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Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

Do you think NRS patching strategy is much better this time?

  • Yes

    Votes: 74 60.2%
  • No

    Votes: 36 29.3%
  • In between overeall

    Votes: 13 10.6%

  • Total voters
    123

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I wasn't attacking you btw or saying you were wrong that front, I was just saying that so many people say so many wrong things about Capcom games on here that I was tired of it. If it was factual, it'd be one thing.

Super Street Fighter IV had new mechanics, a ton of new characters, and other things to boot hence it's price tag and disk release.

Arcade Edition was 15 bucks if you had Super, for 4 characters. I mean, you have to buy them to lab up against them anyway when it comes to DLC, so there really isn't any harm done there.

AE V. 2012 was free and was played for two years.

USFIV: 15 bucks, five new characters, new mechanics. All current patches (It's on 1.06 on anything not PS4 I think) have been free. The patches are released every so often, a couple of months to half a year.

You were not required to buy anything but Super in order to upgrade to Ultra.

So, I never quite understood the whole 40 dollars for a balance patch per year argument. If we're talking Arc Sys games, I say that I think they need to realize two new characters, some balance changes, added system mechanics and a new story does not equate to 40 dollars a year after your last game was released. Anime community is a conundrum.
Not to derail the talk, but I HATE the direction SFIV went in. Look at their new characters. They were all just awful from a want to play as them perspective.

MK's new characters have that want to play them appeal. MKX has Kotal Khan. SFIV has Rufus. Who the he!! is designing the new characters for Capcom?

I could go on naming all of the new SFIV characters, but they are all stupid - so I'm not gonna waste my time.
 
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CoviellotheGreat

Online is trash and dumb to play.
NRS keeps falling into the same pitfalls the led to the short lifespans of MK9 and Injustass, which are piss-poor netcode, and way too many balance patches. I think it's too late for MKX, CEO top 8 was a snoozefest, and people are quitting because NRS thought it would be good to have 2 patches in 9 days.
 

RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
I forgot Yung Bacon was impostor.

But again, my point was he already made top 8, he already made his tournament debut.
He was in top 16 before at Toryuken and I believe another tournament right after.

It's just that version, the buffed one, made it's debut at CEO.
 

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
Shinnok's MB Hellsparks being +24 on block wasn't "too good" until he got the other buffs. Or rather, if that was the only buff he got, it would be fine. That buff itself wasn't a mistake, it was just made too good by the other buffs he got.
Shinnok community, which I was a part of pre(+24)patch, put so much effort founding tech. We had ex amulet pressure, working mixups from tricky portals and mimicry. A time were actually everything could be put to use (even devil flick cancels had a point back then)

Then comes the biggest amount of plus frames to the easier move to connect and MB ever, throwing anything out the window.

The rest of the buffs till this day were needed (the B3 is incredibly fair), but +24 alone was bullshit and made Shinnok a simpleton the moment he acquired a bar.
 

funkdoc

Apprentice
re: slips, rev0lver et al.

the problem i have with the approach you want is that it is inherently going to remove diversity from the game. not all types of tools will be equally powerful in a given game, and certain ones will naturally be "OP". you can butcher the character in other ways to keep the "broken" stuff. heck, i believe you can even design a character around an infinite if you really want to, as there are cases of characters with infinites only being mid-tier or worse (e.g. hugo in SF3 2nd impact, bob wilson in real bout fatal fury 2).

having 1-2 characters with an infinite or other 100% combo adds a whole new dynamic to a game that has no other such cases, and makes the game more exciting for many; look at bison & deejay in super turbo for "balanced" examples from a great game. the same goes for DBZ teleports or instant air fireballs or any number of other things. the problem comes when you see these things in a million matches every tournament...even umvc3 morrigan was considered cool at first, until she won everything and her act got overexposed.

i would argue that having a bunch of different characters with different broken stuff is the most effective solution, at least from a viewers'/general popularity perspective. always putting something wacky and fun on the screen, without letting anyone get too much shine. this doesn't have to dumb down serious tournament play either, judging from the many games i always use as examples in these discussions. sure, mid/low tier get left way behind this way, but at high level that doesn't make as much of a difference as you think. why?

because the higher-level the play is, the more important small differences are. people here seem to think that if mid-tier were closer to top-tier, a bunch of top players would play them. i don't buy that at all, and for evidence i point to the history of basically any other competitive game out there: as the quality of play improves, the gaps get smaller but remain as important as before.

put it to you this way: in baseball, a 5% difference in batting average can be the difference between a solid major-leaguer and a guy struggling to stay in the majors. has there EVER been a fighting game where the difference between the best character and the average is 5%? that's what yall here seem to want, but even if you do achieve it...the top players will be better by then and still not want to eat that disadvantage. 5% is HUGE at a top level, and i don't even know if *that* level of balance is possible in our games.

this is why i would argue that fighting games are best enjoyed as hulk hogan vs. the ultimate warrior, not CM punk vs. daniel bryan
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
re: slips, rev0lver et al.

the problem i have with the approach you want is that it is inherently going to remove diversity from the game.
I highly disagree with this. The point is to actually campaign *for* diversity. But diversity starts at the character level, not the cast level. If you have a character that's abusing 1 overpowered tool to the exclusion of all others, and there aren't robust methods for counteracting it, their gameplay becomes less diverse, not more.

