Match-up Discussion RiBBz22's Killer Frost Matchup Chart [Updated: 10/10/13]

[AK cyusstrike]

quote="AK cyusstrike, post: 1108650, member: 1546"]Hey Frost community im going to post my latest tournament performance at our local Atlanta Kombat Arena that happens on Fridays this was this week's installment of our new tournament series I was able to showcase on stream 4 times and ill post my matches for viewing and critiques as well as tips to better my game play. I came in 4th place outta 18 yay me .

cyusstrike vs Ichokeonkush (Batman)

Cyusstrike vs Storm the Gates(Supes/MM)

Cyusstrike vs Reno Racks(Batman)

Cyusstrike vs Ak_Harold (flash) semi Losers
http://www.twitch.tv/atlantakombat/b/450410045 (4:29:01)

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk 4

 

[RiBBz22]

if only KDZ knew how to zone. . .or how to stuff KF's wake-ups. . .or how to react to her vortex

Supes still beats KF. Having a way to stop repeat F23-breath is what Superman wants, it is never a determining factor in his MUs

You don't react to her vortex, you guess. I have yet to see any solid reasons why Superman beats frost outside of the reason that he is Superman. What options does he have that shuts down KF? Superman having to respect parry is a big deal, don't even pretend like this doesn't affect the matchup...

 

[xKhaoTik]

You don't react to her vortex, you guess. I have yet to see any solid reasons why Superman beats frost outside of the reason that he is Superman. What options does he have that shuts down KF? Superman having to respect parry is a big deal, don't even pretend like this doesn't affect the matchup...

Lol he mentioned zoning. I cried.

 

[RiBBz22]

Lol he mentioned zoning. I cried.

Yeah, I don't understand how people can't wrap their heads around the fact that Superman can not zone Killer Frost. KF at full screen is at no risk against Supes. He can hit her with projectiles as she comes in, but due to their recovery it is risky and I will take that risk any day.

 

[Konqrr]

vs Superman - One errant laser and you are in the vortex... one overzealous f2 and you are in the vortex.

 

[LEGEND]

Lol he mentioned zoning. I cried.

way to be a colossal D-bag. I never said zoning dictated the MU i stated that KDZ doesn't now how to zone/how Supe's zoning works. And by how you are brushing it off it appears that you don't either.

(i also mentioned stuffing KF slide with Supes but that tech doesn't appear to be working. 1.04 patch might have changed it, though i don't think it actually otg-ed her. . . my bad on that one i guess, im not sure whats up)

You don't react to her vortex, you guess.

her F3 is 19 frames and has a somewhat noticable animation. A combination of Being comfortable with recognizing the animation and having the reaction speed to deal with it makes her 50/50 reactable. GL's F3 is one frame faster and i can't remember the last time i saw someone get hit by it outside of counter poke set-ups.
-
Parry means about as much as any other character's 7 frame jab except KF takes meter to get any damage (regarding F23-breath).

 

[RiBBz22]

way to be a colossal D-bag. I never said zoning dictated the MU i stated that KDZ doesn't now how to zone/how Supe's zoning works. And by how you are brushing it off it appears that you don't either.

(i also mentioned stuffing KF slide with Supes but that tech doesn't appear to be working. 1.04 patch might have changed it, though i don't think it actually otg-ed her. . . my bad on that one i guess, im not sure whats up)



her F3 is 19 frames and has a somewhat noticable animation. A combination of Being comfortable with recognizing the animation and having the reaction speed to deal with it makes her 50/50 reactable. GL's F3 is one frame faster and i can't remember the last time i saw someone get hit by it outside of counter poke set-ups.
-
Parry means about as much as any other character's 7 frame jab except KF takes meter to get any damage (regarding F23-breath).

I don't agree at all about reacting to the 50 50 but no real point in arguing it. 7 frames meaning you are talking about just frame punishes during pressure. I am fine with using meter to have a 1 frame move that stiffles my opponents most deadly part of his pressure game and most damaging options.

 

[Rickyraws]

DEFINITELY doesnt beat her, at all. His zoning isn't doing anything to her. She has the tools to deal with supes better than most. No way does he beat her.

