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Scorpion General Discussion

Ok, but Foxy lost, and lost badly, against a Scorpion that wasn’t even Scar’s main. So either Foxy was wrong about his own skill, or wrong about Scorpion being overrated. And that’s the thing people need to remember: pros don’t know everything, and really they only know stuff that applies at their level of play, which most of us will never achieve. Scorpion’s tp has a floor effect to its usefulness. Yes, a pro can use it better than a casual, but it’s probably the single best move in the game, and just having access to it dramatically improves a casual player’s success. It’s not a hard tool to use. No game should be balanced solely around top-level play, because that means you’re taking only a tiny, tiny fraction of all players into account. Scorp’s tp isn’t only too good, it’s too EASY. It’s tough to make it more complicated, so it needs to be less good. But if I’m wrong, someone by all means show me who Scorp’s bad matchups are.
i wouldn't exactly call cassie foxy's main. if anything foxy has been playing cassie as much as scar has been playing scorpion. scorpion is most certainly overrated. i've heard people say he's the best character in the game and this is an over exaggeration. ok but a casual's success, someone extremely below anyone that makes top 16 should have very little input in what goes in terms of balance. a lot of casuals don't play seriously, don't train seriously, and don't want to put in the work seriously. a lot of casuals probably don't even play online. it shouldn't be solely balanced around top player opinion because some of them could be hard bias to shift the meta towards their playstyle or to keep their characters strong but there are some who can see what clearly is wrong about the game and may have a believe case as to what should be changed. all casuals do is complain and cry nerf or buff. that's not something nrs should be listening to but they often do anyway and we have to suffer for it with bad balance. sure scorpion's teleport is strong but I'm almost positive that scorpion would get hit too hard with the nerfs because of casual outcry.
 
Dunno, I thought Scar's Scorpion is clean and calculated as fuck. Seemed like he only busted out the stupid when he felt like Foxy was scared.
they act like scar just picked scorpion for the hell of it when he probably has good experience fighting scorpion and playing scorpion. i don't even think hayatei picked scorpion all of combo breaker
 

Jhob5

Noob
so what is the actual OS for telecancel? I wanna know so I can confirm single hits lol. Not the confirm the confirm off two hits is pretty easy with telecancel
 
Ok I've tried to raise the topic indirectly multiple times, but I guess I'll have to do it more directly, especially since there's no thread dedicated to the topic: does Scorp currently have any bad/difficult matchups at all? Like I can't think of a single matchup that I'd consider worse than 5/5 for him, and nobody else that I've seen has been discussing them.
 

xenogorgeous

Seriously .... really ?
Premium Supporter
Ok I've tried to raise the topic indirectly multiple times, but I guess I'll have to do it more directly, especially since there's no thread dedicated to the topic: does Scorp currently have any bad/difficult matchups at all? Like I can't think of a single matchup that I'd consider worse than 5/5 for him, and nobody else that I've seen has been discussing them.
yep, very interesting point of view here .... Scorpion seems to be the most stable of all, with no real bad matchups, and maximum 5-5 tied to some others, like Sonya, Jacqui, Erron etc .... I think this was made purposely by Ed Boon in this game, haha :DOGE
 
Today I Reborn. I got a message that I win only due to the teleport especially the cancel lol.
It was written by a teleport and dive kick spammer after the 2nd match and I did not really use teleport outside combos lol.

By the way it is very easy to get used to the block confirm tele cancel into D4 or any pressure as nobody are prepared (low-mid level playing). That makes a bit disappointing playing Reborn lol.
But of course it brings more adrenalin lol.

With searing rage I was more patient. Now who cares about blocked b14 lol.

Maybe my footsie play does not improve with Reborn. So I need to play Erron Black too. :)
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Ok I've tried to raise the topic indirectly multiple times, but I guess I'll have to do it more directly, especially since there's no thread dedicated to the topic: does Scorp currently have any bad/difficult matchups at all? Like I can't think of a single matchup that I'd consider worse than 5/5 for him, and nobody else that I've seen has been discussing them.
No one knows with any amount of certainty yet. Right now there’s no clear cut bad matchups for Scorpion. He seems pretty even with most characters and could possibly win some matchups vs heavy zoners.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

  • escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
  • forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
  • creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
  • hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport
Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

  • more damage potential because of Burning Spear
  • excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents
However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?
 
