once they land a hit. Shazam's damage is like twice hers though, which I think relatively counterbalances the zoning game.

Zod is weird as fuck. Everything is going all over the place and nobody knows wtf is going on. His wakeup game is very baitable with a MB F3, so we always have that. When he summons his trait, we have the mobility to give it problems. Teleport and Torpedo make it hard for the trait to track us, and if he summons it raw we get a free dash in into some sort of mixup. Also we can do shit like teleporting over mb ground lasers and full combo punishing, or teleporting through instant air zod balls. Could be slight Zod advantage though, not sure.


We might beat Scorpion. Damage alone makes this nice. You have to bait all of his wakeups in different weird ways though which is a bitch. Could be 6-4 for sure, I usually win this matchup I think.

The reason Flash is hard is because he can punish most of our options. He is actually able to punish our WU game. He has Auto Correcting Strings to chase us. So for the most part we have to play more safe. D2 Pretty much beats Scorpion. Like In Foosties game and in Anti Air Game. The Issue with WoWo is her Foostie game is a lot better. But it may be 5-5. Still playing around with it against KDZ more. Joker Makes Sense. I dont have any Black Adam Experience. I know hard to believe right. The only Doomsday experience i had was with White Boy. And i did better than a lot of people on my first try than others who have Doomsday experience. First try i was blocking Earth Shaker. Not Consistently but more than i should have TBH. Some of the things you are saying make sense. Zod we can also stuff his WU's without F3. Just have to time it right. The Issue with KF is her Vortex. It comes down to Luck/Skill if you get hit with it or not.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

The reason Flash is hard is because he can punish most of our options. He is actually able to punish our WU game. He has Auto Correcting Strings to chase us. So for the most part we have to play more safe.

Could be bad, like I said I need way more experience in this matchup. I know back when his d2 was plus I thought it might have been his worst match. He could seriously just spam d2...

The Issue with KF is her Vortex. It comes down to Luck/Skill if you get hit with it or not.

Yeah but we have a vortex too =] Our is just less safe but way more reward.

 

[Indecisive]

Could be bad, like I said I need way more experience in this matchup. I know back when his d2 was plus I thought it might have been his worst match. He could seriously just spam d2...



Yeah but we have a vortex too =] Our is just less safe but way more reward.

I also need to play it more. But it may be a 5.5-4.5. Also this is very true.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

This is MashPotatoTower's list.

He's banned so I'm posting for him:

Bane 6-4
Grundy 6-4
Doomsday 6-4
Batgirl 6-4
Scorpion 6-4
Martian Man Hunter 6-4

Hawk girl 5-5
Lex Luthor 5-5
Cyborg 5-5
Lobo 5-5
Flash 5-5
Green lantern 5-5
Harley 5-5
Joker 5-5
Ares 5-5
Catwoman 5-5
Batman 5-5
Wonder Woman 5-5
Aquaman 5-5
Black Adam 5-5
General Zod 5-5
Sinestro 5-5

Deathstroke 4-6
Superman 4-6
NightWing 4-6
Green Arrow 4-6
Raven 4-6
Killer Frost 4-6
Zantanna 4-6

 

[SZSR]

Id like to hear why MPT thinks GL is 5-5 and Harley for that matter

 

[Indecisive]

This is MashPotatoTower's list.

He's banned so I'm posting for him:

Bane 6-4
Grundy 6-4
Doomsday 6-4
Batgirl 6-4
Scorpion 6-4
Martian Man Hunter 6-4

Hawk girl 5-5
Lex Luthor 5-5
Cyborg 5-5
Lobo 5-5
Flash 5-5
Green lantern 5-5
Harley 5-5
Joker 5-5
Ares 5-5
Catwoman 5-5
Batman 5-5
Wonder Woman 5-5
Aquaman 5-5
Black Adam 5-5
General Zod 5-5
Sinestro 5-5

Deathstroke 4-6
Superman 4-6
NightWing 4-6
Green Arrow 4-6
Raven 4-6
Killer Frost 4-6
Zantanna 4-6

I enjoy the drugs he is on from time to time. And wish i could have some. :/. I know why he thinks WoWo is 5/5. And lantern. Im surprised he put MMH as a winning MU for Shazam. O_O. Thats Bold very Bold. Also Guys did you know that When MMH is putting up an Orb he is Throw Immune. So Fun. :/. It is interesting that Lantern is 5-5. But we lose to Super Man and Arrow and DS. What is his Reason for GL being a 5-5?

