Scorpion General Discussion

[M2Dave]

So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

• escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
• forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
• creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
• hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport

Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

• more damage potential because of Burning Spear
• excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents

However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Also Searing Rage has a lot less trouble getting max damage on females.

 

[Lum@na]

So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

• escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
• forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
• creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
• hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport

Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

• more damage potential because of Burning Spear
• excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents

However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?

Agreed. Came to the realization I was playing the worse variation watching scar. Tele cancel is a free turn. The tele vs cancel pressure is disgusting. Scar showed you don't event need to breakaway. Just save d meter for wakeup attacks and tele cancel.

Demon slam is somewhat useful in some MUs, though I wish it were virtually anything else.

 

[BuffRaiden]

I've thought Reborn was significantly better for a while now.

I still don't think he needs any nerfs beyond mb teleport on block. It's just a well designed character.

I main Kabal, but find scorpion really fun to play. I fall into the camp of thinking he's overrated as well and to touch any of his frames on normals or strings seems overkill when his best tool is the teleport cancel mind games.

 

[spidey300]

S

So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

• escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
• forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
• creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
• hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport

Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

• more damage potential because of Burning Spear
• excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents

However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?

Agreed

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

• escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
• forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
• creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
• hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport

Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

• more damage potential because of Burning Spear
• excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents

However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?

Sure. I guess you could add in a cheeky mix-up for Searing Rage between F3 throw or F32 but that's not "real". 2+4 is a gapless followup to 21 but it has no + frames. And, I've found that Death Spin actually works pretty well as an anti-air, hits like half screen away if the opponent is too jump happy.

 

[BuffRaiden]

Wild Idea, but simply strip him of the ability to teleport in the air. Would certainly be nicer to play against, and he'd actually have to play the game, while still enforcing his cancel mind games.

 

[Rostendorf]

Today I Reborn. I got a message that I win only due to the teleport especially the cancel lol.
It was written by a teleport and dive kick spammer after the 2nd match and I did not really use teleport outside combos lol.

By the way it is very easy to get used to the block confirm tele cancel into D4 or any pressure as nobody are prepared (low-mid level playing). That makes a bit disappointing playing Reborn lol.
But of course it brings more adrenalin lol.

With searing rage I was more patient. Now who cares about blocked b14 lol.

Staaaaahp...

 

[Hor_PeT]

So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

• escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
• forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
• creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
• hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport

Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

• more damage potential because of Burning Spear
• excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents

However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?

I agree however in practice if you use your defensive meter recklessly you can be in trouble without wake up and break away.
It is easy to spend it after 2 block strings (for pressure or for escape) and if you are caught you can not defend yourself for a long time (against oki, bnb). So you are given the freedom to use your meter as you want but pay the price in case of punish.
If you use cancel+regular teleport mind game you are not much safer than searing with F32. Both used for making pressure working better (SR for more stagger respect, Reborn to start pressure).
Right now the risk reward factor looks pretty good for Scorpion though (as they do not really challenge cancel and do not punish teleport lol).
I really enjoy crazy timing cancels especially close to death as "who cares para-port" works pretty well. For this reason it is pretty cheap come back factor.
Tele cancel after F3 and B2 is pretty crazy though it makes the cancel so powerful and enhance the footsie tools very much.

On the other hand Searing Rage is the variation which naturally stacks defensive meter for wake up / break away and you take the risk with F32 or death spin (former is more reward on read). With F32 you can force stand block after F3 which opens up opportunities for D3 as well.
And another good use of def meter is to use it for flawless block counter - with SR you might defend more as with Reborn you escape more.

For me Searing Rage looks pretty well rounded and more clean than Reborn - but it does not matter when you see the efficiency of the character.

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

Searing rage make f3 more scare - that is not just stagger, that have 2 followups - f3*4 which you can fl. block, or just stagger f3. If You try to duck without blocking and then immediately fl. block to avoid both variants - that will not work with searing rage and his f32 gapeless overhead. People start to respect your f3 even more, which open them to your easy throws without ducking

 

[Hor_PeT]

Searing rage make f3 more scare - that is not just stagger, that have 2 followups - f3*4 which you can fl. block, or just stagger f3. If You try to duck without blocking and then immediately fl. block to avoid both variants - that will not work with searing rage and his f32 gapeless overhead. People start to respect your f3 even more, which open them to your easy throws without ducking

I tell you the secret: F32 2nd hit is the same frame as F34. It can be flawless blocked and punished too.

