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Raiden Match-Ups Thread

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Please actually explain what you're doing. What do you do from Frost B22 range? D4 range? What do you after you block B2 or D4? You say Raiden's game is countering, countering what and how? You can't zone a frost. That makes 0 sense. I wouldn't be surprised about how you play. Raiden can't stay in someone's face it's not how he's designed. You get in and out switching tempos. F4 is 19f, that is not fast. Raiden himself has 2 mids and a low that is faster. I haven't gotten a single actual counter point to anything I've said.
I don't know much of frosts actual frame data, and maybe I haven't played a good frost but NDucking and abuse of d3 with a healthy dose of b2 staggers should be enough.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Losing matchup doesnt mean he never wins, to clarify most of his matchups are 6-4 7-3 storm cell not withstanding his buttons are shit his zoning is shit and unless your totally dominating a set your not winning it. Super all or nothing character
His zoning definitely isnt shit it's just not ththe best but not the worst, I have kept Jacqui Sonya, cassie and jaxs away, so he can zone it's just not easy. Raiden is one of the few honest characters I. the entire game, he struggles cause hes no busted like most of the tops and s tiers.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
His zoning definitely isnt shit it's just not ththe best but not the worst, I have kept Jacqui Sonya, cassie and jaxs away, so he can zone it's just not easy. Raiden is one of the few honest characters I. the entire game, he struggles cause hes no busted like most of the tops and s tiers.
You will zone jax and Jacqui up close they will dominate you period. 6-4 easily probably worse. Your not zoning cassie or Sonya ever that's you out playing your opponent, 9-2 conservative.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Please actually explain what you're doing. What do you do from Frost B22 range? D4 range? What do you after you block B2 or D4? You say Raiden's game is countering, countering what and how? You can't zone a frost. That makes 0 sense. I wouldn't be surprised about how you play. Raiden can't stay in someone's face it's not how he's designed. You get in and out switching tempos. F4 is 19f, that is not fast. Raiden himself has 2 mids and a low that is faster. I haven't gotten a single actual counter point to anything I've said.
I can zone a frost, play me and find out. F4 into db2 punishes, I can zone almost everyone with raiden. That is my style, with all due respect most frost players I've played aren't that great or hard to counter except for kindred so far on xbox. So unless your frost is apt better than his I dont see you giving me that many problems with her vs my raiden. I can also punish you with 21 into db2 or b12 etc. If you do that move you better hit me because one way or another i will punish you unless you have bad lag causing input delay. Its fast enough and staggers f4. She has moves that whiff and leave her open. Like I said play me and find our. Kindred just told you she can be punished and has. So not sure what more convincing you want.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Again raiden not having a winning matchup doesnt make him bad he's fair does he need help? Only change I would make is extend b2 range or give it push back.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
You will zone jax and Jacqui up close they will dominate you period. 6-4 easily probably worse. Your not zoning cassie or Sonya ever that's you out playing your opponent, 9-2 conservative.
I never said up close, I would only do that from a far. He can buffer lightning bolt after bf1. And you dont zone people close lol you do it mid at closest to far. I've zoned them before from full to max and you can dominate or beat someone zoning too.

I think if you played me you'd change your mind a bit. I keep people far all the time with raiden, jade and liu kang. Obviously raiden isnt a zone exclusive character but that's not to say you cant xone. And not all his match ups are bad. Hes honest. Not bad theres a difference. They did scream raiden compared to mk x though. Hes not as good as mk x or mk 9 raiden. Obviously.

