Match-up Discussion RiBBz22's Killer Frost Matchup Chart [Updated: 10/10/13]

[BBNik]

Yeah, but the entire cast doesn't have punishes that put you into a 50-50 guessing game so 1 slip up could potentially be a huge deal. Then after that the HG may not have a life lead and will not be able to simply lame out KF. HG has a lot of good options in the air against KF, but KF is able to get around pretty much any of them on a good read with proper spacing. I think the one thing that could make this a definitive 4-6 MU would be if HG's downward mace toss hit KF full screen.

Well you know, Something hawkgirl could do is use flight to go down close to the ground. There's a point where if you mace toss it horizontally, it will hit KF if she's standing. You're also high enough that her spikes can't reach you from under. But of course a good KF can get through it with reads and such. So wouldn't the matchup be entirely based off of KF's skill?

HG is very annoying and its annoying MU, but that's it. Its just annoying.


Its extremely patient and life lead based IMO. KF gets the lead, HG has to come to her. And vise versa. KF's j3 is pretty good and hit HG out of her trait, and gets a slide after which ends with the BS.

HG definitely controls the flow of the MU, so KF has to play her game. But if she knows how to be patient, bait the wakeups, and punish her stuff accordingly, KF won't be losing that much to HG.

So wouldn't the matchup be entirely based off of KF's skill to read and bait HG?


Anyway I won't argue anymore, this is your personal opinion and I don't have much matchup experience against KF. All my thoughts were based on what I expected. It was good to hear what a KF player thought of the matchup.

 

[Doombawkz]

I think against predictable Frost's that use slide too much in this MU could make things easier for Bane with all of his armor added with his venom buffs. After the Patch she can no longer KO him from a level 3 de-buff with one right guess off her 50-50 after a punish so that is sad to lose . A lot of Bane's options to get in are really easily punished even without the ability to parry the charge anymore. When I play this MU I feel like I can run away and do whatever I want to do. It is easy for her to get away from him when he is at his most dangerous and get right back in when he is at his most vulnerable.

Why do you think it is only 4-6 or 5-5? Good Frost's are not going to be sliding into his armor traps the entire match.

For one, her mobility is ok, but not great. I don't base my opinions on the assumption you'll constantly be sliding, but on the fact that after losing parry you no longer have a safe wake-up option. That and while you may be able to "parry our DP etc etc" most of our attacks are more based around the use of d.1 into them and our other low starters. You have the advantage of frozen daggers, and you do a decent amount of damage. However, you have to remember all of your vortex starters are not grab immune. After that j.2 2 starter we don't have to guess, we can input body press and sink any of the options on the ground for the most part (I think the low and sword might clip it out beforehand but at the close range I'm not entirely sure because the speed of the move seems to be based on a touch-box type deal). Our dash covers about half the screen and can be cancelled into our specials and all, so our best options to get in are pretty much just dashblocking (since your daggers don't hit crouching) and then cancelling it into BP, DP, or charge once we get in (BP serving as the OS since it also catches backdashes)

If you can keep away, yeah sure you guys can win it out. However, once you get knocked down it takes a lot more than just a "oh I better do something" to get back up. Our 7-3s are people like Nightwing who can literally sit back and throw non-projectile wing-dings at us, Lex who can blow up our entire game using mines and junk, and (debatably) Superman who is Superman. In comparison to those, KF doesn't feel like a 3-7, and I think most Banes agree. KF is annoying to fight, but not per se someone that we are like "Dang we can't do anything" like our other MUs. This isn't to say Bane beats out a lot of people or breaks 5-5, but theres "6-4 debatably 3-7" and then theres just "6-4". Its the latter, at least to us. I can't imagine why you guys all think its so lopsided, but it seems a lot of the numbers are a bit... questionable. Honestly I'll take another 3-7 for the sake of more buffs next patch, but I honestly don't feel like this is one of them.