So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

  • escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
  • forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
  • creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
  • hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport
Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

  • more damage potential because of Burning Spear
  • excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents
However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?
Agreed. Came to the realization I was playing the worse variation watching scar. Tele cancel is a free turn. The tele vs cancel pressure is disgusting. Scar showed you don't event need to breakaway. Just save d meter for wakeup attacks and tele cancel.

Demon slam is somewhat useful in some MUs, though I wish it were virtually anything else.
 

BuffRaiden

Nerf Erron's F4 Already
I've thought Reborn was significantly better for a while now.

I still don't think he needs any nerfs beyond mb teleport on block. It's just a well designed character.

I main Kabal, but find scorpion really fun to play. I fall into the camp of thinking he's overrated as well and to touch any of his frames on normals or strings seems overkill when his best tool is the teleport cancel mind games.
 
S
So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

  • escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
  • forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
  • creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
  • hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport
Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

  • more damage potential because of Burning Spear
  • excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents
However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?
Agreed
 

Jhonnykiller45

Shirai Ryu
So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

  • escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
  • forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
  • creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
  • hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport
Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

  • more damage potential because of Burning Spear
  • excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents
However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?
Sure. I guess you could add in a cheeky mix-up for Searing Rage between F3 throw or F32 but that's not "real". 2+4 is a gapless followup to 21 but it has no + frames. And, I've found that Death Spin actually works pretty well as an anti-air, hits like half screen away if the opponent is too jump happy.
 

BuffRaiden

Nerf Erron's F4 Already
Wild Idea, but simply strip him of the ability to teleport in the air. Would certainly be nicer to play against, and he'd actually have to play the game, while still enforcing his cancel mind games.
 
Today I Reborn. I got a message that I win only due to the teleport especially the cancel lol.
It was written by a teleport and dive kick spammer after the 2nd match and I did not really use teleport outside combos lol.

By the way it is very easy to get used to the block confirm tele cancel into D4 or any pressure as nobody are prepared (low-mid level playing). That makes a bit disappointing playing Reborn lol.
But of course it brings more adrenalin lol.

With searing rage I was more patient. Now who cares about blocked b14 lol.
Staaaaahp...
 
So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

  • escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
  • forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
  • creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
  • hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport
Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

  • more damage potential because of Burning Spear
  • excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents
However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?
I agree however in practice if you use your defensive meter recklessly you can be in trouble without wake up and break away.
It is easy to spend it after 2 block strings (for pressure or for escape) and if you are caught you can not defend yourself for a long time (against oki, bnb). So you are given the freedom to use your meter as you want but pay the price in case of punish.
If you use cancel+regular teleport mind game you are not much safer than searing with F32. Both used for making pressure working better (SR for more stagger respect, Reborn to start pressure).
Right now the risk reward factor looks pretty good for Scorpion though (as they do not really challenge cancel and do not punish teleport lol).
I really enjoy crazy timing cancels especially close to death as "who cares para-port" works pretty well. For this reason it is pretty cheap come back factor. :)
Tele cancel after F3 and B2 is pretty crazy though it makes the cancel so powerful and enhance the footsie tools very much.

On the other hand Searing Rage is the variation which naturally stacks defensive meter for wake up / break away and you take the risk with F32 or death spin (former is more reward on read). With F32 you can force stand block after F3 which opens up opportunities for D3 as well.
And another good use of def meter is to use it for flawless block counter - with SR you might defend more as with Reborn you escape more.

For me Searing Rage looks pretty well rounded and more clean than Reborn - but it does not matter when you see the efficiency of the character.
 