Oh he needs more changes than just that, his db2 amp needs to be safe naked or cancelled from anything besides just f4. His KBs suck or are irrelevant 2 of the 4 he has. While I agree most match ups do not favor raiden I dont believe they're all against him or that he cant win it's just more of an uphill battle
 
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ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
I never said up close, I would only do that from a far. He can buffer lightning bolt after bf1. And you dont zone people close lol you do it mid at closest to far. I've zoned them before from full to max and you can dominate or beat someone zoning too. I think if you played me you'd change your mind a bit. I keep people far all the time with raiden, jade and liu kang. Obviously raiden isnt a zone exclusive character but that's not to say you cant xone. And not all his match ups are bad. Hes honest. Not bad theres a difference. They did scream raiden compared to mk x though. Hes not as good as mk x or mk 9 raiden. Obviously
I'm sure your Lit and that your out playing your opponents. I never said raiden doesnt do x or y all I said he doesn't win any matchups on paper. I'm not really sure if that's even debatable is it?
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
I'm sure your Lit and that your out playing your opponents. I never said raiden doesnt do x or y all I said he doesn't win any matchups on paper. I'm not really sure if that's even debatable is it?
Nah I lose lol I made it to demi god in kl which was a pain with raiden and jade but I did feel a little relieved. Lol i just enjoy keeping people far hehe. On paper I think this game has a lot of differences vs the game itself know what i mean? I see what you're saying though, as a sports fan I'd like to use an analogy to sports if i may. Big baseball fan here, on paper the Yankees in 2018 looked the best on paper but didn't turn out that way, the red Sox won it all. Had an amazing season last year. Now this year everyone had Boston dominating again but didn't turn out that way, to be fair still 3 months of baseball left but i trust you get my point.

Sometimes things on paper can turn out very differently than a season or game itself. I do hope raiden gets buffed though lol
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
@buyacushun Ok I see more clearly what you mean. Her range seems to be the biggest issue and her safety on many of her options so Ill try to break it down by move. Obviously I know much of this is easier said than done (as is usually the case) because it depends on playstyle and context but this is just to show that just like she has options, Raiden does too.

SPIN
You make the spin sound like this safe amazing move. Yes it's good but she’s still -4f on it and has effectively lost her turn. So the way I see it, the control is yours, with your 7f poke coming out in 3. If I want to poke you first, my 9f D1 is coming out in 13f. It’s your turn to attack and I must now guess how you will attack me. So yea it’s not full combo punishable but it’s not like I can rest easy after I spin because Im safe. I’ve effectively given you the turn. What you do with it depends on how good you are at reading me. Not guessing.

LONG RANGED SPIKES
As for the spikes, yes, they don’t have a hurtbox. But Frost players aren’t doing B2, D4 and F2 all game. That B2 must eventually become B22 or a grab, which puts her right in your face. And that D4 must translate into something after the space has been created, which is usually a B22.

F2
You’re right it keeps you on your toes for sure, but it’s rarely used & doesn’t make a big difference because of that. Especially when you factor in the fact that Raiden can crouch block and F2 whiffs on him (I’ve labbed it). You’ll only get pushback if you’re stand blocking which, within a certain range, you don’t need to & shouldnt against Frost.

D4
Amazing tool for sure. Did you know you can punish someone who does multiple D4 in a row with a HOP-3 when you block the first one? At the maximum range that can allow at least two D4s to hit a blocking opponent, which is pretty freaking far. And if they catch on to this and begin stand blocking your HOP-3, well Frost is too far to have her <10f strings reach to punish and her only option is the slow 19f B2…..and we’re back to square one. Your back to square one if your opponent follows a blocked D4 into B2 also.

LONG RANGE ZONING
Very true, it is not in Frosts advantage to try to zone from full screen.
Keep in mind though, both her projectiles (unless you amplify one of them) are highs so you can neutral duck 4/5 of her projectiles. And since you are usually crouch blocking within your movement, both the close arc projectile (DBB2) & BF4 whiff on crouch block.

FROST’S RISK
You say “What risk does frost have to take against Raiden when her buttons reach longer than his” and I agree. But again, eventually Frost needs to get in your face to either grab you or try to open you up. Unless you’re impatient. For example, some people get hit with a B2 and right away try to do something so the second B2 hits them and I continue the string. I realized this when fighting against Jade and Skarlet, you have to be extra patient against ranged characters and flawless block is your friend (she has a lot of gaps. Her B12D1 has a FB gap at 2 and at D1, her B22 at the second 2, her 3442 at the 2 (in fact you can start a full string before the 2 even comes out), her 134 and 132 at the last hit of both. Plus, all her overhead strings are full combo punishable. Against someone that blocks well, Frost is reduced to Grabs.