 

[mfkaoz]

MPT is the ultimate upplayer. I agree with most of the list but there are some I'd change.

MMH 5-5
BG 5-5
GL 4-6 or 3-7
Flash 4-6
Wowo 4-6
Black Adam 4-6

 

[juicepouch]

Id like to hear why MPT thinks GL is 5-5 and Harley for that matter

doesn't GL only have wakeup lift? I would guess he's betting on the MU swinging in Shazam's favor after he gets a knockdown, but I'm just speculating. I'm only a recreational shazam these days

 

[Indecisive]

doesn't GL only have wakeup lift? I would guess he's betting on the MU swinging in Shazam's favor after he gets a knockdown, but I'm just speculating. I'm only a recreational shazam these days

On Knock Down its pretty bad for GL yes. But in every other instance Life sucks for Shazam in that MU.

 

[shinobispectre]

I am stuck on the Grundy matchup... I seem to do well then I'll drop the match like a hot potato or something. Is it better to stay away or mid range? Close range Grundy is stronger right? What do you guys find most successful in the matchup? A timed b2,3 works wonders on people who don't WC cancel but after that... I get lost. I punish and keep him at range but struggle timing against swamp hands.

 

[Indecisive]

I am stuck on the Grundy matchup... I seem to do well then I'll drop the match like a hot potato or something. Is it better to stay away or mid range? Close range Grundy is stronger right? What do you guys find most successful in the matchup? A timed b2,3 works wonders on people who don't WC cancel but after that... I get lost. I punish and keep him at range but struggle timing against swamp hands.

@EGP Wonder_Chef Ill let you handle this

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I am stuck on the Grundy matchup... I seem to do well then I'll drop the match like a hot potato or something. Is it better to stay away or mid range? Close range Grundy is stronger right? What do you guys find most successful in the matchup? A timed b2,3 works wonders on people who don't WC cancel but after that... I get lost. I punish and keep him at range but struggle timing against swamp hands.

I play really stupid against grundy tbh. A lot of B2 xx Torpedo or B2 xx Teleport. Bully the crap out of him with those, he can't do too much about it. Just kinda go crazy. Once he starts getting scared and standing still, HM him for hella damage.

Here are some matches of me vs Tyrant

 

[arde5643]

Disagree about the Bane MU - I feel that Bane wins this 6-4 or at least soft 6-4 (5.5 and so on) simply due to footsies.

If the Bane plays this MU wrong (ie. depends too much on venom and not using correct spacing blowing up Shazam's dashes and trying too much to oki Shazam), Bane will get bodied by Shazam's speed and damage on debuff.

Shazam's problem is Bane even w/o venom already bodies Shazam on neutral and footsies. Bane doesn't need oki much in this MU since by design, Bane's buttons are way better than Shazam's (d1 and d2 beat all of Shazam's dashes and jump-ins). Bane's d1 also recovers fast allowing him to block attempts from walk forward MB b3. Bane also has the best backdash in the game allowing him to escape all of HM mix-ups but not torpedo, where Bane can punish torpedo on block when guessed correctly.
Just like Bane who cannot oki Shazam on WU, Shazam also cannot oki Bane on WU due to venom and Bane's great WU game.

