QUESTIONS/INFO THREAD

[xaaz]

Filling in some of the blanks for the guide up there. The info below is taken from the in-game training mode and menus (names, commands, %s, strings) and the KE guide (combos). Seems like a good enough place to start.


Basic Attacks
Front Punch (1) = High 3%
Back Punch (2) = High 5%
Front Kick (3) = High 5%
Back Kick (4) = High 9%

D+1 = High 2%
D+2 = High 12% (Uppercut)
D+3 = Low 1%
D+4 = Low 3%

B+1 (Big Swing) = High 5%
T+2 (Step Palms) = High 5%
B+2 (Low Swipe) = Low 7%
T+3 (Knee Kick) = Low 5%
T+4 (Swinging Leg) = High 11%
B+4 (Sweep) = Low 7%
1+3 (Back Throw) = 14%
T+1+3 (Twd Throw) = 14%

Attack Strings
Shokan Fury = 1, 2, B+1 (9%)
Blood Lust = 1, B+2, T+1 (15%, Overhead)
Darkness = B+1, 2, 1+2 (15%)
Four-Way = 2, 1, 2, T+1 (14%, Overhead)
Sheeva Rush = 2, 1, 2, B+1 (16%)
Quad Toss = B+2, 1+2 (15%)
Demolish = T+2, B+1 (15%)
Turmoil = 3, 3 (11%)
Rehabilitated = T+3, 2 (15%)

Special Moves
Fireball = DT2 High 11%
Jump Stomp = DU Unblockable 10%
Ground Pound = DB4 Unblockable 8%
Grab n Punch = BT3 High 17%
Anti Air Grab = DT1 Unblockable 13%
Low Grab = DB3 Low 13%

Enhanced Moves
Fire Blast = DT2+bl High Knockdown 13%
Jump Crush = DU+bl Unblockable 13%
Ground Smash = DB4+bl Unblockable 15%
Untamed Fury = BT3+bl High 20%
Power Anti Air = DT1+bl Unblockable 17%
Anti Duck Throw = DB3+bl Low 16%

X-Ray Attack
Slam Dance = 3+4+bl Unblockable Fullscreen 33%

Combos
2,1,2,DB4 15%
Jump-In 1/2,1,2,B+1,DashToward,D+2 19%
Jump-In 1/2,2,1,2,T+1,DT2 23%
Jump-In 1/2,1,2,B+1,DashToward,DT1 20%
Jump-In 1/2,2,1,2,T+1,BT3 28%
Jump-In 1/2,1,2,B+1,DashToward,2,1,DT1 24%
Jump-In 1/2,1,2,B+1,DashToward,2,1,BT3 26%
Jump-In 1/2,2,1,2,3+4+bl 40%

 

[DrDogg]

Sheeva has no special-mid attacks? Also, do we know what's safe and what's unsafe? Perhaps what leaves her at advantage?

 

[xaaz]

No overhead specials in and of themselves. To be fair though, Jump Crush and Ground Smash are both unblockable, so unless she gets hit out of their start up (both of which are painfully long) or her opp gets the hell out of the way, they're going to connect. Her strings that end in T+1, like Four-Way and Blood Lust, end as overheads though. T+1 on it's own doesn't do jack, but if its at the end of those strings you get and overhead "ground bounce" that you can continue to combo off of. I've only been able to do really basic stuff after the bounce, like canceling the T+1 into a Fireball or Air Grab (corner) because she does this stupid laugh after the T+1 if you don't cancel it that takes forever to finish which prevents following it up with another normal. Maybe there's a trick to extending that combo beyond the T+1 without being forced into a cancel (or maybe you can dash cancel out of it and I just can't seem to get it to work), but I haven't figured one out yet. Her Low Grab will also catch low blocks, and it pops them up afterwards so you can juggle, so I guess that sort of qualifies since it beats low blocks even though it doesn't register as a mid.

I'm also not entirely sure what is or is not safe yet. I don't have any frame data and I still don't have a solid feel for her yet.