Oh, we don't expect you to slide into our armor traps. However, we do expect you to fall into a lot of them since we can blockstring into each one. Theres not much you can block safely since it could be either a command grab or a full combo. Just b.23 alone is probably the best example, do you block expecting the 3 or jump expecting the command grab? We get 50/50s off of every string just about

 

[RiBBz22]

Well you know, Something hawkgirl could do is use flight to go down close to the ground. There's a point where if you mace toss it horizontally, it will hit KF if she's standing. You're also high enough that her spikes can't reach you from under. But of course a good KF can get through it with reads and such. So wouldn't the matchup be entirely based off of KF's skill?




So wouldn't the matchup be entirely based off of KF's skill to read and bait HG?


Anyway I won't argue anymore, this is your personal opinion and I don't have much matchup experience against KF. All my thoughts were based on what I expected. It was good to hear what a KF player thought of the matchup.

If KF sees HG adjusting her flight to use horizontal mace toss then she can preemptively punish with daggers which will hit HG at that height into an iceberg punish.

 

[BBNik]

If KF sees HG adjusting her flight to use horizontal mace toss then she can preemptively punish with daggers which will hit HG at that height into an iceberg punish.

Fair point.

 

[RiBBz22]

For one, her mobility is ok, but not great. I don't base my opinions on the assumption you'll constantly be sliding, but on the fact that after losing parry you no longer have a safe wake-up option. That and while you may be able to "parry our DP etc etc" most of our attacks are more based around the use of d.1 into them and our other low starters. You have the advantage of frozen daggers, and you do a decent amount of damage. However, you have to remember all of your vortex starters are not grab immune. After that j.2 2 starter we don't have to guess, we can input body press and sink any of the options on the ground for the most part (I think the low and sword might clip it out beforehand but at the close range I'm not entirely sure because the speed of the move seems to be based on a touch-box type deal). Our dash covers about half the screen and can be cancelled into our specials and all, so our best options to get in are pretty much just dashblocking (since your daggers don't hit crouching) and then cancelling it into BP, DP, or charge once we get in (BP serving as the OS since it also catches backdashes)

If you can keep away, yeah sure you guys can win it out. However, once you get knocked down it takes a lot more than just a "oh I better do something" to get back up. Our 7-3s are people like Nightwing who can literally sit back and throw non-projectile wing-dings at us, Lex who can blow up our entire game using mines and junk, and (debatably) Superman who is Superman. In comparison to those, KF doesn't feel like a 3-7, and I think most Banes agree. KF is annoying to fight, but not per se someone that we are like "Dang we can't do anything" like our other MUs. This isn't to say Bane beats out a lot of people or breaks 5-5, but theres "6-4 debatably 3-7" and then theres just "6-4". Its the latter, at least to us. I can't imagine why you guys all think its so lopsided, but it seems a lot of the numbers are a bit... questionable. Honestly I'll take another 3-7 for the sake of more buffs next patch, but I honestly don't feel like this is one of them.

Oh, we don't expect you to slide into our armor traps. However, we do expect you to fall into a lot of them since we can blockstring into each one. Theres not much you can block safely since it could be either a command grab or a full combo. Just b.23 alone is probably the best example, do you block expecting the 3 or jump expecting the command grab? We get 50/50s off of every string just about

I almost had a grown man in tears at UFGT

 

[Doombawkz]

I almost had a grown man in tears at UFGT

Unless it was Grr, Mustard, Chief, Preon, or Max, then I think you might've just had a very sensitive Baby-Bane.

 

[Prinz]

RiBBz22 where's vs Kabal? Did you chicken out?

 

[RiBBz22]

RiBBz22 where's vs Kabal? Did you chicken out?

 

[Prinz]

The general can not save you. 0-10 brah.

 

[Goldi]

Good list <3 I'm looking through it going "but X mops me!" though lol. Mix of little match up experience and the damn stage interactables.

Do you think the stage heavily influences a match up or do I just have some more to learn about them? I feel like some matches she should win become a death sentence against the power characters in the right place.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Yeah...just don't agree with HG MU being 5-5. A character who can dominate the air game whilst staying IN the air is somehow even against Frost? Lol, oh honey, no.

