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General/Other - Piercing Piercing Variation General Discussion

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
Premium Supporter
You're not reacting to a 14frame projectile, plain and simple. Know your ranges, which are 1. around poke range and 2. outside of the opponents jump arc.

Projectiles thrown in zone 1 are unreactable, only way you're getting hit here is on a read, projectiles in zone 2 are reactable but are safe from jump ins, most armor but can lose to teleports. The area between these two spaces are a fireball dead zone where your opponent can react and punish or begin their pressure because you don't have time to counter their attempt to get in.

As for low sai I use primarly to counter projectiles from full screen and to help keep opponents honest in neutral, with my ultimate goal being I want them to jump so I can AA with roll or punish armor attempts in.
I shouldn't have said react as that isn't what I meant, still half asleep lol. What I did mean is that if used too much an opponent can read/anticipate the next one and jump in, as you perfectly summed up with ranges and the dead zone.
 
You're not reacting to a 14frame projectile, plain and simple. Know your ranges, which are 1. around poke range and 2. outside of the opponents jump arc.

Projectiles thrown in zone 1 are unreactable, only way you're getting hit here is on a read, projectiles in zone 2 are reactable but are safe from jump ins, most armor but can lose to teleports. The area between these two spaces are a fireball dead zone where your opponent can react and punish or begin their pressure because you don't have time to counter their attempt to get in.
To be fair, it's only 14f if you use it point blank, but yeah I use it sometimes just outside of B1 range. Usually to fish for people walking around. Low Sai at Zone 1, as you put it, would likely be punished by many characters. (Standing sai would be safer there) But everything else I agree with.

There is definitely a risk, sure. And if I get predictable with them it's my own fault. It's not spammable, but there's something about having it that kind of completes her toolkit.
 

Nu-Skoool

Feel the nerf of despair
To be fair, it's only 14f if you use it point blank, but yeah I use it sometimes just outside of B1 range. Usually to fish for people walking around. Low Sai at Zone 1, as you put it, would likely be punished by many characters. (Standing sai would be safer there) But everything else I agree with.

There is definitely a risk, sure. And if I get predictable with them it's my own fault. It's not spammable, but there's something about having it that kind of completes her toolkit.
Just because its 14 frames of start up point blank, doesn't change its philosphy of use. You have to take in account of not only startup, but travel speed, human reactions, and prejump frames. By the time the opponent sees it will they be able to clear the ground in time? Chances are at these ranges, no they will not be able to.

Point is it's low projectile that has 11 less recovery frames than normal sai (because it doesn't control higher horizontal space as well) It's not meant to be used as your main projectile, that's what normal sai is for. It's meant to stop forward movement, but mostly it's to win projectiles trades in your favor, and guarentee chip. As I mentioned in another thread learning how to throw projectiles is a hard concept to learn, there's a lot of dynamics to it.
 
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MK2D

Have you had your MK today?
Essentially from your post ZeroEffect is asking why you would use Roll instead of Low Sai in some scenarios. This is because Low Sai hits the opponent low so the opponent has to crouch block to stop it hitting. The difference is that Roll hits mid so the opponent can block roll standing.

Any chance this could get patched to hit low, or more likely in the next game? It would be more interesting if it hit low. Watching the move hit I think it would make more sense if it did. Or, at the very least it would be cool if her EX Roll hit low.
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
Premium Supporter
Any chance this could get patched to hit low, or more likely in the next game? It would be more interesting if it hit low. Watching the move hit I think it would make more sense if it did. Or, at the very least it would be cool if her EX Roll hit low.
Visually it makes sense but in my opinion Roll shouldn't hit low in this game. A lot of people seem to think its fine as there is a lot of dirt in this game but Roll as a low and Ex Roll as an overhead is a bit much. If it was made a low I'm pretty sure TYM will explode not long after its done
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
Visually it makes sense but in my opinion Roll shouldn't hit low in this game. A lot of people seem to think its fine as there is a lot of dirt in this game but Roll as a low and Ex Roll as an overhead is a bit much. If it was made a low I'm pretty sure TYM will explode not long after its done
to be fair, tym already explodes after every patch.
 

Nu-Skoool

Feel the nerf of despair
Personally I'd like to see f2 become an overhead and f44 become a safe airtight string before a low roll.

Low roll would not only make all of her strings a mixup but it would be a scary neutral game tool. With something like that, opponents have to respect it when they're in that range. Yes it can be punished hard but consider how it slows their advance and let's Mileena control that space better.
 
Any chance this could get patched to hit low, or more likely in the next game? It would be more interesting if it hit low. Watching the move hit I think it would make more sense if it did. Or, at the very least it would be cool if her EX Roll hit low.
We get this suggestion a lot... If Roll was changed to hit low it would probably lose it's ability to combo after. That's usually how those types of moves work. Tanya Drill needs meter to get a combo, Sub/Reptile Slide get nothing, Erron Slide gets nothing, etc.
 

