Match-up Discussion POST PATCH: Discussion Smokes new tier positioning

[hardwire]

low 3d12 starter would be horrible. That would mean that off of a jump in punch, it's essentially a guess as to whether to block high or low. I'm not sure if there's enough time for it to be fuzzy guarded well enough to not be imbalanced. Guarding that online would be actually impossible.

freddy quanchi kano kung lau liu kang

they can all do this

 

[Apock]

3d12 low starter would be broken. He need faster d2. :]

 

[G4S KT]

I think smoke originally had one more string that started with a low that was removed at the last second for balance issues...

He's the only character in the game without a single low hit anywhere in his strings.

 

[InstantClasSiik]

why

it would just make people finnaly have to duck us like we have to duck kano or kung wow heck even quan chi has a better low starter that ends with an over head

talk about retarted cheap i can not play a quan chi when im rolling on my back meds i can never remember ok down ok up.

I dont know if you noticed, but I liked/agreed with the low 3d12.

Im saying Smoke Bomb as a low would be too good, that would mean anywhere on screen the opponent just needs to crouch block the whole time or get combo'ed. This would take away dash blocking in (or atleast make it a little slower), and it would basically lock anyone down fullscreen who doesnt have a fast special (reptile, raiden, etc.). I'm telling you, Smoke bomb hitting low would not be a good thing in the end.

Would be nice for atleast one of his strings to hit low though, even if the damage scaling for combos goes up or you cant combo off of it at all, itd be atleast something to mix it up.

 

[InstantClasSiik]

I think smoke originally had one more string that started with a low that was removed at the last second for balance issues...

He's the only character in the game without a single low hit anywhere in his strings.

^This

I want a low hit

 

[kabelfritz]

i think he doesnt need a low hit, you can get creative and mix his strings up with throws. forward throw gives you a whiffed teleport everytime so you can keep up the pressure, backward throw gives a moment for invisibility

2 things need to be done with him:

- resets out
- faster uppecut

 

[G4S KT]

I mean, his d4 and sweep are both godlike but I just think it's strange that he has NO low hits at all.

3d12 can't start low, it would be broken. Similar to why nightwolf's f3 can't be a low hit.

My biggest issue with Smoke is his lack of string variety. When you're pressuring someone there is NO reason to use any other string other than 3d12. Every other string is completely inferior to 3d12 when you're pressuring someone. Maybe I'm just spoiled because 3d12 is so ridiculously good, but that makes it really predictable and my only other choices to change it up are unsafe (b23 and 214).

Maybe I've been playing Kabal too much recently, but being able to launch such a relentless assault is awesome. When you pressure with Kabal you can mix your shit up in so many ways. 11b4, b121, f32, and 212 are all amazing pressure strings.

I realize comparing Smoke and Kabal is like comparing apples to decorative autumn squash, but still. I want to be able to mix up Smoke's pressure.

 

[InstantClasSiik]

3d12 can't start low, it would be broken. Similar to why nightwolf's f3 can't be a low hit.

.

I agree with this, itd be stupid good if it started low. It would just be nice however to have ONE of Smoke's strings hit a low, even if its not combo able but can give enough advantage on hit to allow more pressure

 

[FrothyOmen]

make last hit of 112 hit low and stagger opponent for free jip. Sound agreeable?

 

[Apock]

make last hit of 112 hit low and stagger opponent for free jip. Sound agreeable?

11_2_ shoud be like Kabal F4. Stading positon.

 

[MKF30]

i still say make our 3 d1 2 a low starter

or make smoke bomb a true low hit

I can live with his juggle starter being low, that would definitely help him out. IMO as a Smoke player as my 3rd main, Smoke remains where he is or slightly moves down...he's mid tier, not top 10 lol. I wish he was, his OTG combos were nerfed in the last patch, and then you have the universal jip nerfs in the game. And being as how that was one of Smoke's ups. Plus he's not safe on bomb tosses against certain characters. I don't think the smoke bomb should hit low, but make it chip damage. Would it help him THAT much really? Some people may complain but hey, what does Smoke really have outside of his invisibility and fast teleport?

 

[MagicMan357]

Smoke really dosnt have any moves that would make sense to be a low, hes got the mind games and damage

hes fine

 

[kandehbar]

ok these are crazy ideas

***Faster D2
***Special/guard cancel ex smoke away/towards
***Smoke Bomb safe on block at any range

**A low start string
**Smoke away at the edge of the screen makes you appear at the other side
**Standing 1 becoming a 7 frame attack
**Ex invis gives damage boost

*Smoke bomb doing 1% chip
*Smokes B2-3 and B1-4 safe on block
*Guard Cancel teleport

Stars indicate what could be viable and resonable the lower the star the lower the priority

"Takes out flame sheild"

 

[kabelfritz]

has this become the "lets break a balanced character" thread?

