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xaaz

Noob
The tried and true method is to just hit training mode (or have someone test locally with you in vs), do an attack, have your opp take the hit or block, then have them try to reversal with various moves from various characters. Rinse and repeat with all the normals and specials from all the characters that you want to know about. After so many repetitions you'll have a solid idea of what is and is not safe. It's much more time consuming than just looking at a table with all the frame data, but it's a solid way to intuitively grasp the frame data of a move without actually knowing it.

If you wanted to go really hardcore you could setup some video capture equipment/software and record the moves at 60fps, then frame step the recording (one frame at a time) until you see the hitspark (or I guess in MK's case, the "bloodspark"). That number would be the startup frames of the move. From there you can continue to count the frames of the move until the animation resets to neutral, the sum of which plus the startup would be the moves total frames. I'm not sure how one would go about figuring out exact active and recovery frames though. Maybe you would just have to rely on intuition for those parts. Maybe setup some tests to see how good a move is in a meaty situation to get a basic idea of how long it's active frames are and perhaps some startup tests to see about how good or bad a moves recovery is. Say you determine that a certain chars uppercut comes out in 4 frames (using the frame stepping method above) and from experience you know it can be used to punish a certain blocked special from another char. We would then know that the special that was punished is -4 or more on block. You could then test it with faster and slower moves after having determined their startup frames to see what can and can't punish it, which would eventually tell you the exact frame disadvantage the given special is on block (that is to say, if the uppercut that comes out in 4 frames can punish the special but a different move that comes out in 5 frames can't, then you know that the special is exactly -4 on block). There are other considerations beyond the basic math of course, like odd hitboxes and such, but that's the basic gist of it.

Of those two methods I would personally stick with just playing around in training mode or with a friend though. The other way is too much work.
 

Urichinan

@Urichinan
Sorry, the wording I was looking for was probably standing wake-up reversals, like Reptiles run for example. I think you can teleport out of B1, 2 aswell, where a 2 would slap you out of the teleport.

And yeah, I´m starting to think that we have exhausted all combo possibilites with Sheeva in 1v1. Which is...really really sad.

Btw, does BF3 have invulnerability frames on wake-up? Computer did it once vs me and he grabbed me out of a 2, 1, 2 string.

Edit: Did you guys know about this btw? http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?4297-MK9-jump-in-glitch&p=45329#post45329
bf+3 seems to have invincible frames on wake-up, yeah.

And that almost makes me want to get hit out of them stomp JUST to make it safe. XD
 

Gast

Noob
I thought at first that maybe it´s just cause it´s EX grab, but the EX grab has zero invulnerability frames. That actually makes for a pretty decent wake-up reversal, since even if blocked it stops all offense and puts Sheeva in a favourable position.

I saw the top-tier tactics by After Dark gaming today. Gave me some ideas. B1, 2 actually causes stagger. Mixup possibilities there? Also when do you guys usually stomp? I try to stomp after every knockdown, cause it gives the opponent very little time to recover in time to counterattack. They can´t get out of the stomps area of effect, but at the same time it´s hard to cover all possible stomping locations. Stomping vs Mileena is useless, cause her teleport kick beats it outright, she can teleport kick you for free and you will get hit.
 

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
bf+3 seems to have invincible frames on wake-up, yeah.

And that almost makes me want to get hit out of them stomp JUST to make it safe. XD
Can someone confirm this. Is the invincibility exclusive only to physicals? I was getting ice shot out of my wake-up bf3.

Also, I have a confession. I don't think I can take this anymore. Sheeva, just... sucks when compared to everyone else. I've tried so many things, and her frame data is just flat out awful. Combine that with poor properties and poor damage, you can't really take her to evo and expect to win. Somebody PLEASE find something useful with her soon. I don't think they patching this game until after Evo.
 

BoysBoysBoys

Apprentice
Don't bother asking for buffs... there's always going to be low tier characters regardless.

I rarely if ever use the stomp anymore except for corners. Kabal, and Kung Lao can dash/spin, others can teleport, Sub Zero can slide, etc.

I seen the stagger video, but I think all of her staggers cancel into a BF3 anyways. However, doing a stagger and then a cross up to get you out of a corner would probably be a good idea, or if you mix cross ups in to take your opponent by surprise.
 
D_Matt_Ma they've been patching the game already since release. Who knows if Sheeva will get any improvements though. AFAIK every change so far has been a nerf to other characters, so I dunno if anyone has actually been buffed. With that being said, when other characters get their stuff nerfed that can end up being an indirect buff for her.