I used to think Bane was shit until I started playing a few scary Bane's with excellent venom management...perhaps 6-4 KF?

 

[Mr Aquaman]

Ares KF is 4-6 IMO, the vortex is just a vortex if blocked wrong that should not sway MU numbers, i felt the same with scorpion, vortex characters can 10-0 anyone in theory. I love this MU. His projectiles are not punishable on block, Ares out damages her, she should fear d1 as much as im fearing slide. Mid range b1 can be abusive from ares, stuffing slide and virutally any normal. Khaotik and I have played this a few times and it doesnt feel that she rapes him, player pending skill level pending of course. That being said both me and him are free so god truly knows. I downplay ares into the ground in hopes to get him buffed, but when played right ares is not as bad as people think. Takes alot of calculated risk, payoff is a win. Downside, not too bad cause most people dont know how to punish his shennanigans. I'd like to play this MU more, MrAquaman on psn. Ill be streaming tonight hopefully.

 

[Konqrr]

With Bane's forward dash being ridiculous now and less downtime on his trait usage and no more parry of his charge, I think that Bane is 6-4 KF only. Dat trait armor is scary.

I don't have enough experience in the HG matchup to say anything except the only ones I've played were online and I have never taken even one lifebar down... but I've only fought like 4 of them so lol

 

[Mr Aquaman]

Good list <3 I'm looking through it going "but X mops me!" though lol. Mix of little match up experience and the damn stage interactables.

Do you think the stage heavily influences a match up or do I just have some more to learn about them? I feel like some matches she should win become a death sentence against the power characters in the right place.

You should have seen the look on khaotiks face when I picked metropolis on him ;]

 

[RiBBz22]

Good list <3 I'm looking through it going "but X mops me!" though lol. Mix of little match up experience and the damn stage interactables.

Do you think the stage heavily influences a match up or do I just have some more to learn about them? I feel like some matches she should win become a death sentence against the power characters in the right place.

Yeah, unfortunately for Frost she get's the pleasure of being in the poop tier of interactable classes so this is a problem that we all have to get around. Personally, I tend to stay away from stages that favor power characters because it is easy to give up a lot of cheap damage. Even after Metropolis Rooftop was nerfed, it is still likely her worst stage since you can't get rid of the floating drones as they keep coming back. Frost players need to be picking Batcave Crime Lab every time when they are playing non-casual matches. This is her best stage without a doubt which is very limited in terms of interactables. I think Atlantis is good for her as well, since you just really have to worry about the globe interactable.

Obviously it is inevitable that you are going to end up on a crappy stage, so it is important to understand that you will be using some of your meter in those matches to armor through and punish. Konqrr has an awesome video tutorial that I have stickied on the main KF page. Since meter is at more of a premium here, a lot of the time when I punish I will end in U3 and go into her meterless vortex.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-punish-stage-interactables.31206/

Yeah...just don't agree with HG MU being 5-5. A character who can dominate the air game whilst staying IN the air is somehow even against Frost? Lol, oh honey, no.

I used to think Bane was shit until I started playing a few scary Bane's with excellent venom management...perhaps 6-4 KF?

I don't ever expect us to agree on anything

It is definitely a weird MU since she is a weird character. I have fun playing it though.

Ares KF is 4-6 IMO, the vortex is just a vortex if blocked wrong that should not sway MU numbers, i felt the same with scorpion, vortex characters can 10-0 anyone in theory. I love this MU. His projectiles are not punishable on block, Ares out damages her, she should fear d1 as much as im fearing slide. Mid range b1 can be abusive from ares, stuffing slide and virutally any normal. Khaotik and I have played this a few times and it doesnt feel that she rapes him, player pending skill level pending of course. That being said both me and him are free so god truly knows. I downplay ares into the ground in hopes to get him buffed, but when played right ares is not as bad as people think. Takes alot of calculated risk, payoff is a win. Downside, not too bad cause most people dont know how to punish his shennanigans. I'd like to play this MU more, MrAquaman on psn. Ill be streaming tonight hopefully.