 

[BoysBoysBoys]

B+1, 2, 1+2 xx BF3 is 29% on the wall. Personally I find this easier to cancel into.
3, 3 BF3 is 24%, can only be canceled into BF3
2, 1, 2, BF3 is 23%
B2, 1+2, BF3 is 31% , 34% for ex.
B2, 1+2, DF2 is 26%

Using her low grab
DB3, 2, 1, BF3 - 32%
DB3, 1, BF3 - 30% (Easier to do)

Overall, it seems pointless to use her ex moves... none of them seem great for wake up and they add minimal damage. Considering her X-Ray is unblockable on the ground, and easily combod into, it might be better to save it for that. Some of her normals also weaken her X-ray if used alone, e.g F2+3+4+b. Also, in Ladder I swear I seen a pop up combo including her Fireball that did 30%+ damage, but I was also against Shang Tsung so he could of added a jump, or another special move altogether.

 

[xaaz]

I'm feeling that the Four-Way (2,1,2,T1) is a solid go to bnb for her. The 2,1,2 part of the string gives you so much time to hit confirm and decide what you want to follow it up with depending on the situation and you can cancel the last 2 and the T1 into anything. It just seems so open and really lets you mix things up.

If they block low, you can finish with the T1, which hits mid, and cancel it into BT3 (corner, all chars. midscreen, all chars except Kitana/Mileena), DT2 (midscreen, all chars), and DT1 (corner, all chars).

If they block high, you can finish with the 2 or T1 (I personally would extend the block string with the T1 to build more meter) and cancel into some mix ups with DU (with B/T whiff + dash cancel shenanigans), DB4, Throw (this feels really slow though), and DT2 (makes space and chips).

If they don't block at all and it connects from the onset, you can cancel the T1 into the same stuff as above and even cancel the second 2 into XRay (which combos for 36% or 40% if you do it off a jump in).

The string just seems really versatile. There are other ones that do more damage but I feel the easy 2,1,2 hit confirm and versatility of Four-Way puts it on top. I mean in the long run it might be crap though. Maybe we'll find a 40-60%+ combo based on something else down the line, but for now I'm really liking Four-Way and really enjoying Sheeva.

 

[NoDoubt]

does T stand for toward? and D is down right. sorry not familar wit abbreviations

 

[BecomingDeath13]

I usually use B and F for back and forward so seeing a T kind of confused me at first. [user]Arion[/user] that is indeed Toward

 

[BoysBoysBoys]

What have you been using to punish whiffed moves like Mileenas roll/Scorpions air teleport? So far I've been using 2, BF3 which is 20%. B+1, 2, 1+2, BF3 is 24%, and currently testing on Mileena I can only seem to get it working on the wall. Her B1 doesn't keep them in the air long enough for a viable juggle.

 

[Kombat AllStar]

i'd be interesting to see how many ppl actually use her in tourneys

 

[DrDogg]

No overhead specials in and of themselves. To be fair though, Jump Crush and Ground Smash are both unblockable, so unless she gets hit out of their start up (both of which are painfully long) or her opp gets the hell out of the way, they're going to connect. Her strings that end in T+1, like Four-Way and Blood Lust, end as overheads though. T+1 on it's own doesn't do jack, but if its at the end of those strings you get and overhead "ground bounce" that you can continue to combo off of. I've only been able to do really basic stuff after the bounce, like canceling the T+1 into a Fireball or Air Grab (corner) because she does this stupid laugh after the T+1 if you don't cancel it that takes forever to finish which prevents following it up with another normal. Maybe there's a trick to extending that combo beyond the T+1 without being forced into a cancel (or maybe you can dash cancel out of it and I just can't seem to get it to work), but I haven't figured one out yet. Her Low Grab will also catch low blocks, and it pops them up afterwards so you can juggle, so I guess that sort of qualifies since it beats low blocks even though it doesn't register as a mid.

I'm also not entirely sure what is or is not safe yet. I don't have any frame data and I still don't have a solid feel for her yet.

I was referring to special-mids, not overheads. Attacks that you can't duck under, but can still be blocked low.

I don't have the game yet, but from what I've seen of her Jump Crush and Ground Smash, they look pretty useless in high level play. No one good is going to get hit by either of those.

Without knowing what's safe, you can't really say which combos are looking good. If the one you mention that ends in an overhead is unsafe on block, then it's useless in high level play.

Also, the "standard" terminology is to use B,F,U,D for the movements and 1,2,3,4 for the attacks (which you already do). I have a very hard time translating T and A (toward and away).