What would you guys say is her fastest attack? Her uppercut? The lack of frame data on this game is killing me lol.
 

page

Noob
Can someone confirm this. Is the invincibility exclusive only to physicals? I was getting ice shot out of my wake-up bf3.

Also, I have a confession. I don't think I can take this anymore. Sheeva, just... sucks when compared to everyone else. I've tried so many things, and her frame data is just flat out awful. Combine that with poor properties and poor damage, you can't really take her to evo and expect to win. Somebody PLEASE find something useful with her soon. I don't think they patching this game until after Evo.
Just like that, huh?

I'm going to give her a month. I've suffered through worse characters.

She does look like a slow character who can't compete for damage with a lot of the cast and relies on gimmicks to win rounds. I'd say the way blocking works in this game could give her an edge, but but her most dangerous option is the low throw, and the best way she has to make them duck are super slow moves like f3 or b2. It also feels really restrictive to be playing a character who has no teleport, relaunch special, or stun special in a game where many characters have more than one of those.

Still, need to bring her to a couple of gatherings at least.
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
Dunno if I'm in the wrong place, but has it been mentioned which of Sheeva's specials are wake up...able? I tried using back forward 3 after hitting the ground numerous times online....................I believe maybe I haven't really learned the meaning of a wake up attack judging from the results..
 

Gast

Noob
Hey guys, I got to do some testing today! And I think I found some nice stuff. F4 seem to be safe on block. I have tried with sweeps and reptiles run attack, which I am reasonably sure is the fastest attack in the game. B1, 2 is safe on block. The Fireball up close is safe on block, yes even vs reptiles run. The severe pushback also eliminates any combo possibilities. F2 is safe vs everything BUT Reptiles run and then it must be the fastest run possible, else it will be blocked. I had a very hard time punishing it with the run. B2 seem to be safe vs everything, you can even beat out a lot of reversal attempts or sweep attempts with a D3, so it may be advantageous on block. Reptile run beats the D3 most of the time though. 3, 3 is safe vs everything but Reptiles run, and then it must be the fastest run possible. Of course most of the time you will cancel it with BF3 or fireball so it doesent matter too much. Also worth to note is that 1, B2, F1 is safe on block vs everything but fastest reptile run possible. 1, 2, B1 is safe on block vs everything but I think most people already knew that. 4 seem to be safe on block vs everything too, Reptiles fastest run possible MIGHT be able to punish it, we are unclear on that. 4 can be canceled into BF3 however so vs standing opponents its completely safe and leads to advantage.

Other interesting find is that EX DB3 goes through low pokes like D3 or D4 and grabs properly. But not sweeps, but the super armor absorbs the sweep, leaving Sheeva at a possible advantage and can possibly DB3 immediately afterwards and grab the opponent. It kind of depends on who you are facing though and how fast their sweeps are, I´m reasonably sure Smoke can stand before the second DB3 lands. It also seems that Sheeva can get a free jump crush on Kung Lao when he teleports. Possible strategy vs Kung Lao to bait teleports by spamming missiles, then jumping on teleport? I think that on a neutral teleport and a late Jump Crush, Kung Lao can punish with spin. However if you land to the right or to the left, Kung Lao is left completely vulnerable. Uppercuts are also extremely unreliable ways to deal with Jump Crush.A lot of punish commands gets messed up if you land behind them, mind-game opportunities there.

Edit: Oh and I forgot to add that on the subject of Reptiles run, a blocked run doesent seem to be able to be punished, but he cannot resume pressure afterwards. A 2 seem to be able to beat out everything he can do afterwards.
 

page

Noob
The biggest problem I have with what Sheeva's got right now, and the way MK9 works, is that it's basically impossible to hit confirm some really important stuff. Which is a shame, because she'd be beastly otherwise.
 

Gast

Noob
The biggest problem I have with what Sheeva's got right now, and the way MK9 works, is that it's basically impossible to hit confirm some really important stuff. Which is a shame, because she'd be beastly otherwise.
What are you having problem confirming? If its grabs then there are ways to guarantee both grabs will land.
 

page

Noob
Looking at it more, it may be possible. But difficult.

If you could hit or block confirm f3, bf3_db3 then it would be a very solid mixup option. It's slow enough that people can learn to block it, after all.

I mean, it would be really nice to have that. It would make her a legit threat at any range you could land f3.
 

