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Match-up Discussion RiBBz22's Killer Frost Matchup Chart [Updated: 10/10/13]

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Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
My thoughts thus far:
Cyborg is still pretty much the same. My lack of knowledge in this match up embarrassingly caused me to come to the realization that both of his nova blasts are NOT overhead. Never really lost to Cyborgs enough to give me a reason to take him into the lab. Note: as with many characters now, be weary of throwing out daggers when they're within footsie range. DD can utilize his new armor, Cyborg hits harder, and many tournament videos of Frost vs GA show that doing so while forgetting about the range of his J3 is not a good idea.

Doomsday is still pretty much the same. If your opponent doesn't give you an opportunity to parry their moves by either grabbing or sweeping, feel free to liberally use MBF3 as the damage pay off is worth the risk. Side note: no one seems to ever punish sweeps in this game. Don't be a statistic; punish sweeps.

Shazam is the same. In fact as some may now start to utilize the mighty charge combo, note that you can full combo punish them in a variety of ways on whiff. No real reason to ever block low in the MU. The range boost on psycho crusher is irrelevant when daggers knock him out of the air.

Superman: lol

Batman- whiff punish b23 with iceberg every now and then. Otherwise the same.

Green Arrow: Due to scheduling conflicts, and Green Arrow players ducking me, this MU is inconclusive.

Killer Frost mirror:


Zod: lol you're not getting that trait out (iceberg on reaction whenever at full screen. Doing so on block gives him a free TA)
To be honest, I never really face Zods so I'm gonna do the smart thing and leave this MU as 6-4 Frost until further notice ;)

Flash: I dunno, I tend to do very well against Flash. Since he received no buffs I'd suspect if that was the case it will remain so now. Right next to him, if you know he's wake up heavy, you can duck and prepare to uppercut just about all of his specials. BOTH LC can be punished with b1, however treat it like Adam's dive kick and don't worry about what he does animation wise after he hits you- as soon as he makes contact, punish. MBF3 through his b22, d1d2 shenanigans. Don't jump around like a manic because he'll usually win the air to air and can punish with a combo. D1D2D3 is punishable by 111. You can parry LC, but note that when you parry from max range his property changes. Usually you can 111 and he'll be standing. At max range a parry punish has his property as still in the air. Take this into consideration. You can back dash some of his pressure. Iceberg will catch RMS.



Black Adam: While not entirely free, it's definitely easier.

Other than that I haven't really played the MUs I've wanted to test out. Considering the lack of time with the aforementioned as well I'd say others should chime in with whatever they've ascertained so we can get a better understanding of what's what.

Side note, while Batcave is considered 'Frost's stage' be weary of selecting it against a good Green Arrow player. This should be self explanatory, but I can explicate otherwise.
 

ApocaLips

Kombatant
Hawkgirl match up won't change as Hawkgirl only got a fix, no buffs or other notable changes .
Not necessarily. There are general system changes here that benefit KF. Power character interactable nerfs, and us loving to use MB f3 to stuff hawkgirl's wakeups.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Not necessarily. There are general system changes here that benefit KF. Power character interactable nerfs, and us loving to use MB f3 to stuff hawkgirl's wakeups.

This also goes for blowing up Killer Frost's slide on wake up too since it was a universal buff to MB forward/back 3. I also can't really comment on interactables being that big of a deal because I don't really rely on them and most of my Killer Frost experience comes from Ribbz and we usually play on Batcave lol.

I agree interactables nerfs help her a ton. I still think it will be 5-5 though.
 

ApocaLips

Kombatant
This also goes for blowing up Killer Frost's slide on wake up too since it was a universal buff to MB forward/back 3. I also can't really comment on interactables being that big of a deal because I don't really rely on them and most of my Killer Frost experience comes from Ribbz and we usually play on Batcave lol.

I agree interactables nerfs help her a ton. I still think it will be 5-5 though.
I don't have a lot of HG experience, but why would you wakeup slide against her? I don't see a reason to do that offhand.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
This also goes for blowing up Killer Frost's slide on wake up too since it was a universal buff to MB forward/back 3. I also can't really comment on interactables being that big of a deal because I don't really rely on them and most of my Killer Frost experience comes from Ribbz and we usually play on Batcave lol.

I agree interactables nerfs help her a ton. I still think it will be 5-5 though.
Yeah I agree it will stay 5-5. HG will always be an annoying match for Frost just because of the way it forces her to play. Just don't get hit!
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
The write up by ApocaLips about BA is COMPLETELY wrong.