I would say just like with the rest of the cast vs Superman, messing up/dropping inputs or being in the corner can equate to an entire health bar gone in certain cases. This is what Superman does to the whole cast not just KF, so it isn't so much that he's beating her as it is that when he does open her up, the momentum can sway. People also neglect to realize that the same thing can be done with KF if your opponent guesses wrong in her vortex or if you mix him up. I agree that KF handles Supes very well and I pretty much don't use any other character against a Superman besides the Hunter of Martian Manitty.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

okay so im going to attempt to ask this again without having the "she beats DS for sure" answer and nothing else so here it goes.

what makes this matchup 6-4? i always thought this matchup was even, if anything slightly in DS's favor. it seems to be a test of reactions if anything and if your reactions are on point you got it made. be able to read dashes and react to them throwing icicles as well as blowing her up for jumping. i dont really care that she can punish low guns from anywhere, i just wont do them unless im confident they will hit and use high guns more because they are more the "stop moving" button. however, i am inexperienced in this match and im not sure, so im turning to the KF players to help me understand the matchup more.

 

[RiBBz22]

okay so im going to attempt to ask this again without having the "she beats DS for sure" answer and nothing else so here it goes.

what makes this matchup 6-4? i always thought this matchup was even, if anything slightly in DS's favor. it seems to be a test of reactions if anything and if your reactions are on point you got it made. be able to read dashes and react to them throwing icicles as well as blowing her up for jumping. i dont really care that she can punish low guns from anywhere, i just wont do them unless im confident they will hit and use high guns more because they are more the "stop moving" button. however, i am inexperienced in this match and im not sure, so im turning to the KF players to help me understand the matchup more.

Honestly, punishing low gunshots from anywhere on the screen is a really big deal. A few steps inside of full screen gives KF a MB iceberg-dash-slide punish which will end with pressure on wakeup or a vortex situation. DS has to take a lot of risks after getting knocked down. Sword spin is safe, but can be baited and whiff punished. This same bait can be used to backdash and block + punish sword flip. Basically, after the DS nerfs it made it a ton easier for KF to get in just for the reason alone that DS players have to be careful with low shots. This inherently leads to more slide opportunities during high hitting projectiles.

DS does have some really strong tools in this MU too. Off of a blocked slide his d1 into sword spin is a more reliable option than a lot of the cast has against Frost. And DS's j3 and jump back 3 as a footsie tool is excellent at dealing with slide when KF players are getting too predictable. However, a good Frost can just wait for a jump back and delay their slide to punish and put the opponent in the vortex.

xKhaoTik Konqrr

 

[ApocaLips]

It's worth repeating that without accounting for interactables, this thread doesn't give an accurate portrayal of KF's value as a character as would a matchup chart in another game. Without a doubt, KF's biggest weakness is interactables - she can barely use them and gets mauled by them. It's pretty bad when her best stage isn't one that has interactables useful for her, but merely one where she won't get completely annihilated by them.

A lot of these matchup numbers look totally different on all but a select few stages. They're so different, the current numbers are almost irrelevant.

Ribbz, I understand your aversion to downplaying, but this is just as problematic. This game doesn't play without interactables, and these theoretical vacuum matchups rarely happen. This thread paints an inaccurate portrayal of KF as a result.

 

[xKhaoTik]

What is DS doing to frost? He can't even shoot a bullet without getting punished. So he has to either spend meter to make it safe (even MB assault rifle isn't safe vs frost) or rush me. His rushdown game is legit, especially with his d1, but overall, its nothing frost can't handle. His wake ups get punished hard, blocked or whiffed, so he's taking a gamble with his life everytime he gets up.

Some DS players think this is probably his worst MU. I can't say I agree, but she definitely beats him.

 

[RiBBz22]

It's worth repeating that without accounting for interactables, this thread doesn't give an accurate portrayal of KF's value as a character as would a matchup chart in another game. Without a doubt, KF's biggest weakness is interactables - she can barely use them and gets mauled by them. It's pretty bad when her best stage isn't one that has interactables useful for her, but merely one where she won't get completely annihilated by them.