Bolton

Noob
what's the timing to execute jump crush? i have full x bar in training and i'm having a hard time strangely enough
 

Gast

Noob
Yeah that is a problem considering how fast you have to input either the DB3 or BF3. F3 doesent lock the opponent in crouch for long enough for the DB3 either, so its pretty risky.
 

BoysBoysBoys

Apprentice
Every one of her special moves, besides DF2 can be used as a wake up attack. I kind of forgot about using these, but they may be just enough to majorly increase her wake up and pressure game. If someone jumps in, wake up with the anti-air grab. If someone is staying grounded, go for a BF3, or Ex BF3 if you're cornered. If you got knocked back, roll back and go for a really quick DB4. You can use DU for both melee and ranged... range but don't get over zealous with it and DB4 since it'll be easily punished. I haven't used any of these yet, and their viability will really depend on how much invincibility frames you get. If at least BF3 and DF1 have good frames, then she may be much better than I thought. ;p

And just a little tid bit.. I love when people break BF3 when they're not even breaking any damage. ;p
 

Urichinan

@Urichinan
Hey guys, I bought a video camera today so now I can start uploading videos all the time now. (I was using my dad's iPhone and he had to hold it for me while I played) I'll be uploading a Sheeva tag team combo video featuring the each character we have in the tag thread individually (Quan Chi/Sheeva and separate video for Kano/Sheeva, etc.) so I'll be putting those up soon.

Also I don't know if this was mentioned before, but here is a quick thing I noticed, Quad Toss > bf+3 always work when her back is facing the screen. So after db+3 > Step > nj+1/2 > Quad Toss always do the one that makes her back face the screen. (Meaning if you're back is already facing the screen during db+3 then do j+1 so she doesn't turn around, but use j+2 is she is facing forward)
 

BoysBoysBoys

Apprentice
How good is BF+3 as a wake up though...I seem to just get swept by the CPU when trying to do this.
It depends on what pressure your opponent is putting on, the distance they're at, and there's some guessing involved. I've played against a Reptile and it was working well. It doesn't seem to have that much invincibility frames though, but if you're doing it at close distance you shouldn't need much.

And something I've been doing after a mid screen BF3 is dash dash, F4. It comes out very fast and pushes you forward, safe on block, and if it does hit pushes them very far. You can also fake it and bait a punish by dashing, and blocking.
 

Gast

Noob
I found something neat! You can combo quad toss after a jump in 1/2. Not sure if this was posted elsewhere, just didn´t think about it since B2 is sooo slooooooow.

Also really looking forward to seeing your videos Urichinan! Especially the Kano/Sheeva one, hahaha.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
Remember that b,f+3 can be ducked, so I'm not surprised that you are being swept out of it.
I wasnt suprised either but I assumed moves that are "invisible on wakeup" can override any rush-downed incoming attacks once your knocked down the opponent is going in to you. Its good to know that some invisible wake ups can be swept then. I wonder if her ground pound can be swept on wakeup too.
 

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
This is a big problem I have with Sheeva. She's already is biggest character and can be comboed till no end. But to not give her a wake-up defensive move like Kung Lao's hat spin is flat out wrong. BF3 has so far proven to be a VERY weak get off me move. I do know that the wake-up attack flashes when you do DU off a wake-up. Maybe (and I stress the maybe part) BF3 is invincible to non-lows, while DU is invincible to all lows.

Regardless, projectiles seem to hit her all the way. Strange thing is, the air throw is a wake-up attack for Jax, but doesn't appear to be for Sheeva.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
Not sure how good DU is on wake up either lol...iv tried doing this and would just get smacked out of the air. Then again this was online so maybe the input was too delayed for the move to be activated in its true "invisible state" but i dont even know.

Fighting against the expert sheeva...it seems her ground stomp is pretty effective on wake up and I couldnt really hit her again when shed get knocked down. Only thing with this move is her opponent could probably just bait that and do a cross up-combo, get her from behind.

If the online wasnt such shit things would be so much easier to figure out but I cant even do a 4-hit basic string online its that delayed.
 

BoysBoysBoys

Apprentice
Use DU on wake up for projectile spammers, or if you get hit by a projectile while doing a DU.

BF3 is a good wake up when they're at around sweep range. Other wise you're stuck blocking.

Her air grab can be used for wake up.

I think her ground stomp would be far too risky non full screen.

Off topic wake up wise, but her F4 is sooo good.