 

[xaaz]

BoysBoysBoys

At the moment just 2,BT3 like yourself. I haven't really experimented much with juggle punish combos, so there is probably a much better one like the one you're working on.


DrDogg

My mistake. When I see "mid" I immediately think overhead. EX Fireball is her only non-unblockable/grab special that you can't duck under but still be blocked low.

I don't think I agree with you about the Stomp or Pound being useless in high level play.

With the Pound (DB4) it has a really long start up obviously and you'd think if your opp was paying attention they would get out of the way or counter it, but even slow moves work when used at the right time. Just as a basic example, Ryu's toward+strong is used all the time in high level Super play and that thing is slow as hell, but it catches people because it's not abused and it's used in mix ups. That's just as a basic example, mind you. I realize there is a fundamental difference between Ryus toward+strong in Super and Sheevas DB4 in MK. Toward+strong is -2 on block which makes it very difficult to punish and therefore a reasonable risk, whereas DB4 is unblockable but we have no idea how long exactly the recovery is (and as far as I can tell can't be canceled out of) so the risk level is unknown at the moment. It feels like it recovers fairly quickly though, but there are probably a million different ways to answer it if your opp sees it coming. Regardless, in mix ups it feels good.

Same deal for the Stomp (DU), but that move has a mix up built into it. You hold toward after you do it and you'll land a bit behind your opp, or if you hold back you'll land a little in front (based off of where they were at the time of the input, mind you). You can also dash/jump cancel it's recovery, so you can almost immediately go into something afterwards. As another example, vs another Sheeva I've played when I see her do the Stomp I'll wait a tic and do a jump back punch, which counters a naked Stomp, but if she held toward then it'll hit me on it's way down, and if she held back then she'll land while I'm in the air, be able to dash cancel forward before I've landed, and juggle me. I mean obviously chars that have teleports, moves that move them a long distance, or moves that otherwise counter the stomp, will have varying degrees of success dealing with the mix up, but I don't think it's useless at all.

I don't feel Four-Way is useless either. I may not know what it's frame data is, but the string itself being safe or unsafe on block means very little. Like I was explaining in my post above, it's what the string can lead to, what you follow it up with, that makes it good in my opinion. I don't just stop at the overhead (T1). The overhead (or the preceding 2) is canceled into various moves (or dropped) based on the situation. The string itself is just how to get into a bigger combo or a mix up. I would never just do 2,1,2,T1 and end it at that.

Sorry about the confusion with my abbreviations. I come from an SF background and use the names of normals (ie, Fierce instead of heavy punch), so I got into the habit of using Toward instead of Forward to avoid confusion with Forward (medium kick) itself. Like if I were to refer to the notation of Ken's step kick, I would say Toward+Forward instead of Forward+Forward.



Little disclaimer here. I'm an MK newbie. This new MK is the first one I've ever gotten into. My primary focus, up to this point, has been SF and Marvel, in a very technical manner. As such I probably lack insight into the meta game that vets of the series obviously have, so maybe everything I've said up there is just a big pile of horseshit. That said, I don't think it is.


EDIT - Typo. Replaced "2,1,1,T1" with "2,1,2,T1."

 

[BoysBoysBoys]

i'd be interesting to see how many ppl actually use her in tourneys

Sheeva's always been pretty unpopular... I don't understand why though, she's beautiful. Seriously, it's too early for a tier list except for maybe a few noticeable top tier characters (Cough, Sub-Zero?), but the 2D trend for her seems to be that she's at the bottom.

I don't have the game yet, but from what I've seen of her Jump Crush and Ground Smash, they look pretty useless in high level play. No one good is going to get hit by either of those.

It seems this way, they're just about exactly the same as in UMK3 which were easily avoidable then. Her Ground Smash does seem faster though.

I don't feel Four-Way is useless either. I may not know what it's frame data is, but the string itself being safe or unsafe on block means very little. Like I was explaining in my post above, it's what the string can lead to, what you follow it up with, that makes it good in my opinion. I don't just stop at the overhead (T1). The overhead (or the preceding 2) is canceled into various moves (or dropped) based on the situation. The string itself is just how to get into a bigger combo or a mix up. I would never just do 2,1,2,T1 and end it at that.

