Relaxed's Cyborg MU Chart

[Relaxedstate]

lol im sorry i did this to you guys

You ruined the community! (which is like 3 people).
lol nah jk your MMH is hands down the best I have ever played, you should feel good. I really hope you can make it out to a tournament soon. NEC?

 

[Rebelo]

You ruined the community! (which is like 3 people).
lol nah jk your MMH is hands down the best I have ever played, you should feel good. I really hope you can make it out to a tournament soon. NEC?

im off probation in the new year so ill make a trip down there soon

 

[xInfra Deadx]

You ruined the community! (which is like 3 people).
lol nah jk your MMH is hands down the best I have ever played, you should feel good. I really hope you can make it out to a tournament soon. NEC?

I'm also apologizing ahead of time I feel like i'm getting away with murder here...

 

[Relaxedstate]

Updated to reflect pre-NEC. Some notes: Bat-girl now bad, Scorpion now bad. Raven now really bad. MMH = free. Ares is now less bad.

 

[Espio]

Updated to reflect pre-NEC. Some notes: Bat-girl now bad, Scorpion now bad. Raven now really bad. MMH = free. Ares is now less bad.

It really bugs me how polarized this character is overall with his match ups . As great as he is at zoning, it would have been nice to have more in terms of strings and up close game to offset those matches where you cannot zone at all...the problem with him or at least what I'm thinking (correct me if I'm wrong) is that once you take away his zoning game he has fairly little to fall back on making him more one dimensional than he should be overall.


We should play soon if you're ever on PSN at some point. Hawkgirl versus Cyborg is a lot of fun and not a garbage match up like MMH or Sinestro lol. I wouldn't mind learning the Zod versus Cyborg match up either as I'm curious on that one.

Edit: Also, what are the asterisks for by the numbers?

 

[Relaxedstate]

It really bugs me how polarized this character is overall with his match ups . As great as he is at zoning, it would have been nice to have more in terms of strings and up close game to offset those matches where you cannot zone at all...the problem with him or at least what I'm thinking (correct me if I'm wrong) is that once you take away his zoning game he has fairly little to fall back on making him more one dimensional than he should be overall.


We should play soon if you're ever on PSN at some point. Hawkgirl versus Cyborg is a lot of fun and not a garbage match up like MMH or Sinestro lol. I wouldn't mind learning the Zod versus Cyborg match up either as I'm curious on that one.

Edit: Also, what are the asterisks for by the numbers?

Yeah, sucks to be Cyborg. If they gave him proper tools to defend against anti-zoning characters then he would be top 5 w/o a doubt. He beats people 7-3 and loses 3-7. Unfortunetly his 3-7 are common tournament characters so he won't ever be a tournament viable killing machine.

I wish he could grapple on wake-up easily, I wish up-sonic disruptor was a decent anti-air, I wish TA had faster start-up, I wish he could actually wiff punish or do a mix-up or anything... i wish trait... sigh NRS just ignored him in a game full of shit.

History of Cyborg Buffs and Nerfs:
Nerfed IAFB to hit high from mid (neccesary but huge).

Redesigned trait ---> (Both a buff to speed, but nerf to duration) - does nothing to help him overcome his bad MUs.... wtf is trait going to help me with against sinestro, AM, or MMH???? Nothing

Thats it. I guess they made grapple easier lololol

Basically, they nerfed him big in the beginning, then forgot about him. Stoopid

Lets play soon do, I could use a nice set.

Edit: * = Still unsure of the MU. Either want to make it 5-5 or 4-6...or I think it is somewhere in between

 

[RYX]

snip

i think the idea was he'd be like the Guile of injustice, and they must not have considered how he'd end up vs the anti zoning characters in the long run

it's a shame, i was hoping we wouldn't have silly match up numbers anymore

 

[Relaxedstate]

i think the idea was he'd be like the Guile of injustice, and they must not have considered how he'd end up vs the anti zoning characters in the long run

it's a shame, i was hoping we wouldn't have silly match up numbers anymore

Yeahhhh, but how the hell could NRS not see that any type of charecter that relies heavily on zoning, wouldn't get blown up in the overall scheme of the game. I mean...almost every DLC charecter had some sort of teleport or orther great anti-zoning (anti-cyborg) tech.... This game hates zoning :X

 

[Relaxedstate]

i think the idea was he'd be like the Guile of injustice, and they must not have considered how he'd end up vs the anti zoning characters in the long run

it's a shame, i was hoping we wouldn't have silly match up numbers anymore

Yeahhhh, but how the hell could NRS not see that any type of charecter that relies heavily on zoning, wouldn't get blown up in the overall scheme of the game. I mean...almost every DLC charecter had some sort of teleport or orther great anti-zoning (anti-cyborg) tech.... This game hates zoning :X

 

[Barrogh]

Yeahhhh, but how the hell could NRS not see that any type of charecter that relies heavily on zoning, wouldn't get blown up in the overall scheme of the game. I mean...almost every DLC charecter had some sort of teleport or orther great anti-zoning (anti-cyborg) tech.... This game hates zoning :X

I guess early results people were getting were making it look like it's zone or die in this game. Possibly that affected NRS' decisions on what kit they should supply DLC characters with.