You can't react to black magic. It's humanly impossible. 22F startup with a hitbox designed to catch jumps, add in you watching BA moving his hands in any way waiting to jump like a spastic along with pre jump frames and you're dead. It also can't be punished on whiff unless you jump way too prematurely.

Lightning can be jumped on reaction but not punished in any way. Divekick is still safe when done properly vs 2-3 characters, KF is one of them, not to mention no BA will ever do more than 1 divekick per round if it's not MB.

And how the hell can he not outzone her? Black Magic was greatly buffed, Lightning is the exact same with only one change, he can no longer check you with a MB divekick if you were foolish enough to think you could dash forward.

5-5 MU, the only true change to BA was that it's harder to simply run away.

Joker is even as well, possible 6-4 KF in the future.
 

ApocaLips

Kombatant
The write up by ApocaLips about BA is COMPLETELY wrong.

You can't react to black magic. It's humanly impossible. 22F startup with a hitbox designed to catch jumps, add in you watching BA moving his hands in any way waiting to jump like a spastic along with pre jump frames and you're dead. It also can't be punished on whiff unless you jump way too prematurely.
I don't know what the hell you think I meant, but I was saying you can punish black magic on reaction with iceberg. You have the entire startup and animation to react and 7 frames of leniency in the recovery, so it's gonna happen consistently. One wrong BM call from anywhere but the very edge of the screen means it's vortex time.

Lightning can be jumped on reaction but not punished in any way.
The black Adam MU is the exact same thing. The only difference is the fact that she can punish his lightning now on reaction. That'sactually huge, but other than that, it still feels the same.
MB Lightning - You can jump forward on reaction and land safely then punish with MB Iceberg for full combo
This is my source for that info, take it up with them.

Divekick is still safe when done properly vs 2-3 characters, KF is one of them, not to mention no BA will ever do more than 1 divekick per round if it's not MB.
I never said it can be punished. I said you have to guess at a 50/50 now that divekick to backdash doesn't work so well. That's a very big difference from the previous version of the matchup.

Stopping Adam from divekicking altogether is just as good.

And how the hell can he not outzone her? Black Magic was greatly buffed, Lightning is the exact same with only one change, he can no longer check you with a MB divekick if you were foolish enough to think you could dash forward.
Because according to what I just quoted from Khaotik, BA's zoning is now ineffectual.

Lightning - jump forward on reaction apparently. If you disagree with that, take it up with Khaotik and Konqrr.
Otherwise block/chuck daggers. If BA black magics, iceberg punish.

Looks like there's no more need to try to move in on BA unless KF is seriously behind on life. Even if regular lightning isn't punishable, every use of this bread and butter tool is a free jump forward for KF now. Not to mention daggers trades favorably with it.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I don't know what the hell you think I meant, but I was saying you can punish black magic on reaction with iceberg. You have the entire startup and animation to react and 7 frames of leniency in the recovery, so it's gonna happen consistently. One wrong BM call from anywhere but the very edge of the screen means it's vortex time.





This is my source for that info, take it up with him.



I never said it can be punished. I said you have to guess at a 50/50 now that divekick to backdash doesn't work so well. That's a very big difference from the previous version of the matchup.

Stopping Adam from divekicking altogether is just as good.



Because according to what I just quoted from Khaotik, BA's zoning is now ineffectual.

Lightning - jump forward on reaction apparently. If you disagree with that, take it up with Khaotik.
Otherwise block/chuck daggers. If BA black magics, iceberg punish.

Looks like there's no more need to try to move in on BA unless KF is seriously behind on life.
Agreed on BM then. Are you sure it's doable fullscreen?

Normal divekick will still not be used much over MB one, you could do a 50/50 to punish him for backdashing even prepatch.

MB lightning is the only thing that can be punished with iceberg if it's jumped, no BA will ever throw it out unless you whiff something or are in an animation that forces you to block it.
 

ApocaLips

Kombatant
Agreed on BM then. Are you sure it's doable fullscreen?
Not sure what you mean, the BM punish? Distance doesn't matter for landing the iceberg, it's only relevant to whether you can slide after a MB iceberg.

MB lightning is the only thing that can be punished with iceberg if it's jumped, no BA will ever throw it out unless you whiff something or are in an animation that forces you to block it.
This is a big change because before, you couldn't jump it, and it was BA's primary tool for recovering the life lead by doing a ton of chip and recovering decent meter in the process. Since KF couldn't MB her daggers in the same way, she lost the zoning war due to that move. Now it's a nonissue - even if BA never uses it in the zoning war, it's a huge win for her.