Currently I'm testing 2, 1, 2, F1 on Baraka who's blocking low, and the last hit, the overhead isn't connecting. Also, I haven't been playing that much matches since there obviously aren't that much players online, and the computer isn't exactly 100% viable training, but I'm finding that 1, 2, B1 would probably be a better option, at least when countering something that has low recovery, or putting on pressure and can easily be countered. The reason I'm saying this is because 2 seems to have a decently long start up, or at the very least compared to 1, 2, which can also be canceled into her Low Grab or 1, 2, B1 if the combo connects and you get a popup. Going to have to look at the frame data though, instead of just guessing.. otherwise 2, 1, 2, F1 would be the way to go.

Here's a few miscellaneous things I've also noticed/found:

If someone throws a projectile full screen and you use her jump crush, the camera kind of goes.. strange? It immediately zooms in on whoever threw the projectile so basically you just see Sheeva disappear while you recover from the projectile.

Her X-Ray hits full screen, un blockable and has the little EX Armor that all X-Rays seem to have.

Depending on who you're fighting, you can spam fireballs full screen. It takes 8 fireballs to get a bar of ex, and does 2% chip damage. (It takes more than 8 to fill a bar if the actual fireball doesn't connect.)

You can do 2, 1, 2, DB3 (Low grab) 2, 1, 2, F1 xx Jump Crash/Ground Stomp/Fireball (Safest option) and 2, 1, 2, B1 (Low) as a mix up. This is another reason why you would use 2, 1, 2, -- instead of 1, 2, B1 if it is indeed safe.

B2, 1+2 can only be used if B2 hits, however it does hit low. It can be used one step back and then canceled into BF3 for 31%, but two steps back it seems you need to use a fireball for 26%. It's fine on the wall, and overall I don't see a reason to not use this over a sweep, unless you're also trying to avoid a projectile or other special.

 

[xaaz]

BoysBoysBoys

I didn't notice that. Baraka has a funky low hit box. I guess it's similar to how if you follow FourWay up with BT3 midscreen it'll work on everyone except Mileena and Kitana. So we can conclude that FourWay, and some of it's follow ups, definitely have some character specific limitations.

The only thing I don't like about ShokanFury (1,2,B1) is that it doesn't have a built in overhead. There may be some hidden potential there though. With FourWay we're limited to either dropping it and going for a mix up or canceling into a special (as far as I can tell). With ShokanFury we get the dash after the B1 which let's us juggle however we want. When I was playing around with it I would do 2,BT3 or 2,1,BT3 after the B1, which nets only slightly lower damage than FourWay into BT3. Maybe if we figure out a better juggle then there would be more of a reason to use it over FourWay (other than the speed issue you brought up between 1 and 2).

 

[BoysBoysBoys]

Her anti air throw seems useless. I've been playing a Kitana who would do a combo, and then jump over, it's better just to do a NJ 1/2, since it's a pop up, and from there do 2, BF3. The best I can think of is when she was doing her square wave, if you'd time it exactly right and catch her mid air. I cant think of any other moves that could be a viable AA either... maybe 4?

B2, 1+2 seems to be really nice, especially if you do it two steps away because that's outside sweep range, but not outside B2 range confusing the other player. 31% is also amazing.

From personal experience, if someone is turtling and has a teleport, it's really hard to get in, but there is obvious inexperience on my part.

Her Ex DB3 has armor properties, so it might be a good way to wake up. It also seems to go through most low attacks, e.g if Mileenas roll. I'm going to have to see if it will go through things like a sweep though. Punishing a sweep with a 30%+ would be nice if it only costs one bar. It also adds an extra 4%, totaling a 36% combo.

 

[DrDogg]

After having played the game a bit, I can confirm that the 2,1,2 string has no mixup. It's really, really easy to see the low coming and block it, and even if someone can't do that, the low isn't damaging enough to worry about.

Also, the ground stomp is useless in the open. It's super to see coming and punish. I may still explore some stuff with her, but right now she's looking very limited.

 

[hjs-Q]

After having played the game a bit, I can confirm that the 2,1,2 string has no mixup. It's really, really easy to see the low coming and block it, and even if someone can't do that, the low isn't damaging enough to worry about.