IF flawless block is "shutting down" your plans then you aren't properly playing around it. The only option here isn't just the full B22 spin.
Obviously, there are other things with B2 you can do like B2~Grab or B2~DBB2 (that one whiffs if your crouch blocking). But that’s not the point. For every X move I give you, you can find Y move to counter. If my B22 gets flawless blocked, Im going for something else. But that’s the name of the game isn’t it? I adapted to your response and now you must adapt to mine.

As for stuff after spin, ….You can try to make all the informed decisions you want but at the end of the day you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if D1 is the right play or not. And yes that's apart of the MU and just the way it is.
True but you have to make an informed guess. EVERYBODY, you, me, sonicfox, everyone has a pattern and what separates good players from ok players are the ones that can change their pattern and adapt quickly to the other. To say it’s just guessing is like saying poker is luck. Sure, it is to some extent but its so much more.

I’ll give you an example of what goes on in my head (don’t need to read this but its just to give an idea of why I don’t think it’s just a guess):
If I choose to poke after B22~Spin, it’s not just because fuck it I dunno whats gonna happen so lets YOLO poke. It’s because Ive noticed that you pressed buttons (not pokes) last time I ended with a spin, it’s because I know that if you try to Grab or start a string with a high, my poke will beat out those 2 options, it’s because I know that if you try to jump away, the poke will catch you.
Just like all that shit is going on in my head, it must be going on in yours and if it isn’t, then you are just guessing, and you wont win. Plain and simple. YES, my poke may backfire in my face because you block it and grab me, but now I know that next time I do the spin, you might be expecting me to poke you again since you’ve caught on to me my pattern and so I will grab right away or go into a mid instead.
 
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Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Again raiden not having a winning matchup doesnt make him bad he's fair does he need help? Only change I would make is extend b2 range or give it push back.
Extending his B2 range doesn’t solve his issues. Raiden has a lot of tools but all those tools are lacklustre due to the horrible frame data he has.
He has good mids but those mids will always be outshined by other more complete characters. B12 is good but unsafe and second hit is a high so you can get D2 KB if you try to use it on delay wake up. Fly cancel is safe against faster short range moves but punishable on read by forward advancing moves like shadow kicks or nitro kicks. The only true safe option is far teleport cancel. F3 is supposed to be his stagger but it’s fake because it’s -6 and there is no reason why the opponent shouldn’t poke after you do F3 if they know the MU. F4 is good and leads to good damage only on a punish (F4~storm cell is unsafe and I do NOT recommend you do it unless you already know your opponent doesn’t duck the last hit), but it’s on the slow side. (Granted this move is actually amazing and NRS PLS don’t change F4). F2 however is next to useless. It has less range, is a HIGH and is even slower than F4. The only use it has is the upward hitbox making it useful in raiden’s optimal combos. F11 is safe but F1 has hitbox issues due to differences in staff length so opponents may get hit by the staff but not the staff Hitbox. B31 has a flawless block gap and can’t really be staggered because B3 itself is -9.
His projectiles are frankly garbage due to long startup and lightning strike is probably the most unsafe projectile in the game at -29, cannot be amplified on block and only offers minimal hit advantage (+5) with less damage and amplify will bring the opponent closer to you (the zoning tool that brings your opponent closer). I know of no other full screen check that can be full combo punished by multiple characters from full screen on block, making this move a non-factor unless you are trying to shut down full screen jumps (emphasis on try). (Scorpion with teleport, Kang with dragon kick, Cetrion with geyser, Geras with KB sand trap...) Lightning bolt is not as bad since it travel almost instantly making it good to catch neutral jumps when they try to avoid lightning strike, though it is a tad bit too slow. Amplify makes it safe at -6 and the second bolt is mid.
His jump attacks have good horizontal range making them crap jump ins and they whiff on opponents neutral ducking. So approach in the air is inherently risky.
His D2 and U2 do not hit directly upwards of him so neutral jump in the corner beats nearly all of his wake up options.
He has a great hop 3 with range comparable to B3 but it’s full combo punishable .
He has probably the second best teleport in the game behind scorpion. He has 5 different teleports to choose from and @MKF30 has shown that you can cancel TP into another TP. However the only safe option is far TP and TP cancelling can be blown up by pokes so it’s ultimately fake.