However F32xx tele can punish flawless block counter as well (I did not test with Geras' 6F U2 though).

That creates even more mind game.

I labbed that pretty much and found that if you wait for F32/F34 with FB timing you still can tech throw. However you can be punished for it If Scorpion does anything else.

Go to practice room and you will see.

Only the fact that F32 is OH is a good thing as you can expect stand blocking opponent (D3, F4, S2 can work).
If you play safe and always block F32/F34 Scorpion will be plus for more pressure. Not only throw is annoying but all the other options. Opponent will not keep himself being staggered all the time and will press buttons. And that's when you can risk F32 or use F34 (KB). Matter of condition.

I think searing rage can play F3 stagger game a bit better due to F32 but Reborn can play other mind games.

But if you only use cancel for creating space (and being safe) and not offensively it is still strong. With offensive tele you take extra risk against a good opponent (cancel alone is not free pressure).

Online I run into lot of people who does not really care about anything but mash. Or they do not even think about any mind game I mentioned above. Against them everything works but so random lol.

 

[Juggs]

So at Combo Breaker, Killer Xinnok and Scar used Reborn while RZA used Searing Rage. Reborn can be deduced to be superior to Searing Rage for the following reasons.

• escaping corners with canceled d + teleport
• forcing mind games with regular teleport, MB teleport, and canceled d + teleport
• creating space after blocked strings with canceled f + teleport
• hit-confirming single hits (i.e., most practically f+3 and b+2) into EX teleport

Searing Rage, on the other hand, has the following properties.

• more damage potential because of Burning Spear
• excellent round closer with d+4 xx EX Death Spin to chip out opponents

However, Searing Rage is more unsafe because f+3,2 and Death Spin are both in the negative double digits. You surrender safety for a little bit more damage with this variation, which is ultimately not worth the trouble. Death Spin should again be noted as worthy round closer, though.

Does everyone agree?

Death Spin (df4) is used for more than that. It can be used in footsies or to whiff punish a lot of stuff. Not as good as say Demon Dash would be at doing the same thing, but Demon Dash isn’t in a tournament variation. It also is a great anti air. You can use it the instant they jump. You cannot use it to aa if you do it too late though.

It also is hard to punish on block if spaced properly. Some characters cannot even punish it. That means in those MU’s Searing Rage is incredibly strong, imo.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Death Spin (df4) is used for more than that. It can be used in footsies or to whiff punish a lot of stuff. Not as good as say Demon Dash would be at doing the same thing, but Demon Dash isn’t in a tournament variation. It also is a great anti air. You can use it the instant they jump. You cannot use it to aa if you do it too late though.

It also is hard to punish on block if spaced properly. Some characters cannot even punish it. That means in those MU’s Searing Rage is incredibly strong, imo.

I was messing around with amplified BS. I do not know the exact frame advantage compared to regular BS but if you do not combo the offensive bar is restored almost the same time as BS lasts... So you can perma use it if you want.

Of course if you combo you will have -1 bar and do less damage than with 2 bars so it is a trade off for a better throw...neutral DS... I do not know if it is worth though.

I do not really like using 48 frames in neutral unless full screen as eating a projectile or getting pressuted is not worth lol.

EDIT: Actually it looks like amplified BS is same recovery than normal lol. Prove me wrong.

 

[HapHaxion]

Hey y'all I was wondering: pretty much everyone agrees Scorp is a really good character, but I've also heard it's somewhat easy to react to and block some of the stuff he has. My question is: what MUs do you think people give Scorpion too much credit for, if any?

 

[Hor_PeT]

Hey y'all I was wondering: pretty much everyone agrees Scorp is a really good character, but I've also heard it's somewhat easy to react to and block some of the stuff he has. My question is: what MUs do you think people give Scorpion too much credit for, if any?

Do you play Scorpion or want to counter pick Scorpion?
I can not answer the question properly though as I have not enough MU experience to decide if it is difficult due to my lack of MU knowledge or it is really difficult (most cases the first lol). Others do I am sure.

 

[HapHaxion]

Do you play Scorpion or want to counter pick Scorpion?
I can not answer the question properly though as I have not enough MU experience to decide if it is difficult due to my lack of MU knowledge or it is really difficult (most cases the first lol). Others do I am sure.