Also, the ground stomp is useless in the open. It's super to see coming and punish. I may still explore some stuff with her, but right now she's looking very limited.

Agreed.
Sad, I thought she has a chance to be good this time.

 

[xaaz]

DrDogg

Does "mix up" mean something different in MK than it does in SF? Is there some obscure schism in terminology between the two franchises that I'm not grasping? When I think mix up I think of a move, a series of moves, or some other actions, that can lead to multiple possible outcomes/enders wherein your opponent is either forced to guess how to react, given very little time to react, or conditioned to react a specific way (and punished for doing so). If I'm mistaken and it really does mean something different in MK then disregard the text below, please correct me in its meaning, and you have my apologies.


I don't see how you can say 2,1,2 has no confirmed mix up. In my eyes it leads to a 6-way mix up (low, high, mid, air, throw, command grab).

Low grab (DB3)
Overhead (T1)
Fireball / EX (DT2 / DT2+bl)
Grab n Punch (BT3)
Ground Pound / EX (DB4 / DB4+bl)
Jump Stomp (DU) (which incidentally leads to a 3-way mixup)
Anti Air Grab (DT1)
Throw

That's eight different options that can cover every level off of one string depending on what you want. If they're crouching and not blocking, you've got an answer. If they're crouching and blocking, you've got an answer. If they're standing and not blocking, you've got and answer (this one is obvious, I know). If they're standing and blocking, you've got an answer. If they try to jump out, you've got an answer. If they try to reversal, you've got an answer. Obviously there's no way to be 100% accurate with your mix ups, but reading and conditioning your opp is part of how mix ups work. If you catch your opp by going low a bunch of times and they start to adjust then answer with something that beats their adjustment (like Sheevas mid or low grab in this case). That is my thought process in SF. Surely it translates to MK.

If you want to think Sheeva is really limited with no mix ups (or in this particular case, no mix ups with FourWay) more power to you, bud. But I for one see potential here and I'm going to stick with her. It's going to take hell of a lot more than a couple days of experience with her and the remarks of someone who has only played her "a bit" to convince me that she sucks. No offense intended.

 

[DrDogg]

You have the definition of mixup correct. You're also correct that you have all of those options. However, many of those options are not viable in high level play.

Anything coming off of the low is not an option. The low is very, very easy to see coming. No one good will even think about blocking low until they see the low, which eliminates any and all mixup.

You're obviously free to play Sheeva. I have no intention of attempting to stop you. I'm simply commenting on what I think of her, just like you are. No need to get defense about it.

 

[xaaz]

DrDogg

Ok, I'm obviously not grasping the core concept of what you're saying here because I still don't undersand why this "low" completely negates the string. What specific low are we talking about? The string itself doesn't have any lows. It's high (2), high (1), high (2), mid (T1). And of the possible follow ups, only two hit low; Low Grab, which registers as Low but only works if they're crouching, and Sweep, which would normally take a really long time to do after recovering from 2 or T1, but you can cancel the 2 or T1 into a whiffed AA Grab to recover faster. Are you talking about one of those?

Also, why would no good player even think about blocking low? Sheeva has a really easy 30%+ combo that starts low, not to mention an ambiguous Jump Stomp (DU) set up that she gets off of any knockdown, even a simple sweep. It seems to me that keeping low blocks in mind would be a good thing vs her. What's the reasoning behind this disregard for blocking low?

It's unfortunate that you think I'm being defensive here, but I would really like to know why you're saying what you're saying. Help me to understand.

 

[DrDogg]

Okay, first off, I'm only referring to the 2,1,2 string when I say you don't need to worry about a low mixup.

2,1,2,b+1 - The last hit is low, but it's so slow that any high level player will see it coming. There's no guessing game and no mixup. They will not block low until they see the low coming.

Now let's look at your other options:

Low grab - This will whiff because the opponent won't be blocking low until they see the b+1 ender, which obviously isn't being used in this case.
Overhead - Same reasoning as above. The opponent will be blocking high anyway, so this won't hit.
Fireball / EX - Not sure how this is any kind of mixup. You get a bit of chip, that's it.
Grab n Punch - This falls into the same realm as the projectile.
Ground Pound / EX - Easy to see coming. Will be interrupted or jumped on reaction. No mixup here.
Jump Stomp - I haven't experimented in full yet, but I would be very surprised if there isn't an easy way to avoid this no matter which version you do. Some characters can probably even use a basic uppercut to hit her out of the air.
Anti Air Grab - Obviously doesn't work because the opponent won't be jumping unless they see the ground pound, and even then they'd probably just interrupt.
Throw - I believe most throws will be broken on reaction in high level play.