 

[Glass Sword]

Relaxedstate
To satisfy my curiosity can you explain some matchups for me. Why is Green Arrow even and why is Flash a bad matchup. Also what does Cyborg need to counteract some of these bad matchups? If Techno Tackle was a true command grab would that make any of his 4-6s even, for example?

 

[Relaxedstate]

Relaxedstate
To satisfy my curiosity can you explain some matchups for me. Why is Green Arrow even and why is Flash a bad matchup. Also what does Cyborg need to counteract some of these bad matchups? If Techno Tackle was a true command grab would that make any of his 4-6s even, for example?

I feel Green arrow is even since, they zone each other our pretty well. Jailhouse has said that GA actually beats Cyborg because of fire/lighting arrow management. Honestly that match is still pretty unknown, but at least GA anti-zoning isnt even close to as bad as other characters. MB air fireballs allow Cyborg to keep zoning authority in that MU, so long as Cyborg has meter he should be at advantage. Other than that it is just zoning trades or shitty offense trades.

Flash is bad because flash can dodge all projectiles thrown at him, and even then, he can actually dash in pretty safe since he is so fast. One block fireball midscreen equals him getting in. Once he is in it is pretty self explanatory about how he beats Cyborg. Mostly though he just by passes zoning pretty easily with only a small amount of patience. He will take maybe 6%-8% chip before he gets an opportunity to do 60% resets. It would be 5-5 if flashes offense capabilities were not so strong in comparison to Cyborgs. (I used ti have it 5-5).

I am not sure what you mean by true command grab. It is a grab, it just can be ducked low, and even high after a few of Cyborgs weird hurtbox normal strings. It is just a bad bad command grab. Very slow. I have tried to implememtn it so bad in my gameplay as a wakeup or to end a string....and even as a footsie tool to protect his spacing. In the end it is just not viable.... It is full combo punishable on an easy read/reaction, where as he only get like 9-12% and a hard knockdown with MB. I honestly do not know how it might change some of his matchups....but right now it doesnt do shit for him damage wise, footsiewise, or setup wise (Exceot in the corner MB version is good).

Did you have anything in mind?

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

yeah idk about green arrow probably just say 5-5 and leave it alone

 

[Glass Sword]

I am not sure what you mean by true command grab. It is a grab, it just can be ducked low, and even high after a few of Cyborgs weird hurtbox normal strings. It is just a bad bad command grab. Very slow. I have tried to implememtn it so bad in my gameplay as a wakeup or to end a string....and even as a footsie tool to protect his spacing. In the end it is just not viable.... It is full combo punishable on an easy read/reaction, where as he only get like 9-12% and a hard knockdown with MB. I honestly do not know how it might change some of his matchups....but right now it doesnt do shit for him damage wise, footsiewise, or setup wise (Exceot in the corner MB version is good).

Did you have anything in mind?

Well when I say true command grab I meant you can't duck it. Then you have a true 50/50 also you are mistaken it is not slow 16 frames is not slow for startup on a command grab, it has very bad recovery that is what you meant.

 

[Crathen]

Doesn't Cyborg have a hard knockdown ender from his combos so that he can setup a command grab on their wakeup that can't be ducked /backdashed / jumped similar to Lobo / Shazam / Grundy?

And what about TA into command grab?Does the Command grab connect if they block TA?

 

[Mikemetroid]

Grundy v Cyborg
This MU is changing pretty hardcore.

No longer is it the 2-8 and I'm really pushing for it to not be 3-7.

I'm actually shooting for a 6-4.

Grundy:
Pros:
Has WCC's
Decent Dash
5f AA
Can Swamphands inbetween ex IAGB.
DEFENSE TRAIT.
Defense Trait combos can go well above 60%

Cons:
Has to eat damage to get close
Is in a "8-2" MU state when defense isn't up
Certain stages will he will have to eat up throwables

Cyborg:
Pros:
IAGB
Locking Grundy in a "8-2" state
Builds large amount of meter
Regain health
great mobility
Stage interactions most likely in his favor

Cons:
When defense trait is up, IAGB becomes useless
Has to take risks for rushdown
Damage

Relaxedstate NY_Jailhouse

 

[Relaxedstate]

Grundy v Cyborg
This MU is changing pretty hardcore.

No longer is it the 2-8 and I'm really pushing for it to not be 3-7.

I'm actually shooting for a 6-4.