A lot of these matchup numbers look totally different on all but a select few stages. They're so different, the current numbers are almost irrelevant.

Ribbz, I understand your aversion to downplaying, but this is just as problematic. This game doesn't play without interactables, and these theoretical vacuum matchups rarely happen. This thread paints an inaccurate portrayal of KF as a result.

I have already stated several times why I don't feel interactables and stages are relevant in MU charts.

It is so funny that I was somehow labeled as a huge downplayer just because I mained Smoke in MK9, but I only ever kept it real with his MU's. Now that I am keeping it real with Killer Frost I am somehow labeled as an upplayer....

GGA 16 Bit, I am sure you get a kick out of this

 

[ApocaLips]

It is so funny that I was somehow labeled as a huge downplayer just because I mained Smoke in MK9, but I only ever kept it real with his MU's. Now that I am keeping it real with Killer Frost I am somehow labeled as an upplayer....

GGA 16 Bit, I am sure you get a kick out of this

No, but you clearly made a conscious effort not to downplay. You expressly say that very often.

Not accounting for interactables, which likely are KF's biggest weakness, isn't "keeping it real." It's analyzing a different game than everyone else is playing.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

I know this has been said before, but could you imagine if she was a power character?

I shudder at that thought alone and how that's the only thing keeping her from being a top 3 character.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Killer Frost is stronk, ran a set with a pretty sexy KF player. I main NW, his only chance against her is in staff. She has to be atleast top 10 character.

 

[RiBBz22]

No, but you clearly made a conscious effort not to downplay. You expressly say that very often.

Not accounting for interactables, which likely are KF's biggest weakness, isn't "keeping it real." It's analyzing a different game than everyone else is playing.

KF is a sick character and her only struggles come down to a lack of air control. I don't think interactables are her biggest weakness. The only stage I ever thought was unfair was rooftop before the nerfs. It is our job to punish power characters for using interactables and finding clever ways around them...once you are able to work that into your game it becomes much less of a factor.

 

[ApocaLips]

KF is a sick character and her only struggles come down to a lack of air control. I don't think interactables are her biggest weakness. The only stage I ever thought was unfair was rooftop before the nerfs. It is our job to punish power characters for using interactables and finding clever ways around them...once you are able to work that into your game it becomes much less of a factor.

There's no flat-out punishing a lot of smart interactable use. Yes, rooftop was, and still might be, a horrendous stage for her. But even if the other stages don't shut her down completely (obviously NRS would have caught that), they definitely tilt matchups away from the numbers you're presenting.

Interactables almost universally benefit the opponent in KF's matchups on almost any given stage. I'm not saying that makes her suck. But I'm saying that makes these numbers inaccurate.

 

[RiBBz22]

There's no flat-out punishing a lot of smart interactable use. Yes, rooftop was, and still might be, a horrendous stage for her. But even if the other stages don't shut her down completely (obviously NRS would have caught that), they definitely tilt matchups away from the numbers you're presenting.

Interactables almost universally benefit the opponent in KF's matchups on almost any given stage. I'm not saying that makes her suck. But I'm saying that makes these numbers inaccurate.

You obviously have the right to your opinion, but we definitely disagree. I think a single MU chart comparing character tools is accurate enough, and having an individual chart for each stage in the game across all the characters is totally overkill. I think the effect of interactables against KF is a bit over-exaggerated.

 

[Konqrr]

Power characters do have a definite advantage over KF on stages like rooftop. We all know that she struggles with air control and it is very difficult to stop the interactables with our only options being to dash in and hope to hit them with a j3... but that's impossible to do when half of those interactables hit during their entire flightpath after being thrown. Dashing under them is near impossible as the spash on explosion is too big.

Tracking interactables are a problem unless we are fullscreen and that is the least likely place that they would throw them.

 

[RiBBz22]

Power characters do have a definite advantage over KF on stages like rooftop. We all know that she struggles with air control and it is very difficult to stop the interactables with our only options being to dash in and hope to hit them with a j3... but that's impossible to do when half of those interactables hit during their entire flightpath after being thrown. Dashing under them is near impossible as the spash on explosion is too big.