Typical Bane mistakes to take advantage off:
debuff from level 3 and even level 2 whenever Shazam escapes Bane's oki
Bane going in with venom instead of waiting patiently/walking Shazam to the corner and d1'ing/d2'ing all of Shazam's attempts to get in
Bane trying to oki Shazam instead of blowing up teleport (Max always try to blow up tele instead - he prefers letting Shazam stand up than getting away from corner with tele)

 

[shinobispectre]

In the Bane matchup, does Shazam need to go in? Why? Bane blows up Shazam close range. Shazam fares better playing his sub par zoning game and whiff punishing. I also feel Bane has the advantage of controlling interactable usage. It's not as easy to throw stuff at him sadly.

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

Shazam doesn't even want to see Bane on the other side of the street let alone the same screen. Shazam doesn't need to go in ever...but since there are corners in fighting games you have to fight your way out. Can't just torpedo out, you have to actually fight him. And it's hair pulling annoyance to attempt to hit a button in the matchup because you know you aren't in range for anything.

Realistically you should hit and run and not always run. You need him to pump venom up when he's not near you. You need him to think you are in range for things so he'll venom up to get to you and hit you. I don't exactly understand why they do it, but they'll venom up when you're close. I just assume the Bane heavens consider blocking while in venom a sin or something. You realistically need to be unpredictable in what you do. Lightning bolts are a free charge for Bane just about anywhere if he's paying attention. Very hard to chuck those in the matchup. Instead just build meter by whiffing grabs and teleports.

But engaging Bane? You can't beat d1 or d2. You cant even whiff punish them. The best you can do is make him think you'll jump out, so he jumps at you for some reason, and then dash under him and run or punish his jump in with a grab.

Shazam can oki bane just fine. He does nothing(lol) HM. He does VU, backdash, HM punish. He does grab, b23 it. You gotta make that shitty shitty read. And boy is it a shitty read. It's almost better to just let him get up. BUT, you can oki him if you want. It's just not easy. Luckily if you guess right twice he's in debuff. Your combos take a while.

Bane wins though. Get bent.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Shazam can oki bane just fine. He does nothing(lol) HM. He does VU, backdash, HM punish. He does grab, b23 it. You gotta make that shitty shitty read. And boy is it a shitty read. It's almost better to just let him get up. BUT, you can oki him if you want. It's just not easy. Luckily if you guess right twice he's in debuff. Your combos take a while.

Bane wins though. Get bent.

How is it such a shitty read if he can't punish backdash which beats all of his wakeups?

 

[Indecisive]

Shazam doesn't even want to see Bane on the other side of the street let alone the same screen. Shazam doesn't need to go in ever...but since there are corners in fighting games you have to fight your way out. Can't just torpedo out, you have to actually fight him. And it's hair pulling annoyance to attempt to hit a button in the matchup because you know you aren't in range for anything.

Realistically you should hit and run and not always run. You need him to pump venom up when he's not near you. You need him to think you are in range for things so he'll venom up to get to you and hit you. I don't exactly understand why they do it, but they'll venom up when you're close. I just assume the Bane heavens consider blocking while in venom a sin or something. You realistically need to be unpredictable in what you do. Lightning bolts are a free charge for Bane just about anywhere if he's paying attention. Very hard to chuck those in the matchup. Instead just build meter by whiffing grabs and teleports.

But engaging Bane? You can't beat d1 or d2. You cant even whiff punish them. The best you can do is make him think you'll jump out, so he jumps at you for some reason, and then dash under him and run or punish his jump in with a grab.

Shazam can oki bane just fine. He does nothing(lol) HM. He does VU, backdash, HM punish. He does grab, b23 it. You gotta make that shitty shitty read. And boy is it a shitty read. It's almost better to just let him get up. BUT, you can oki him if you want. It's just not easy. Luckily if you guess right twice he's in debuff. Your combos take a while.

Bane wins though. Get bent.

I really think its a 5-5.

 

[SZSR]

@EGP Wonder_Chef
@Indecisive

Please, help me out in the Superman MU. I can't ever move.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

@EGP Wonder_Chef
@Indecisive

Please, help me out in the Superman MU. I can't ever move.

I have a secret combo in that matchup:

Start > Left > Left > A



Seriously though it's hard man. Be super patient, know that you are going to take a lot of chip. Don't let it freak you out, you just have to accept it.