 

[Tim Static]

Smoke is #1.

Hmmm?

 

[Apock]

ok these are crazy ideas

***Faster D2
***Special/guard cancel ex smoke away/towards
***Smoke Bomb safe on block at any range

**A low start string
**Smoke away at the edge of the screen makes you appear at the other side
**Standing 1 becoming a 7 frame attack
**Ex invis gives damage boost

*Smoke bomb doing 1% chip
*Smokes B2-3 and B1-4 safe on block
*Guard Cancel teleport

Stars indicate what could be viable and resonable the lower the star the lower the priority

"Takes out flame sheild"

***Faster D2 - <love>
***Special/guard cancel ex smoke away/towards - no need
***Smoke Bomb safe on block at any range - broken

**A low start string - broken
**Smoke away at the edge of the screen makes you appear at the other side - no need
**Standing 1 becoming a 7 frame attack - yep yep yep
**Ex invis gives damage boost - meh.

*Smoke bomb doing 1% chip - broken
*Smokes B2-3 and B1-4 safe on block- b23 is safe on block
*Guard Cancel teleport - OMG BROKEN SO MUCH. xD

 

[G4S KT]

ok these are crazy ideas

***Faster D2
***Special/guard cancel ex smoke away/towards
***Smoke Bomb safe on block at any range

**A low start string
**Smoke away at the edge of the screen makes you appear at the other side
**Standing 1 becoming a 7 frame attack
**Ex invis gives damage boost

*Smoke bomb doing 1% chip
*Smokes B2-3 and B1-4 safe on block
*Guard Cancel teleport

Stars indicate what could be viable and resonable the lower the star the lower the priority

"Takes out flame sheild"

God tier Smoke? I'm down, haha.

 

[kandehbar]

Smoke is #1.

Hmmm?

I wouldn't say number 1 since his normals are slow as molasses

 

[Verstande]

I dont know if you noticed, but I liked/agreed with the low 3d12.

Im saying Smoke Bomb as a low would be too good, that would mean anywhere on screen the opponent just needs to crouch block the whole time or get combo'ed. This would take away dash blocking in (or atleast make it a little slower), and it would basically lock anyone down fullscreen who doesnt have a fast special (reptile, raiden, etc.). I'm telling you, Smoke bomb hitting low would not be a good thing in the end.

Would be nice for atleast one of his strings to hit low though, even if the damage scaling for combos goes up or you cant combo off of it at all, itd be atleast something to mix it up.

This would be one of the stupidest ideas possible.
How would you like it if the only way to evade mileena's roll would be by crouching?
rain's waterball being a low?
subzeros iceball being a low?

I didn't think so.

 

[hardwire]

has this become the "lets break a balanced character" thread?

i dont think its so much of lets break a ballenced character as it is help us deal with the wtfunballenced guys

 

[hardwire]

This would be one of the stupidest ideas possible.
How would you like it if the only way to evade mileena's roll would be by crouching?
rain's waterball being a low?
subzeros iceball being a low?

I didn't think so.

if they didnt do chip i would be 100% ok with it.

if you havent noticed melina can down 4 into ball and it combos

 

[kabelfritz]

i dont think its so much of lets break a ballenced character as it is help us deal with the wtfunballenced guys

the game has a good balance after the last patch

 

[InstantClasSiik]

This would be one of the stupidest ideas possible.
How would you like it if the only way to evade mileena's roll would be by crouching?
rain's waterball being a low?
subzeros iceball being a low?

I didn't think so.

Thats what I was saying...? Reread

 

[TheJaquio]

I mean, his d4 and sweep are both godlike but I just think it's strange that he has NO low hits at all...(etc etc)

I don't think Cyrax has any lows in his strings either, but he doesn't need them, and EN Ragdoll hits low and is a great move anyways. That said, your post sums up my feelings on the issue.

Smoke has what can be considered the best overheads in the game, but with absolutely nothing that will make your opponent want to risk blocking low. Therefore, his mixup game is practically nonexistent; your opponent can stay on the defensive with relative ease because it's not like Smoke is going to do something unexpected. So, it'd be nice if Smoke had a low somewhere in one of his combos, even if it only leads to a knockdown. D4 pressure into B23 will only go so far, since B23 usually gets blocked and is also risky.

So considering all of that, I don't think giving him a sensible low should be out of the question. With his slow-ass normals and lack of either diverse or safe options, I don't think giving him some semblance of a mixup game would be uncalled for. If not, than at least speed up some of his normals.

 

[MKF30]

Smoke really dosnt have any moves that would make sense to be a low, hes got the mind games and damage

hes fine

Nah, he could use a low starter. His mind games are really only a factor when he's invisible, most Smoke players don't even utilize it...