I'll do more testing for myself when I get some room to breathe this week.
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
Agreed on BM then. Are you sure it's doable fullscreen?

Normal divekick will still not be used much over MB one, you could do a 50/50 to punish him for backdashing even prepatch.

MB lightning is the only thing that can be punished with iceberg if it's jumped, no BA will ever throw it out unless you whiff something or are in an animation that forces you to block it.
Black magic was punishable before patch. It is after.
MB lightning can be punished on reaction in a couple different ways. Users posted how here, and can be easily tested. Doing so can reveal that is CAN be punished 'in any way'.

It was mentioned that her range still doesn't catch the DK, but it's a height dependent move: this means using the right means it can be punished. Irrelevant if the BA MB's but then again, it ain't nothing a MB B3 can't handle. Yes, on reaction. Do the close boot stomp to attempt to fake your opponents out.

Nothing was inherently referenced to say that she automatically bops him for free now. In fact more or less the consensus is that he's about this same with lesser tools to run away. Hell, even at the break, the new properties of MB lightning were discussed by the commentators with regards to how it now gives them ease and options in doing certain things. Rico was there, and while you may or may not concede to him being one of the best Black Adam players, surely you will not dismiss his input that corroborates their claims, no?

Qwark; Y u do dis?
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Also, I don't understand what's going on here about BA.

I had no idea BM could be jumped, can it? Either way, why jump it? Its punishable anywhere on the screen.

Lightning and MB lightning can be jumped. I'm pretty sure iaDash would recover fast enough to punish lightning with spike or even a jump attack, but I KNOW it works against mb lightning .

DK is still annoying. I had my hopes up thinking she can punish it now, but its still height dependent. She always had the 50/50 setup after a blocked DK so nothing hasreally changed here.

The zoning is pretty much not a problem now. Lightnings aren't a problem and BM gets punished anywhere. She can actually sit on a life lead now.

The MU is kinda still the same tho. Nothing changed really about his upclose game or his wakeup, and his core game play wasn't touched.

EDIT: I just went into training and regular lightning can be jumped and punished anywhere on the screen. No iadash is needed.

EDIT 2: from full screen, she can iadash a lightning and land fast enough to punish with slide
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Also, I don't understand what's going on here about BA.

I had no idea BM could be jumped, can it? Either way, why jump it? Its punishable anywhere on the screen.

Lightning and MB lightning can be jumped. I'm pretty sure iaDash would recover fast enough to punish lightning with spike or even a jump attack, but I KNOW it works against mb lightning .

DK is still annoying. I had my hopes up thinking she can punish it now, but its still height dependent. She always had the 50/50 setup after a blocked DK so nothing hasreally changed here.

The zoning is pretty much not a problem now. Lightnings aren't a problem and BM gets punished anywhere. She can actually sit on a life lead now.

The MU is kinda still the same tho. Nothing changed really about his upclose game or his wakeup, and his core game play wasn't touched.
Yeah, the way his zoning works now kind of reminds me of how Superman's zoning works in the KF matchup where he can't really hurt you full screen and lock you down anymore. Much less annoying.
 

ApocaLips

Kombatant
In my view, what made the BA problematic pre-patch was his ability to run away nearly indefinitely and continue chip pressure while sitting on a life lead. Due to what I said above, he absolutely can't do that now - in fact it looks like KF wins at full screen.

BA retained all his great close-up stuff except backdash shenanigans - but KF always fared well against that. It's mostly frametrap based with only mids/overheads and the occasional j2. KF's parry neutralizes that threat better than anyone else.

Without the ability to win at distance, Black Adam needs to go in and take risks to do it. It's the exact same problem KF had with BA pre-patch, but in reverse. Except she also beats him up close.

With the problematic portion of the matchup now falling squarely in KF's favor, I can't see how this isn't favorable to KF.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Let me make something clear

MB lightning is indeed punishable, very easily so

BM should not be jumped on direction, I misread Apocalipses post.

Regular lightning will not be punished. Training mode, on a read and in a real game are completely different things, BAs zoning should only be zoned vs when your opp whiffs something or you make a read. Hope that clears things up.

Will explain why Joker is even soon.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Let me make something clear

MB lightning is indeed punishable, very easily so

BM should not be jumped on direction, I misread Apocalipses post.

Regular lightning will not be punished. Training mode, on a read and in a real game are completely different things, BAs zoning should only be zoned vs when your opp whiffs something or you make a read. Hope that clears things up.

Will explain why Joker is even soon.


I'm jumping regular lightning on reaction and punishing with spike ONLINE lol. Its possible man
 
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