I am NOT saying his stuff doesn’t work at all. However there is a lot the opponent can disrespect for little risk. As a Raiden player it is imperative you make the opponent respect your options and amazing ability to whiff punish before you can smother them in the corner. All in all. Simple frame data tweaks and fixes to hitbox and KBs are pretty much what he needs to be a great but honest character. I outlined what I want from a future patch in the buffs wishlist thread. I fully agree that it is an uphill battle against most of the cast but he has tools to deal with top tiers. It’s just hard. Really hard sometimes.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Yeah I mean I wouldn't say fake, just very, very risky to do teleport cancels often but great against people who are super defensive. A few people in KL I did it to when they were near dead and had no idea what to do. It's just a shame his teleport can be punished in general with or without the cancels.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Extending his B2 range doesn’t solve his issues. Raiden has a lot of tools but all those tools are lacklustre due to the horrible frame data he has.
He has good mids but those mids will always be outshined by other more complete characters. B12 is good but unsafe and second hit is a high so you can get D2 KB if you try to use it on delay wake up. Fly cancel is safe against faster short range moves but punishable on read by forward advancing moves like shadow kicks or nitro kicks. The only true safe option is far teleport cancel. F3 is supposed to be his stagger but it’s fake because it’s -6 and there is no reason why the opponent shouldn’t poke after you do F3 if they know the MU. F4 is good and leads to good damage only on a punish (F4~storm cell is unsafe and I do NOT recommend you do it unless you already know your opponent doesn’t duck the last hit), but it’s on the slow side. (Granted this move is actually amazing and NRS PLS don’t change F4). F2 however is next to useless. It has less range, is a HIGH and is even slower than F4. The only use it has is the upward hitbox making it useful in raiden’s optimal combos. F11 is safe but F1 has hitbox issues due to differences in staff length so opponents may get hit by the staff but not the staff Hitbox. B31 has a flawless block gap and can’t really be staggered because B3 itself is -9.
His projectiles are frankly garbage due to long startup and lightning strike is probably the most unsafe projectile in the game at -29, cannot be amplified on block and only offers minimal hit advantage (+5) with less damage and amplify will bring the opponent closer to you (the zoning tool that brings your opponent closer). I know of no other full screen check that can be full combo punished by multiple characters from full screen on block, making this move a non-factor unless you are trying to shut down full screen jumps (emphasis on try). (Scorpion with teleport, Kang with dragon kick, Cetrion with geyser, Geras with KB sand trap...) Lightning bolt is not as bad since it travel almost instantly making it good to catch neutral jumps when they try to avoid lightning strike, though it is a tad bit too slow. Amplify makes it safe at -6 and the second bolt is mid.
His jump attacks have good horizontal range making them crap jump ins and they whiff on opponents neutral ducking. So approach in the air is inherently risky.
His D2 and U2 do not hit directly upwards of him so neutral jump in the corner beats nearly all of his wake up options.
He has a great hop 3 with range comparable to B3 but it’s full combo punishable .
He has probably the second best teleport in the game behind scorpion. He has 5 different teleports to choose from and @MKF30 has shown that you can cancel TP into another TP. However the only safe option is far TP and TP cancelling can be blown up by pokes so it’s ultimately fake.

