Petition to let custom variation in competitive play MK11

[Cashual]

Ok, I see the majority here disagree. I'm gonna explain myself one more time and then leave it.
NRS wants to restrict custom variations fron competitive play withing the game. I say they leave the option for the custom variation to be available for competitive play and if it doesn't turn out viable, the community or tournament organizers can ban them and turn to preset variations, which will be in the game regardless. I'm advocating for the custom variation as an available option, not as obligatory.

Everyone understands what you’re advocating, it’s simply that you’re in the minority to feel that way.

The beauty is that you can play personally anyway you want to. Hell, you could carve a niche for yourself and host online or in person events for custom variation tournaments like some other players did for Injustice 2.

NRS included custom variations (it seems to me) in order to create novelty and replay ability for the massive, and I mean MASSIVE, casual audience of which 99% of the player base is comprised of.

It’s meant to enhance the single player experience (most people that but MK11 will beat the story, fight the AI, and maybe dabble online a little).

I find the balance argument interesting with people suggesting that this would actually make balancing easier due to the fact you can make moves take more slots. I can’t refute that, it’s an interesting take. However, from a player perspective, it makes the matchup grind arbitrarily so much more difficult. I don’t want to lose to, or watch other people lose to, novel shenanigans.

I personally enjoy the meta of fighting games: “I know what you can do, you know what I can do, let the mind games begin. Let he with the execution, reactions, creativity and matchup knowledge win”.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Everyone understands what you’re advocating, it’s simply that you’re in the minority to feel that way.

The beauty is that you can play personally anyway you want to. Hell, you could carve a niche for yourself and host online or in person events for custom variation tournaments like some other players did for Injustice 2.

NRS included custom variations (it seems to me) in order to create novelty and replay ability for the massive, and I mean MASSIVE, casual audience of which 99% of the player base is comprised of.

It’s meant to enhance the single player experience (most people that but MK11 will beat the story, fight the AI, and maybe dabble online a little).

I find the balance argument interesting with people suggesting that this would actually make balancing easier due to the fact you can make moves take more slots. I can’t refute that, it’s an interesting take. However, from a player perspective, it makes the matchup grind arbitrarily so much more difficult. I don’t want to lose to, or watch other people lose to, novel shenanigans.

I personally enjoy the meta of fighting games: “I know what you can do, you know what I can do, let the mind games begin. Let he with the execution, reactions, creativity and matchup knowledge win”.

Dude, there's literally nothing to lose and only possible to gain. Meh, whatever. I'm saying they should be available, but you can always restrict or ban them afterwards if needed. Once the game comes out and the custom variations turn out to be viable competitively, but aren't possible to use, people are gonna bite their elbows.

 

[villainous monk]

I don't think it's a great idea. I did hear some really good arguments for it I'll say that, but I still think it's a bad idea.

I'm more worried that if NRS makes 3 base variations and you have the options to have 1 custum variation your now dealing with all the issues in MKXL and I2 again. Those things we voiced and complained about that seemed to be every where.

Imagine having over half the tourney matches picking custom variations going "hum & ahh" choosing which and what before even the button check. That's taking vital time off the clock for TO's and other players.

The time inbetween matches once a player lost a match in a first to 3. Then rinse & repeat again... Nah.

All the counter picking also both players using the same custom moves that might already be available in a set variation. There's tons more to consider.

I don't think it's a good idea. Not without a lack of trying though. Kiddos to @Law Hero for great post for example.

If I was in NRS I would be watching the thread because some posts ALMOST changed my mind.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

I feel like the majority of people here who want custom variations for a tournament have never competed in one themselves.

VERY MUCH THIS!

HELL, Max don't even compete his damn self. Everybody needs to calm their fucking tit bags because the game has not even come out! So how do you know what the preset variations are going to be and if they aren't gonna be "creative" or exciting enough? It's good to have variety and customization BUT you're suffocating the game before it even gets a day to breath to even DEMAND ANYTHING!

This thread is baffling to say the least.

 

[Cashual]

They could make the moves selectable at the character select screen via a check box sub menu after you have chosen your fighter. You get 3 points. More powerful moves take up more points to limit mixing and matching the most powerful sets of moves together. Just call this variation simply "Custom". If it turns out that a move is too strong, make it worth more points via a patch. The first bit of what I described is already in the game via the customization menus. They devs can simplify what I just described for quickly selecting moves during character selection.

Either they do that or we will just end up with a bunch of cool moves in the game that will never be used just like Injustice 2.

I'm still fine with set variations too but this is how they could solve the issue.