Asking because I've heard Scorp doesn't really have and bad MUs, but he does have several 5-5s which could be technically considered his worst MUs. Was wondering which characters fit into that barrel; also in addition to which ones other people say is easy for Scorpion, but Scorp players disagree

 

[Hor_PeT]

Hi guys. After watching this

and another video which stressed the strength of the wake up power I re-thought the power of Scorpion restand into teleport (or 21) after amp spear and may use it more accordingly.

Teleport ender is not bad as a 2 bar SR Bnb does around 55-70 damage less (depending on your ender) damage but leaves the opponent +6 at good range for F3/B1/dash up throw mind game and the opponent can not use his wake ups.
With 21 ender after amp spear you are plus for everything too.

My only concern about this is that ok I sacrificed e.g. 60-70 damage for the restand but the best I can get after it is around 140-150 (throw or any other meterless damage). And then he is on knock down too.
Unless I can get him pressing buttons with B1 and loop him back with tele (B14xx tele) but it is 104 damage.

So I am still not convinced that it is worth the effort rather than dealing with the wake up which I can not avoid sooner or later.

Well you can do it with 1 bar too with only amp spear into F32xxtele ender but you get around 100 less damage for it which is evern worse (but you can punish harder if you launch).
But for mixup it is still a good option and can confuse the opponent.

Btw for this purposes I started thinking about picking Cassie Cage too as her restand is god send (no need more resources and closed to optimal damage).
But similar to Scorpion the opponent probably breaks away fast and you mostly face opponents without resources in your next combo = oki&better damage is better.

Fortunately Scorpion can manage rolls & wake up jumps & U2 pretty well with meaty F3 (not F32). It recovers pretty fast against rolls and can punish jumps with F3.

Do you guys use restand?

 

[vegeta]

I'm gonna lab Reborn variant today. Been using searing rage since the start. Do we know which is better? Or are they both just good and useful for certain situations? I'm guessing reborn is based on his TP Cancel "mental" frames or does it all legit mixups? Just curious before I get into this later.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I'm gonna lab Reborn variant today. Been using searing rage since the start. Do we know which is better? Or are they both just good and useful for certain situations? I'm guessing reborn is based on his TP Cancel "mental" frames or does it all legit mixups? Just curious before I get into this later.

Yes it is "mentally plus" lol. As if you wait for blocking the regular tp and comfirm the cancel you are probably late.

It is even not easy to react at all (but against Scorpion you are watching for teleport and should not be a problem maybe in lag) plus watching the cancel.

But if you always use cancel it will be predictable and "easily" punishable so if you wanna use it for offensive mixup you need to use regular teleports too.
If you play with less prepared opponent he will not challenge your cancel and not even punish/block regular teleport: but it is a bit scrubby gameplan lol.

E.g. I was totally unprepared against Reborn and I was beaten hard first 5 matches (b14xx tele cancel pressures, anything other into cancel pressure) but he did not really do regular teleports.
Then I downloaded him and beat the next 5 times and he quited.
It was still difficult to wait him with a full combo punish after tele cancel lol.

I have little experience with Reborn so I rather not talk about it but if you watch RedRaptor's Reborn you will see his true power. Reborn is good.
I prefer SR as it forces me to play with more caution in neutral. With Reborn I feel I am free on everything (and it is pretty true as on my Kasual level they are rarely manage it properly) - and it makes me a bit lazy and I feel unfair - and it is less fun to me. And my footsie play can improve better. Regular teleport still makes it easier - but I do not really like zoning so I rather use a teleport against zoning than doing zoning wars or keep away with zoning.

If you read back few pages somebody collected his comparison too. This thread or other I do not remember.

 

[M2Dave]

Do you guys use restand?

I do.

At Combo Breaker, I saw Killer Xinok re-stand with standing 4 after EX spear. The damage is slightly higher than 2,1 while the hit advantage is only less by one frame.

I agree with you about using meaty f+3. Using b+1,4,3 gets you killed.

Meaty 1,1 is also good. The second hit beats throw tech, uppercut, and jumping and is safe versus rolls.

 

[Juggs]

I do.

At Combo Breaker, I saw Killer Xinok re-stand with standing 4 after EX spear. The damage is slightly higher than 2,1 while the hit advantage is only less by one frame.

I agree with you about using meaty f+3. Using b+1,4,3 gets you killed.

Meaty 1,1 is also good. The second hit beats throw tech, uppercut, and jumping and is safe versus rolls.

Yeah I restand with 4 as well. It has the most damage with one of the highest hit advantages.