MK2D

Have you had your MK today?
Is F3 her only standing overhead? Not very familiar with her set yet but if so she could def. use a faster one.
 
So after playing Ethereal for a little while, I'm wondering if many of the issues with Piercing's B2,1,2+4 whiffing after long combos could be solved if they made B2 faster? It doesn't need to be as fast as B1,2 obviously, but if it came out faster, maybe it would hit the opponent high enough up that the rest connects.

It would also give her another fast-ish far range normal, as well as allowing her to hit it off of those near impossible run cancel combos, (ie: 1,2,3~Roll, B3,4~Air Sai~rc~B2,1,2+4) and boost her damage significantly. Thoughts?
 

MajinBerserker

My power equals yours!
So after playing Ethereal for a little while, I'm wondering if many of the issues with Piercing's B2,1,2+4 whiffing after long combos could be solved if they made B2 faster? It doesn't need to be as fast as B1,2 obviously, but if it came out faster, maybe it would hit the opponent high enough up that the rest connects.

It would also give her another fast-ish far range normal, as well as allowing her to hit it off of those near impossible run cancel combos, (ie: 1,2,3~Roll, B3,4~Air Sai~rc~B2,1,2+4) and boost her damage significantly. Thoughts?
Who knows if it will happen, but definitely. Shave a few frames off of its start up and she'd be golden. Most likely improve combo consistency and her neutral game.
 
Who knows if it will happen, but definitely. Shave a few frames off of its start up and she'd be golden. Most likely improve combo consistency and her neutral game.
Well, it can't hurt to discuss. People have said before this variation has issues with that ender. I think this could help, unless the 2nd hit of b21,2+4 is programmed to whiff due to the extra gravity after landing too many juggles. I also think at this point, a slightly faster TK could help her combos across the board. Specifically in air-to-air hits.
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
Premium Supporter
So after playing Ethereal for a little while, I'm wondering if many of the issues with Piercing's B2,1,2+4 whiffing after long combos could be solved if they made B2 faster? It doesn't need to be as fast as B1,2 obviously, but if it came out faster, maybe it would hit the opponent high enough up that the rest connects.

It would also give her another fast-ish far range normal, as well as allowing her to hit it off of those near impossible run cancel combos, (ie: 1,2,3~Roll, B3,4~Air Sai~rc~B2,1,2+4) and boost her damage significantly. Thoughts?
This has been a personal wish of mine for quite some time. Having B2 faster would be good for neutral for range plus it makes B21 another string to use outside of combos. In regards to the combos where it whiffs, a faster B2 and/or bigger hitbox on 1 in B21 would solve the problems. As for the run cancel combo you posted do you have trouble landing them?
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
Premium Supporter
I find to land them consistently the run cancel has to be done instantaneously. So after B34 you do a run cancel and if you see Mileena taking two steps or more before doing B2 then the cancel was not quick enough. I know its not the greatest visual aid but it was the best way to help me do the combos more consistently.
 

Nu-Skoool

Feel the nerf of despair
What I've noticed about a successful b2 after b34 is mostly about getting b3 to connect at the sweet spot, which is right as the opponent begins to fall after roll. This causes air sai to hit meaty and create a larger juggle window.

To a lesser extent delaying the timing of air sai after 4 can also help if your b34 was late after roll.
 
What I've noticed about a successful b2 after b34 is mostly about getting b3 to connect at the sweet spot, which is right as the opponent begins to fall after roll. This causes air sai to hit meaty and create a larger juggle window.

To a lesser extent delaying the timing of air sai after 4 can also help if your b34 was late after roll.
Yeah, I get that it's possible, but goddamn, lol. If I was competing in a tournament I'd have to not even bother as it'd be too inconsistent for me to bank on. And there's some good damage there for hitting it. A faster B2, (and likewise a faster telekick for other combos) would make this much more doable.
 

Nu-Skoool

Feel the nerf of despair
@ZeroEffect honestly while the juggle is not automatic its more than possible with practice. I know I use a lot of usf4 examples but it's no different than Yun genei jin combos. Just takes practice.
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
Premium Supporter
Yeah, I get that it's possible, but goddamn, lol. If I was competing in a tournament I'd have to not even bother as it'd be too inconsistent for me to bank on. And there's some good damage there for hitting it. A faster B2, (and likewise a faster telekick for other combos) would make this much more doable.
I'll admit it took me a few hours at a time for a few days for me to get it down consistently but to me it's worth it for the damage you get off it. If you are willing to practice it enough you will get it eventually.
 
@ZeroEffect honestly while the juggle is not automatic its more than possible with practice. I know I use a lot of usf4 examples but it's no different than Yun genei jin combos. Just takes practice.
I'll admit it took me a few hours at a time for a few days for me to get it down consistently but to me it's worth it for the damage you get off it. If you are willing to practice it enough you will get it eventually.
I'll give you guys the practice thing, and I have hit it once or twice before on certain characters. Again though, that's not the only reason I think a faster B2 would help her. But it would be a bonus.