That’s the thing though, there aren’t cool moves in injustice 2 that are just never used. They’re used a ton....by the much, much larger casual player base who mostly play towers and casual games online with gear, stats and abilities enabled.

It’s cool that we get both. I love that the devs can be like: “wouldn’t it be fucking cool if captain cold could like build platforms he could jump on and stuff?!” And explore these amazing, imaginative gameplay ideas that we in turn can fuck around with without in turn making them game a total mess of nonsense.

Do we really want a character that can rewind time and undo some favorable postion and work that you’ve done with db3 or whatever?

I don’t know. I don’t get the argument “but there’s all these cool moves we can’t use” because it’s not true and to me they’re a cool bonus, not a cruel tease.

 

[Cashual]

But the clone was a separate move, it was only available in one variation? So how can it not have been balanced?

If we're talking ice ball or slide, then that's different, they're common across all of them. You buff the slide and it may totally throw out the other variations even though you're trying to fix unbreakable. But i don't see how clone, being a move only in one variation, was unable to be balanced in MKX given it's uniqueness in the variations?

I think the argument is that sub zeros base moves and normals and core specials had to be not very good so that klone and GM wouldn’t be stupidly OP, this crippling the variations without klone into irrelevance.

That’s what he meant I think, that’s not my argument to clarify.

 

[NothingPersonal]

That’s the thing though, there aren’t cool moves in injustice 2 that are just never used. They’re used a ton....by the much, much larger casual player base who mostly play towers and casual games online with gear, stats and abilities enabled.

It’s cool that we get both. I love that the devs can be like: “wouldn’t it be fucking cool if captain cold could like build platforms he could jump on and stuff?!” And explore these amazing, imaginative gameplay ideas that we in turn can fuck around with without in turn making them game a total mess of nonsense.

Do we really want a character that can rewind time and undo some favorable postion and work that you’ve done with db3 or whatever?

I don’t know. I don’t get the argument “but there’s all these cool moves we can’t use” because it’s not true and to me they’re a cool bonus, not a cruel tease.

Don't you think it'll resonate more with the casuals if they see said cool moves used in tournamet play?
Also rewinding time takes 3 slots of Geras' custom specials I believe, so it's possible this special won't even be viable at all lol.

 

[greedface]

Custom variations being hard to balance because of the possible combinations is like saying all 3v3 fighters should be 1v1 because of possible broken combinations. The difference is, in MK11 they won't have to nerf an entire character to fix a certain combination. Instead nerf the properties or the slot requirement of the move.

And saying the moves are cheap gimmicky moves meant for casual play. Lol, those same move will be included in the variations. So good luck avoiding Geras mains timer scamming you.

The time it takes to pick moves won't take more time than picking 3v3 teams in other games, unless the UI sucks.

 

[villainous monk]

Ok, I see the majority here disagree. I'm gonna explain myself one more time and then leave it.
NRS wants to restrict custom variations fron competitive play withing the game. I say they leave the option for the custom variation to be available for competitive play and if it doesn't turn out viable, the community or tournament organizers can ban them and turn to preset variations, which will be in the game regardless. I'm advocating for the custom variation as an available option, not as obligatory.

Seriously. Not without a lack in trying and really putting this idea forward. You made very good arguments. I honestly CAN see NRS doing something like this.

I just don't think it's a good idea for competitive play... Yet.

Great thread.

 

[Cashual]

I wouldn't, but I'd have the same advantage though In Injustice you can see the selected augments on the loading screen. They could do the same for MK11.

Can you see though how it would be frustrating for the people that actually will?

I’m not really a fan of people making suggestions for rules/changes that will never affect them.

Just because you think it will be more “hype” to watch, doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be miserable for people that devote a lot to the game and scene who travel and do spend money to compete.

I think it’s interesting that people have so much faith in NRS being able to balance the equivalent of over 100 characters given how vocally critical many people have been here about that very same issue.

In fact I wish NRS limited it to one variation and maybe added a few /several more unique characters instead.

I think NRS should’ve been very clear and transparent from the get go that custom variations were never intended to be involved competitively that they were purely for fun. That way at least, people wouldn’t be disappointed or feel misled.

 

[liljay273]

Now that I think about it Marvel had some OD team combinations. I doubt Sub-Zero's Ice barrage is gonna turn the tide as much as assist characters do.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Seriously. Not without a lack in trying and really putting this idea forward. You made very good arguments. I honestly CAN see NRS doing something like this.

I just don't think it's a good idea for competitive play... Yet.

Great thread.

Of course you can't, no one can because, you know, the game's not out yet . But if they decide to scrap it all together, we could never find out how it'd turn out competitively.