I am NOT saying his stuff doesn’t work at all. However there is a lot the opponent can disrespect for little risk. As a Raiden player it is imperative you make the opponent respect your options and amazing ability to whiff punish before you can smother them in the corner. All in all. Simple frame data tweaks and fixes to hitbox and KBs are pretty much what he needs to be a great but honest character. I outlined what I want from a future patch in the buffs wishlist thread. I fully agree that it is an uphill battle against most of the cast but he has tools to deal with top tiers. It’s just hard. Really hard sometimes.
I dont disagree with you. But I dont think he should get any major changes. Raiden is at a spot where changing any frame data would make him into an unstoppable monster. Again if your outplaying your opponent you can condition them to never poke after f4 or any poke with storm cell, it's not safe but it makes him dangerous. Fly cancles work if you read your opponents counter moves zoning for specific matchups. Raiden is a great walking the line character hes like the rorshack test of skill in mk11
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I dont disagree with you. But I dont think he should get any major changes. Raiden is at a spot where changing any frame data would make him into an unstoppable monster. Again if your outplaying your opponent you can condition them to never poke after f4 or any poke with storm cell, it's not safe but it makes him dangerous. Fly cancles work if you read your opponents counter moves zoning for specific matchups. Raiden is a great walking the line character hes like the rorshack test of skill in mk11
Check the buff wishlist thread. His frame data changes will be minimal, making moves 1-2f less minus will make his pressure actually work. The only move where frames need to be drastically changed is lightning strike. Other moves will be perfectly viable (F3 being -4/-5 instead of -6, B1 and B3 being 1-2f safer) will be all he needs. He’s honest and has good tools that are held back by hit box issues and bad frames on block. Adjusting the hit boxes and KB requirements alone will send many characters up the tier list (Johnny and Noob come to mind). Therefore minimal frame changes will make Raiden more viable and competitive, but will not break him in any way.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Check the buff wishlist thread. His frame data changes will be minimal, making moves 1-2f less minus will make his pressure actually work. The only move where frames need to be drastically changed is lightning strike. Other moves will be perfectly viable (F3 being -4/-5 instead of -6, B1 and B3 being 1-2f safer) will be all he needs. He’s honest and has good tools that are held back by hit box issues and bad frames on block. Adjusting the hit boxes and KB requirements alone will send many characters up the tier list (Johnny and Noob come to mind). Therefore minimal frame changes will make Raiden more viable and competitive, but will not break him in any way.
1-2frames wont make or break a move. He doesn need safe pressure as apart of his kit, you know what will happen if he gets safe buttons and a 4 frame reversal???
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
He really does need a buff, I mean doesn't have to be OP like Scorp or E.Black or someone like that but definitely something for us Raiden mains! Also, this is trivial but anyone else notice with his brutality from a far his hat comes off(why this happens IDK) I get the fatalities and FB because of the animations and hats and masks are an issue apparently with the engine, but that always made me scratch my head that his hat just falls off with that one brutality lol.:confused:
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
He's a safe string away from being dominate
If that is so then he is already dominate because F32 is only punishable by Raijin’s 4f reversal, which is typically not considered when we discuss whether a move is safe or not because the entire point of discharge is to punish things that no one else can. What about 243? It’s -3. Does that make Raijin dominant? Sure it starts from a high but it jails from F3 on hit. That hardly makes Raijin viable currently because Raijin’s problem’s extend more than simple hitboxes and bad frames.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
If that is so then he is already dominate because F32 is only punishable by Raijin’s 4f reversal, which is typically not considered when we discuss whether a move is safe or not because the entire point of discharge is to punish things that no one else can. What about 243? It’s -3. Does that make Raijin dominant? Sure it starts from a high but it jails from F3 on hit. That hardly makes Raijin viable currently because Raijin’s problem’s extend more than simple hitboxes and bad frames.
243 also jails from D3 on hit so there’s that too.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
If that is so then he is already dominate because F32 is only punishable by Raijin’s 4f reversal, which is typically not considered when we discuss whether a move is safe or not because the entire point of discharge is to punish things that no one else can. What about 243? It’s -3. Does that make Raijin dominant? Sure it starts from a high but it jails from F3 on hit. That hardly makes Raijin viable currently because Raijin’s problem’s extend more than simple hitboxes and bad frames.
243 has a gap, and is fb punishable on 2 separate instances.