@MKF30 Decided to move the convo here since someone asked us to. for everyone else this post is about Raiden vs Frost.
I'm not going to address the "reads or guesses" thing because it's not important to the discussion and doesn't change anything no matter how you define it.
The main point of my argument is that frost played properly uses tools where Raiden simply cannot contest. This means not fullscreen projectiles that get teleported. Not only doing B22 Spin every time. Not being overly reliant on F2. Proper spacing on her buttons. Actually taking advantage of Frost strengths. This makes it exceptionally difficult for Raiden to play to his strengths which actually rely on neutral then staggers to score knockdowns/corner carry so he then can take advantage of his mix. He's not the type of character to constantly keep space like Jade, Kitana, Cassie. And he also doesn't excel at tricky in your face pressure like Jax or Liu Kang. He's somewhere in the middle and Frost just so happens to exploit him.
To answer the range Raiden has F1 (16f up angled high), F2 (21f High), F4 (19f mid), Fly (21f mid special we all know), Teleport (11f NOT 1f. not even ex is 1f), bolt (28f high projectile), and strike (27f mid directable "projectile"). Everything here is some combo of slow and or high and teleport is just risky to just do. Everything else doesn't actually contend at the range of Frost's D4 so to be able to threaten with anything else he has to be well inside of Frost's range. Meanwhile Frost is using normal that do have somewhat slower startup on average (B2 and F2 both 19f) she's much safer because of a lack of hurtbox with more range. She gets faster better projectiles and a projectile shield. And she only has to be in your face if she wants to. And then she can cancel into safe spin for free unlike Raiden who is spending def bar when he cancels for any amount of safety.
Which move are you referring to? Her S1 and S3 both have little horizontal range. 22 is +5f but easily ducked so no frost would use them in your face unless they want to get immediately poked and lose their turn. S4 also has limited range and is a high so you can poke. Im not sure which high move you are referring to.
F2. It functions the same as Jacqui's dash punch. Long range quick high that you want to duck which opens up the long range which just also happens to be B22 for frost as well. The added bonus being since it's a sword normal there's no hurtbox at the end. You can't "hit" the ice blades. it also pushes back unlike Jacqui's.
D4 is a great tool for sure. When blocked, it is -9f but Im not familiar enough with raiden to know what your options are afterward. Maybe a teleport? I don’t know. Alternatively, if you block her D4, then the match is back at neutral. Depending on the distance, a quick dash in grab could catch ppl off guard.
Please go check what options are available if you want to discuss this. -9 means nothing at the range D4 reaches. If a frost properly uses their tools there's only certain characters who can really "retaliate" against her with buttons. Teleporting after blocking D4 makes raiden negative. The match is back to neutral but this is where Frost does better than Raiden. Which is a common theme in my points about the match up. Everything the frost does besides just going in with spin just leads to more neutral where she's perfectly fine and actually should want to play the match against raiden.
B22 is her main tool and once you have the flawless block of the second hit down, you’ve shut down most of her game plan. Now you can say “ok but Frost can do B22~Spin”. The spin is -4f so you can poke me first. If you start doing that, I will block your poke and take my turn back with my 16f mid. If I start waiting for your poke, you switch it up by going into a grab or a string. If you start doing that, Ill poke right after my spin. And the cycle goes on. You have to try to figure out (i.e. read based on previous experiences) what im about to do, just like I have to try to figure out what you’re going to do after my spin is over. You only guess if you’re unfamiliar with the MU. When you know the MU and know each option I can do and you can do, then it’s a lot more than just a guess, it's an informed decision from each player.
IF flawless block is "shutting down" your plans then you aren't properly playing around it. The only option here isn't just the full B22 spin. As for stuff after spin, we're back on the read/guess situation. You can try to make all the informed decisions you want but at the end of the day you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if D1 is the right play or not. And yes that's apart of the MU and just the way it is. This isn't really a pro or con for either but this situation is much more in Frost control. For Raiden to do anything similar he has a much harder time especially against Frost. And if he want's to cancel into something he's spend defensive bar on block. Where Frost different ranges for her buttons have some leeway and overlap Raiden does not. Frost's plan comes in to play way before Raiden's does.
A good Frost will only use that tool seldomly. You duck it and it’s a full combo punish because its recovery on whiff is 29f or you can D2(KB). You block it, we are at 0 and your 7f D1 beats her 9f D1. You try to punish with a string, which many unfamiliar with Frost try to do, you eat a poke and lose your turn. It’s a big risk and if you see a Frost player use F2 a lot, you can bait it and punish. Which is what @MKF30 was doing to me.
Exactly use it seldomly. You only need the threat of even simple movement getting caught by this move. As for being 0 on block again with this range you're not worried about anything. There's much more context the game isn't purely numbers. If you're in spots where you're actually worried about the 7F D1 after F2 you're playing incorrectly. Proper use will see Raiden's D1 become irrelevant while your D1 actually has much more range than his as well. Couple with better movement (her back step is really good) there's nothing here for Raiden except to just keep ducking hoping he catches a whiff. While, as you said, a good frost will actually seldomly do this move.
16f for the first projectile to come out, add the travelling time of a fairly slow projectile and a huge recovery and its very doable. Her other projectile, the one that travels in an arc, is a High so you can duck it or also react to it since its pretty slow. Especially since Raiden’s teleport has a 1f startup.
If you are reacting to 16f with teleport (it's 11f not 1) then the frost player is again playing incorrectly. You must be full screen or something and why would anyone just shoot anything at full screen against any teleporter? Walk forward. Or don't. Raiden cannot dictate the game from fullscreen he's weakest at that range. You think any Raiden is actually going to react to projectiles at 2 dashes away? Not if you've been properly abusing her long range buttons and making him focus more on moving around and being mindful of distances.
And this is just without taking into account her other options as well. A projectile shield and that other lobbed high projectile is ridiculously fast 12f (just like Sonya) and also recovers very quickly with a really good hitbox. I don't think Frost players are actually taking advantage of how good of a projectile this really is combined with the rest of her neutral. Maybe I haven't faced the right ones but even in talking about this matchup before I don't see anyone mention it. Any Raiden record frost taking 2 steps back and do the close version and see for yourself.
if you ask me what the MU is, like 5-5 or 6-4 or wtv, I dont know. I havent played enough Raidens to know. But what I can tell you is that once Frost is demystified, you realize how she is a fundamentally lack luster character and the only way to win with her is to see a person's pattern and adapt to it with risky funky shit.
If you're on XBL, Id love to play some games too (gt: k1ndred)
Frost isn't a mystery. This can all be plainly seen with just some time in the lab. What risk does frost have to take against Raiden when her buttons reach longer than his and he doesn't have much to retaliate with besides things like F4 (the 19f lightning knee), bolt (28f high projectile), Strike (27f mid lightning), and teleport (11f movement with no attack and he's either right next to you or away but at the cost of bar)? There's no way this matchup isn't a losing MU for Raiden. Where does he gain any advantage or at least mitigate the strengths of Frost tools?
Wish I could play but I'm on PS4.