 

[Cashual]

I

You can put some work into balancing it, for example if you find a frame advantage number or a launch distance that makes other synergies possible but kills that one you can do that. Or you can debuff some frame data but compensate buffing other part (increase startup but decrease disadvantage on block for example) so the move is still good.

Like....I hear you man...but look at the rabbit hole here. It’s much more complex than many are presenting it. The other guy had a perfectly good point. Even with the pretty good idea of simply deciding that a certain move should now be 2 or 3 slots, you may have just crippled another custom variation that wasn’t OP. So then maybe let’s say NRS can conditionally make moves cost more slots but only when paired with a certain other move. Maybe that’s the solution.

But, your suggestion of altering frame data will undoubtedly have unintended ripple effects that will impact other variations.

All this is to say that this could really turn into a balancing nightmare and could detract from the game.

I wish people would just be grateful to have the opportunity to fuck around with these theoretical versions of iconic characters in a non competitive setting.

As for the 3v3 games with customizable assists: for the most part those games are pretty fucking broken and are not at all examples of extremely well balanced games. The character variety is limited and there are the agreed upon definitive team pairings and very few players are successful outside of those combinations and to me that’s anti-hype.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Nothingpersonal needs to be banned. This guy is a super casual.

Custom variations would be the death of competitive play.

 

[Cashual]

Don't you think it'll resonate more with the casuals if they see said cool moves used in tournamet play?
Also rewinding time takes 3 slots of Geras' custom specials I believe, so it's possible this special won't even be viable at all lol.

Millions of people are going to buy this game and the vast, vast majority of them have no clue that a competitive scene even exists.

This game is not going to sell on the backs of tournament views. NRS games don’t break 20k viewers really ever even at stacked majors. EVO probably, but otherwise?

Again, this is simply overestimating the reach of the competitive tournament scene. Mortal Kombat is a huge IP with tons of casual fans.

Anyone who enjoys the game and delves into it enough to begin to understand the game competitively and follow it will find it plenty hype with the moves included. It’s not like we are talking about scorpion with his spear move or not. There’s tons to appeal to casuals in fatal blows, brutalities, fatalities, Krushing blows, elaborate story mode and the most developed single player content of any FG.

And clearly my point about Geras was just a random example, I have no idea whether that’s move is any good at all, my point is simply that it’s amazing to play these games in a time where devs can do really cool imaginative shit for us without having to limit themselves with regards to how it could fuck up the game competitively.

I feel very certain that the majority of competitive players don’t want this and if they do now, that they wouldn’t after losing in a major they flew to because of some bullshit lol

 

[liljay273]

I


Like....I hear you man...but look at the rabbit hole here. It’s much more complex than many are presenting it. The other guy had a perfectly good point. Even with the pretty good idea of simply deciding that a certain move should now be 2 or 3 slots, you may have just crippled another custom variation that wasn’t OP. So then maybe let’s say NRS can conditionally make moves cost more slots but only when paired with a certain other move. Maybe that’s the solution.

But, your suggestion of altering frame data will undoubtedly have unintended ripple effects that will impact other variations.

All this is to say that this could really turn into a balancing nightmare and could detract from the game.

I wish people would just be grateful to have the opportunity to fuck around with these theoretical versions of iconic characters in a non competitive setting.

As for the 3v3 games with customizable assists: for the most part those games are pretty fucking broken and are not at all examples of extremely well balanced games. The character variety is limited and there are the agreed upon definitive team pairings and very few players are successful outside of those combinations and to me that’s anti-hype.

I mean it might be anti-hype to you but a old marvel 2 tourney still gets more views than a NRS game and Marvel 3 was popular while it was around. Communities of the past had no problem making scenes around busted games. I'm not saying we should let the create a variation rock but maybe it could spice up the scene and bring more eyes to it instead of it dying so quickly.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Millions of people are going to buy this game and the vast, vast majority of them have no clue that a competitive scene even exists.

This game is not going to sell on the backs of tournament views. NRS games don’t break 20k viewers really ever even at stacked majors. EVO probably, but otherwise?

Again, this is simply overestimating the reach of the competitive tournament scene. Mortal Kombat is a huge IP with tons of casual fans.

Anyone who enjoys the game and delves into it enough to begin to understand the game competitively and follow it will find it plenty hype with the moves included. It’s not like we are talking about scorpion with his spear move or not. There’s tons to appeal to casuals in fatal blows, brutalities, fatalities, Krushing blows, elaborate story mode and the most developed single player content of any FG.