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Zhidoreptiloid

Watcher from the sky
Searing rage make f3 more scare - that is not just stagger, that have 2 followups - f3*4 which you can fl. block, or just stagger f3. If You try to duck without blocking and then immediately fl. block to avoid both variants - that will not work with searing rage and his f32 gapeless overhead. People start to respect your f3 even more, which open them to your easy throws without ducking
 
Searing rage make f3 more scare - that is not just stagger, that have 2 followups - f3*4 which you can fl. block, or just stagger f3. If You try to duck without blocking and then immediately fl. block to avoid both variants - that will not work with searing rage and his f32 gapeless overhead. People start to respect your f3 even more, which open them to your easy throws without ducking
I tell you the secret: F32 2nd hit is the same frame as F34. It can be flawless blocked and punished too.

However F32xx tele can punish flawless block counter as well (I did not test with Geras' 6F U2 though).

That creates even more mind game.

I labbed that pretty much and found that if you wait for F32/F34 with FB timing you still can tech throw. However you can be punished for it If Scorpion does anything else.

Go to practice room and you will see.

Only the fact that F32 is OH is a good thing as you can expect stand blocking opponent (D3, F4, S2 can work).
If you play safe and always block F32/F34 Scorpion will be plus for more pressure. Not only throw is annoying but all the other options. Opponent will not keep himself being staggered all the time and will press buttons. And that's when you can risk F32 or use F34 (KB). Matter of condition.

I think searing rage can play F3 stagger game a bit better due to F32 but Reborn can play other mind games.

But if you only use cancel for creating space (and being safe) and not offensively it is still strong. With offensive tele you take extra risk against a good opponent (cancel alone is not free pressure).

Online I run into lot of people who does not really care about anything but mash. Or they do not even think about any mind game I mentioned above. Against them everything works but so random lol.
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

  • escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
  • forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
  • creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
  • hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport
Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

  • more damage potential because of Burning Spear
  • excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents
However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?
Death Spin (df4) is used for more than that. It can be used in footsies or to whiff punish a lot of stuff. Not as good as say Demon Dash would be at doing the same thing, but Demon Dash isn’t in a tournament variation. It also is a great anti air. You can use it the instant they jump. You cannot use it to aa if you do it too late though.

It also is hard to punish on block if spaced properly. Some characters cannot even punish it. That means in those MU’s Searing Rage is incredibly strong, imo.
 
Death Spin (df4) is used for more than that. It can be used in footsies or to whiff punish a lot of stuff. Not as good as say Demon Dash would be at doing the same thing, but Demon Dash isn’t in a tournament variation. It also is a great anti air. You can use it the instant they jump. You cannot use it to aa if you do it too late though.

It also is hard to punish on block if spaced properly. Some characters cannot even punish it. That means in those MU’s Searing Rage is incredibly strong, imo.
I was messing around with amplified BS. I do not know the exact frame advantage compared to regular BS but if you do not combo the offensive bar is restored almost the same time as BS lasts... So you can perma use it if you want.

Of course if you combo you will have -1 bar and do less damage than with 2 bars so it is a trade off for a better throw...neutral DS... I do not know if it is worth though.

I do not really like using 48 frames in neutral unless full screen as eating a projectile or getting pressuted is not worth lol.

EDIT: Actually it looks like amplified BS is same recovery than normal lol. Prove me wrong.
 
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HapHaxion

"Knowledge" - Taio Cruz
Hey y'all I was wondering: pretty much everyone agrees Scorp is a really good character, but I've also heard it's somewhat easy to react to and block some of the stuff he has. My question is: what MUs do you think people give Scorpion too much credit for, if any?
 
Hey y'all I was wondering: pretty much everyone agrees Scorp is a really good character, but I've also heard it's somewhat easy to react to and block some of the stuff he has. My question is: what MUs do you think people give Scorpion too much credit for, if any?
Do you play Scorpion or want to counter pick Scorpion? :)
I can not answer the question properly though as I have not enough MU experience to decide if it is difficult due to my lack of MU knowledge or it is really difficult (most cases the first lol). Others do I am sure.