Been getting kinda bored of Scorpion though. If you’re playing a good player, it’s hard to open them up in Searing Rage. In Reborn his TP mixups are very good, but it’s really boring not gonna lie. Also in Searing Rage I have to play incredibly patiently with the life lead. It’s not worth the risk to pressure when you don’t need to since his only true mix is f3/f34/f3 throw stuff.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

f3 into d3 is pretty good as Searing Rage. People need to stand up anyways and you can jail with 11 afterwards.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Yeah I restand with 4 as well. It has the most damage with one of the highest hit advantages.

Been getting kinda bored of Scorpion though. If you’re playing a good player, it’s hard to open them up in Searing Rage. In Reborn his TP mixups are very good, but it’s really boring not gonna lie. Also in Searing Rage I have to play incredibly patiently with the life lead. It’s not worth the risk to pressure when you don’t need to since his only true mix is f3/f34/f3 throw stuff.

What does bore you? The neutral play?
Do you like rather mixing up? Yes opening up good people with footsies is not easy and tiring (boring is personal preference).
But most of the characters need play the same. Just maybe they have more tools (projectile, etc.).
Scorpion can be boring though as he has the footsie as mixup and the F3 stagger pressure and a teleport which should be used for rather punishing or on read (searing rage).

Other than that he needs to wait for a mistake from the opponent. Footsie will open uo.
To be honest it is not boring but exhausting to me against a good player.

But good footsies Scorpion should be difficult to be openned up as well.
Other characters might have better mixups and probably unsafe stuff where Scorpion can punish fine.

And Scorpion has good play around F3 as well which can open up people as well not just for a throw.

I just played a long set against Jaqui as my friend picked her up. He is way beginner but she is still a pain to me. Jaqui rushing and I try to play footsies and use my slightly better range. It is not easy.
But I am rather pissed than bored lol.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I do.

At Combo Breaker, I saw Killer Xinok re-stand with standing 4 after EX spear. The damage is slightly higher than 2,1 while the hit advantage is only less by one frame.

I agree with you about using meaty f+3. Using b+1,4,3 gets you killed.

Meaty 1,1 is also good. The second hit beats throw tech, uppercut, and jumping and is safe versus rolls.

I tried today the hellport reset it is not bad either. Because it is just +6 the opponent tends to press buttons after a throw which leads into good mind game.
But I am sure that S4 reset is good as well with the huge hit advantage just the combo damage is less (e.g. 2 bar full combo: 386, hellport reset 320, S4 reset 298).

Against Jaqui I found oki pretty good she has poor wake up attacks. But others have better.

And a standing reset eliminates every factor for that damage price which can be worth it (no need to worry about wake up punishes which can save lot of life and pain).
And can cause more pain for the opponent with constant pressure for that short period.

I may use it more however I feel pretty comfortable in oki yet. I am happy I could open the opponent up and cash out and accept that I may not be able to continue the pressure. I am pleased if the opponent uses def meter for wake up as I can combo them better. But of course I do not like getting full combo punished lol. Therefore nowadays I use safe F3 and will try 11 too.

 

[Juggs]

What does bore you? The neutral play?
Do you like rather mixing up? Yes opening up good people with footsies is not easy and tiring (boring is personal preference).
But most of the characters need play the same. Just maybe they have more tools (projectile, etc.).
Scorpion can be boring though as he has the footsie as mixup and the F3 stagger pressure and a teleport which should be used for rather punishing or on read (searing rage).

Other than that he needs to wait for a mistake from the opponent. Footsie will open uo.
To be honest it is not boring but exhausting to me against a good player.

But good footsies Scorpion should be difficult to be openned up as well.
Other characters might have better mixups and probably unsafe stuff where Scorpion can punish fine.

And Scorpion has good play around F3 as well which can open up people as well not just for a throw.

I just played a long set against Jaqui as my friend picked her up. He is way beginner but she is still a pain to me. Jaqui rushing and I try to play footsies and use my slightly better range. It is not easy.
But I am rather pissed than bored lol.

I destroy most opponents. Which is a good thing. But when I win it’s not satisfying. It’s like, I won yeah, but it’s because Scorpion is annoying as fuck to fight against. I want to play footsies and all that shit that I love. Which is why I main 3 characters now. But the 2 other characters I use are pretty boring too. I feel like I’m winning too easily, or I lose because I don’t know the MU. I learn the MU then it’s back to unsatisfying wins. I want to have fun while I’m winning.

Guess I’ll just keep grinding until the DLC comes out. Very excited for every DLC character actually, especially Nightwolf.