And clearly my point about Geras was just a random example, I have no idea whether that’s move is any good at all, my point is simply that it’s amazing to play these games in a time where devs can do really cool imaginative shit for us without having to limit themselves with regards to how it could fuck up the game competitively.

I feel very certain that the majority of competitive players don’t want this and if they do now, that they wouldn’t after losing in a major they flew to because of some bullshit lol

Dude, I'm just advocating for it to be a possibility, not as a standard. If it doesn't work, we have presets. Nothing to lose.

 

[Cashual]

Of course you can't, no one can because, you know, the game's not out yet . But if they decide to scrap it all together, we could never find out how it'd turn out competitively.

Of course we can.....get a YouTube channel and a twitch and host weekly events featuring custom characters and let’s see what happens.

I would love to see something like that happening alongside of a more conventional competitive scene.

Hell, maybe it takes off and becomes the new tournament standard. But I don’t want the first 3 months of the games competitive life to be a joke and disaster while we try this experiment.

Smash has outlawed all kinds of casual elements in their games for competitive play and yet there are still a ton of people that played and play those games with all the craziness still intact.

There’s room for a competitive scene and a robust casual, just for fun, let’s see what whacky shot we can do community as well.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Dude, I'm just advocating for it to be a possibility, not as a standard. If it doesn't work, we have presets. Nothing to lose.

It shouldn't even be an option. None. Period. None of the top NRS players want this.

 

[Cashual]

Dude, I'm just advocating for it to be a possibility, not as a standard. If it doesn't work, we have presets. Nothing to lose.

That’s where you’re wrong! YOU have nothing to lose. People who play competitively and travel and devote a lot of themselves to provide hours of entertainment for everyone else mostly for free have a ton to lose.

 

[NothingPersonal]

It shouldn't even be an option. None. Period. None of the top NRS players want this.

That’s where you’re wrong! YOU have nothing to lose. People who play competitively and travel and devote a lot of themselves to provide hours of entertainment for everyone else mostly for free have a ton to lose.

You can always restrict or ban it if it's there and don't want it. If it's not there, you can't even try it out. Which NRS seems to opt for.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

You can always restrict or ban it if it's there and don't want it. If it's not there, you can't even try it out. Which NRS seems to opt for.

Because NRS knows better and knows wtf they're doing.

 

[Cashual]

I mean it might be anti-hype to you but a old marvel 2 tourney still gets more views than a NRS game and Marvel 3 was popular while it was around. Communities of the past had no problem making scenes around busted games. I'm not saying we should let the create a variation rock but maybe it could spice up the scene and bring more eyes to it instead of it dying so quickly.

I’m only stating my opinion of course, but I think making the game more lopsided, busted etc. is the absolute wrong way to spice the game up and bring more eyes.

I’d love to see it grow because it’s an amazing, fun, balanced, rewarding, and challenging game.

The thing is, these NRS games do phenomenally commercially! Like....close to best selling and definitely outsell these other games you’re referencing. So, it’s not really true that NRS is in a spot where they have to make their games whackier to sell. Hell, they have more to gain when these games fizzle out 2-3 years later and then drop another and sell another 8 million copies of the next iteration. I’m not saying NRS is doing that I’m some nefarious way, btw.

I would love to see MK11 enjoy a long competitive life but imo, the way to achieve that is to create an amazing game that appeals to an international audience and “serious” players from around the world. To see some heavyweight SF, Tekken, Anime players get on board because the game is so good is what I’d rather see.

Edit: got on a tangent but my point was that NRS doesn’t give a fuck of Marvel 3 has more eyeballs during EVO as long as they’re still selling 3-4x more games. The whole “ooooh SF got 50k and MK got 16k lul game sucks” thing is purely a dumb dick measuring contest. I’m fine if NRS are always a niche in the competitive fgc. Hell the fgc itself is a totally niche community. So from a twitch viewer perspective all fg are irrelevant.

 

[Cashual]

You can always restrict or ban it if it's there and don't want it. If it's not there, you can't even try it out. Which NRS seems to opt for.

Again....how many tournaments do we allow it for? How do we decide if it’s successful or not?

It IS there. Why are you ignoring my suggestion? Everyone is free to play how they’d like online, at locals, with friends, etc. in this day with amazing netcode and pretty legit online tournaments, and the reach of streaming, someone (you? Destroyer? Pig? Reo?) could create a competitive series based around custom variations.

Why are you, someone admittedly that does not and will not travel or play competitively, get to make the rules?

 

[NothingPersonal]

...someone admittedly that does not and will not travel or play competitively...

And how do you know that?