Yeah, his d1 is really good in this MU. Very very good. I will probably end up changing this one to 6-4 actually. The one thing that I think is really annoying is that his axe has a rotating hitbox so sometimes you can slide it and sometimes it will hit you depending on where the head of the axe is in its rotation...It is like playing the lottery. Add RiBBz22 and we will definitely play sometime!

 

[Briggs8417]

I'm seeing way too many 7-3's, not just on this chart but on MU charts in general. I don't see very many MU's in this game being that lopsided. There are more than there should be, but they will probably be adjusted come next patch. Other than that seems about right to me.

 

[RiBBz22]

I'm seeing way too many 7-3's, not just on this chart but on MU charts in general. I don't see very many MU's in this game being that lopsided. There are more than there should be, but they will probably be adjusted come next patch. Other than that seems about right to me.

I hear ya, but I don't think the game has a lot of 7-3's in general. I just think KF's design gives a lot of other characters issues and I think the issues are profound enough to call the MU's worse than 6-4 IMO. Just a general thought though.

 

[Chongo]

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about the nw mu.

 

[Briggs8417]

I hear ya, but I don't think the game has a lot of 7-3's in general. I just think KF's design gives a lot of other characters issues and I think the issues are profound enough to call the MU's worse than 6-4 IMO. Just a general thought though.

I completely understand where you are coming from and honestly most of these that you have I can't argue with you on them. the only ones I would dispute are Raven, Shazam and MAAAAAAYYYBEE Lobo (but prolly not Lobo). Aside from those I would understand why you have 7-3's.

 

[RiBBz22]

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about the nw mu.

My thoughts are that we need to play a lot more and I will record some sets. I played Guamo a fair share when the game first dropped, but this is a MU I don't have enough experience in at the moment. NW is an awesome character and this MU is fun to play. His air projectile and staff pound frame traps are very good at keeping Frost out and she struggles with staff stance in general.

Frost definitely out-damages Nightwing and it is hard for him to keep continued pressure on her because of her wakeup game. Slide is excellent here, and MB punishes can be avoided by parry for a full combo. Even though staff pound is really good, if you are spaced right you can use it to your advantage to get some cheap jump-in's.

I didn't change my MU number from my previous chart which was 6-4. I definitely think she had the advantage for sure when she had the ability to get 50-50's off block pressure due to trait cancel. Being in the corner against Frost then was pretty much death. Now the MU plays a little harder, but I want to play more good NW's to level up with the MU in the game's current state.

What do you think about it?

I completely understand where you are coming from and honestly most of these that you have I can't argue with you on them. the only ones I would dispute are Raven, Shazam and MAAAAAAYYYBEE Lobo (but prolly not Lobo). Aside from those I would understand why you have 7-3's.

Yeah, I can't defend my Lobo number. I just played Frothy when the character dropped for a long set and the advantage felt painfully bad at the time. I pretty much felt like I could run away, do whatever I want, and whiff punish mistakes. I am down to play any good Lobo's for sure that want to and I can record.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Yeah, I want to play AK Pig Of The Hut a bunch and general m2dave if he ever comes to play offline with us.

I keep sending invites

I believe 6-4 ZOD

Also I'd like to play your MMH a ton too

 

[RiBBz22]

I keep sending invites

I believe 6-4 ZOD

Also I'd like to play your MMH a ton too

I saw yours last night but I was just about to go to sleep. Sorry about that. MMH execution is terrible online and it really screws up my offline timing more than any other character so I doubt I am gonna play him online very much. I was playing P2W last night and that character is SO much fun though. Yeah I don't have much Zod exp so that one along with the other recent DLC is huge subject to change.

 

[RunwayMafia]

No.

Yes.

 

[RiBBz22]

Yes.

hard to argue both of these

 

[RunwayMafia]

kf cant do much against hg. granted hg still needs to be careful but her pressure shuts down most of kfs options

Yes exactly. I love Khaotik's KF but he is delusional if he thinks it's an even MU. Again, we are all throwing out mere opinions here, but the KF vs HG MU is pretty lopsided, IMO.