Also of note, some additional information on hit boxes. The game uses odd terms, listing all special-mids as highs for some reason:

h = high
m = special mid
L = low
O = overhead

1,2,b+1 - hhm (last hit launches)
1,b+2,f+1 - hmO
b+1,2,1+2 - mmm
2,1,2,f+1 - hmmO (first hit is special-mid if opponent is crouch blocking)
2,1,2,b+1 - hmmL (first hit is special-mid if opponent is crouch blocking)
b+2,1+2 – LL (second hit only comes out if first connects)
f+2,b+1 - hm
3,3 - mm
f+3,2 - Lm

 

[xaaz]

DrDogg

Man alive. That breakdown you did there just led me to an epiphany. I realize what my problem is. I'm thinking in terms of SF mechanics. Combos between each franchise are fundamentally different in the way they are built. In SF, to make the combos you string normals and specials together based on their individual frame data and specific properties (like one-way chains, two-way chains, special cancelable, etc). I can do an ambiguous cross up with Ken, chain a couple low/high jabs and shorts together to mix things up and hit confirm, and then build a bigger combo from there. I can't do that in MK. I can't walk up with Sheeva, hit a couple low 3s, then go into FourWay. Combos are based on those premade strings along with juggles. It's like a game of target combos. No wonder you said no high level players would block low unless they saw a low coming. Why would someone block low if there was no real low threat?

Well I kind of feel like a douchebag for making those mix up arguments above. I was completely wrong and you have my apologies and thanks.

 

[kaizt]

i feel good with jump1/2,2,1,2,f+1,bf+3. (32%), call it BnB for now.
that crouch grab, 1, bf+3 looks promising. ill try that.
i also try using 4,bf+3 as anti air because of her huge range with that kick.

 

[DrDogg]

DrDogg

Man alive. That breakdown you did there just led me to an epiphany. I realize what my problem is. I'm thinking in terms of SF mechanics. Combos between each franchise are fundamentally different in the way they are built. In SF, to make the combos you string normals and specials together based on their individual frame data and specific properties (like one-way chains, two-way chains, special cancelable, etc). I can do an ambiguous cross up with Ken, chain a couple low/high jabs and shorts together to mix things up and hit confirm, and then build a bigger combo from there. I can't do that in MK. I can't walk up with Sheeva, hit a couple low 3s, then go into FourWay. Combos are based on those premade strings along with juggles. It's like a game of target combos. No wonder you said no high level players would block low unless they saw a low coming. Why would someone block low if there was no real low threat?

Well I kind of feel like a douchebag for making those mix up arguments above. I was completely wrong and you have my apologies and thanks.

No need to feel like a douche. These forums are here to discuss character strategy and that's exactly what we've been doing.

 

[Bronzefist]

I'm looking to pick her up as my first character. Few questions:

1) What combos are posted in the official guide? Have they been posted here already?

2) Does her b,f+3 grab give +frames on block? The animation looks like the opponent gets staggered and she seems to recover fairly quickly. I haven't played any people yet to test if it indeed gives her +frames, so do any of you know? If it does then I hope that it can be used to give her some offensive momentum in block strings. If the opponents start ducking it then that should hopefully open up her low grab opportunities.

3) What are her wake-up specials that grant invincibility (if any)?

4) Finally, her b+2, 1+2, b,f+3 combo has been really inconsistent for me. The b,f+3 whiffs a lot no matter the range I start the combo. Any tips for this?

 

[Rickyraws]

Do any of you guys have footage of you testing her out/ playing matches with her? I picked her up as my main and now I'm 74-14 online. Some say that even according to the official guide she's low on the tier list estimation. I don't really care cause I love using her, but I don't think Ill be able to beat players of higher skill levels if I can't learn to do these moves you guys speak of. I guess the advantage to her being below average is that most people won't know how to deal with all her moves as they havent seen her online much right? Have any of you guys been using her online?