Tracking interactables are a problem unless we are fullscreen and that is the least likely place that they would throw them.

One thing I did hear through the grapevine is that MB interactables are going to cost 2 bars in the next patch. If that is true I think that would help a bit if we had to absorb them to get a punish.

 

[ApocaLips]

I think a single MU chart comparing character tools is accurate enough, and having an individual chart for each stage in the game across all the characters is totally overkill.

My suggestion is a bit more workable than a chart for every stage. I would just generate numbers for her best and worst stage and express matchups as a range rather than a single value. Most of the work is already done for that - my guess is that your current numbers are for batcave, which means you only have to reevaluate for rooftop.

For example, if you think Aquaman is a 6-4 in batcave and 4-6, you can list that matchup as a range of 4-6 to 6-4.

You can also include a rough average accounting for the entire set of stages. Think outside the box.

I think the effect of interactables against KF is a bit over-exaggerated.

(1) Even if you think thats true in all matchups, it still makes the chart misleading and inapplicable to the game as it is actually played.

(2) This probably isn't true. Consider the following:

(a) Interactables are considered a significant component of Injustice matches.
(b) KF is towards the bottom for both characters who can effectively use interactables offensively and characters who can defend against them.

Your assertion that interactables don't significantly affect KF's matchups is inconsistent with the combination of these assertions - if interactables are significant to Injustice matches and KF gets about as raw of a deal as anyone, then they must noticeably affect her matchups.

If you want to argue against either of these widely accepted assertions, best of luck to you. Both theory and anecdotal evidence are heavily against you.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Killer Frost is stronk, ran a set with a pretty sexy KF player. I main NW, his only chance against her is in staff. She has to be atleast top 10 character.

No

 

[RM Jonnitti]

What is DS doing to frost? He can't even shoot a bullet without getting punished. So he has to either spend meter to make it safe (even MB assault rifle isn't safe vs frost) or rush me. His rushdown game is legit, especially with his d1, but overall, its nothing frost can't handle. His wake ups get punished hard, blocked or whiffed, so he's taking a gamble with his life everytime he gets up.

Some DS players think this is probably his worst MU. I can't say I agree, but she definitely beats him.

Honestly, punishing low gunshots from anywhere on the screen is a really big deal. A few steps inside of full screen gives KF a MB iceberg-dash-slide punish which will end with pressure on wakeup or a vortex situation. DS has to take a lot of risks after getting knocked down. Sword spin is safe, but can be baited and whiff punished. This same bait can be used to backdash and block + punish sword flip. Basically, after the DS nerfs it made it a ton easier for KF to get in just for the reason alone that DS players have to be careful with low shots. This inherently leads to more slide opportunities during high hitting projectiles.

DS does have some really strong tools in this MU too. Off of a blocked slide his d1 into sword spin is a more reliable option than a lot of the cast has against Frost. And DS's j3 and jump back 3 as a footsie tool is excellent at dealing with slide when KF players are getting too predictable. However, a good Frost can just wait for a jump back and delay their slide to punish and put the opponent in the vortex.

xKhaoTik Konqrr

the way i see it. damage output is relatively similar, and the fuck does killer frost have to wake up with other than slide which makes it easy to jump in on her without having to worry about much other than slide whiffing and shes back at full screen. i like using the ji1 setup after a juggled 123 and mix it up with jb1 if i think they will slide. the swordspin could be baited argument is kinda stupid, because in any fighting game in the history of mankind, wakeups can be baited and punished, whether you block them or make them whiff. i just dont understand why that is an actual argument. as for low shots, i only use them to go under icicles. i use stand shots more when i read dashes and air guns when shes in the air of course. guns in general i dont really use guns much unless she gets reckless. all of her zoning tools can be punished by me as well, sure not as much damage but whatever. DS also has much better control of space in the air with his air normals and air guns. DS also has the interactable advantage on some stages, where as killer frost is very weak with interactables and can't do much with them. i kinda see this match at 5-5 on most stages and 6-4 DS on watchtower, strykers island, ferris aircraft and themyscira.

 

[xKhaoTik]

KF beats DS.