Grundy:
Pros:
Has WCC's
Decent Dash
5f AA
Can Swamphands inbetween ex IAGB.
DEFENSE TRAIT.
Defense Trait combos can go well above 60%

Cons:
Has to eat damage to get close
Is in a "8-2" MU state when defense isn't up
Certain stages will he will have to eat up throwables

Cyborg:
Pros:
IAGB
Locking Grundy in a "8-2" state
Builds large amount of meter
Regain health
great mobility
Stage interactions most likely in his favor

Cons:
When defense trait is up, IAGB becomes useless
Has to take risks for rushdown
Damage

Relaxedstate NY_Jailhouse

Yup. Could become 6-4. Probably still 7-3 though. All grundy need is one opening to get a life lead and if played right that should be GG. 5frame AA and defense trait make him a tank. Suicide for Cyborg to just go in. I agree with most of your points except Cyborg gaining health. His trait is, while usable in this MU, is to no advantage. An easy swamphands on reaction will hit him out of trait.

 

[Relaxedstate]

Well when I say true command grab I meant you can't duck it. Then you have a true 50/50 also you are mistaken it is not slow 16 frames is not slow for startup on a command grab, it has very bad recovery that is what you meant.

Yes slow recovery I meant. (Not that 16 frames startup is great). Problem is that Cyborg's only overhead comes from 112, this string is interrupted almost every time by seasoned players, and easily reacted to by novices alike. Since the opponent has no reason to ever NOT block low against Cyborg, his grab will never hit and always wiff.

IT is an okay spacing tool since it has great range. BUT, that 16 frames startup turns into about 25 frames to react to it from max range.

 

[Qwark28]

Yes slow recovery I meant. (Not that 16 frames startup is great). Problem is that Cyborg's only overhead comes from 112, this string is interrupted almost every time by seasoned players, and easily reacted to by novices alike. Since the opponent has no reason to ever NOT block low against Cyborg, his grab will never hit and always wiff.

IT is an okay spacing tool since it has great range. BUT, that 16 frames startup turns into about 25 frames to react to it from max range.

when are you gonna be on you spammer.

 

[Relaxedstate]

when are you gonna be on you spammer.

This week a lot. Lets do it!

 

[Qwark28]

This week a lot. Lets do it!

You got my tag?

 

[Relaxedstate]

I HATE MMH

 

[Phosferrax]

I HATE MMH

Just don't bother with MU lol.

 

[Relaxedstate]

Okay I have been grinding the HELL out of the MMH MU. It actually is not tottaly 'unwinnable' although it is beyond very bad. The key is his forward dash. The recovery is probably top 2-3 in the game. I do lots of single dashes or double dashs into MB-IAFB, or into normals, or into just nothing (teleport bait). The double dash into nothing will cause his OH to wiff if he throws it, and recover in time to block regular teleport and full combo punish. It becomes a weird guessing game. He controls the pace, but you can fight back. You need to play a very sporadic and random game (IE: dash into IAFB, stop, iafb, dashx2 iafm MB, Stop, iafb x2, charge ground fireball, cancel dash into normal pressure etc...).

DO NOT IAFB from full screen. He can Ia tele on reaction for 40+%. If he gets the life lead (which is easy for him) he will beat you. His zoning can compete with you and chip trades tend to lean in his favor. The forward dashing fireball strats works well when he is zoning you as well. A forward dash can recover in time to block. a dash or double dash into into iafb will cause some of MMH's overhead fireballs to wiff which will net you an 8% punish and a free follow up iafb. Bait teleport with dashblocking, charging a groundfireball or trait cahrge into forwards dash is a great way to bait a teleport. Your IaNb and regular nova blast are cyborgs biggest weakness and greatness strength in this MU. The MMH will not be able to resist trying to punish them or capitalize off them. Use that to your advantage. Greed is blinding...

The safest way to deal with a blocked OH teleport is to MB IAFB. This will catch any backdash of his or hit him out of a MBb3 attempt. Other options including dashing in standing 1 pressure to catch the dash or f22, which give you frame advantage. (The first f2 sometime wiffs so make sure to take a small walk step before initiating. )

It is all about being unpredictable with your zoning. You need to be aggressive when you have the opportunity, but overall cautious and reactionary a majority of the time (the empty dashing provides the illusion of aggression but is actually, reactionary and defensive). Once he respects your ability to IAFB and you make him afraid to play the teleport guessing game. You can start to abuse your iafb and even groundfireballs. You can't be afraid to be in his face from the start. The risk reward is in his favor from every point on the screen and every situation. Get a life lead, get the first hit, and you stand a chance.

Play it safe, he can go punch for punch for a while, but eventually you will need to set up a corner combo or B3 combo to net some damage.

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

yup thats how i played it, you have to dash forward a lot and play random. IE you have to take risks 100% of the match while MMH can do whatever he wants. really dumb