If all people have to do is one thing, that's exactly what they'll do. And at a high level in tournaments, you will start to see lots and lots of that one thing.

When you have a slate of characters with different archetypes, that also make use of a balanced set of different tools, all kinds of possibilities unfold and the game becomes a beautiful tapestry of offensive and defensive options.

I'd rather see and play against players' choices than just the overwhelmingness of a given tool. That's not diversity at all.
 

funkdoc

Apprentice
I highly disagree with this. The point is to actually campaign *for* diversity. But diversity starts at the character level, not the cast level. If you have a character that's abusing 1 overpowered tool to the exclusion of all others, and there aren't robust methods for counteracting it, their gameplay becomes less diverse, not more.
if you do this right, some characters WILL have robust methods for counteracting it via their own wacky BS. you just need to put in more stuff that's as good as DBZ teleports in its own way.

this argument is essentially tantamout to one you see a lot in higher education: "well-rounded student" vs. "well-rounded class". i am a strong believer in the "well-rounded class" approach for FGs because they're more strategically linear than a lot of other competitive games anyway; virtually every good character has exactly one optimal way to play them at the highest level. MvC2 storm is about the only top-tier i can think of who defies this rule. so i like to see a bunch of characters who live off of one crazy powerful thing, as long as they're different and interesting ones. modern developers could stand to come up with a lot more moves that give you a bunch of options, that would help a lot.

When you have a slate of characters with different archetypes, that also make use of a balanced set of different tools, all kinds of possibilities unfold and the game becomes a beautiful tapestry of offensive and defensive options.
this hasn't happened with NRS games thus far, honestly. as i've said before, injustice got a terrible rep with viewers due to the blandness of its top tier both before and after the post-evo patch. that game strikes me as such wasted potential...you had some amazing designs like sinestro & zatanna, and they didn't do a whole lot in major top 8s relative to the usual suspects.

MKX is already showing similar signs. one of the people i chatted with about this whole issue said it looks to him like the top tiers in MKX play largely the same, and that sort of thing will be a MAJOR turn-off as time goes on. that is the problem with wanting well-rounded characters and nerfing unique powerful tools - the cast appears more homogenized to those not familiar with the game (see the "everybody has a fireball and a teleport" canard), and your appeal outside the core scene suffers for it. how do i know this?

look at soul calibur. that's been a very similar community to this one in terms of game design tastes, and that series has arguably the worst history as a spectator game. even SC2, usually considered the pinnacle of that franchise, was met with crickets both years it was in evo. SC2 is a very defensive, fundamentals-heavy game with the most basic-looking combos you'll ever see in a top 8...basically m2dave's dream 3D game. and guess what? the only thing i can remember popping the crowd in either of those top 8s was aris doing a mario entrance then destroying his opponent with wacky voldo stance gimmicks - that was about the only thing that broke the "turtling/spacing/poking" mold of that game. if you actually play SC2, you can appreciate the differences in the cast...but to the untrained eye, xianghua/sophie/cassie are all playing the same game. that is where the balancing philosophy you advocate can easily end up.

and SC4, i would argue, was a game badly hurt by its community even if it was never great regardless. it had the first 3D character with good fireballs, and a character who could knock you out of the ring in one combo but was supposed to give up a lot to go for this. the former was top-tier but clearly not #1, yet he was banned pretty early because he "broke the rules of the game" (hmmmmmmm). the latter became godly thanks to an exploit with the game's button binding, and guess what? this broken character garnered far bigger reactions from the evo crowd than SC2 ever did. SC4 shared a lot of 2's core game, at least on the surface, and this character was the villain it needed to add some spice to it. so of course after evo the community proceeds to ban the character instead of the button bindings that made her that insane, leaving us with the blandest possible "fundamentals" character as arguably the best. that was the end of any non-SC players ever caring about that game, and i believe not banning characters would have extended its lifespan.

I'd rather see and play against players' choices than just the overwhelmingness of a given tool. That's not diversity at all.
give me the unstoppable force vs. the immovable object any day. most viewers don't see players' choices, even if they play other games competitively. something i've realized over the years is that people want fundamentals in games they play, but just want to see a bunch of crazy shit from games they don't play.

the biggest reason i've been so interested in NRS is that they're willing to run with a lot of unique character design concepts that would scare off almost any japanese developer. i already mentioned a couple examples from injustice, but there's also the likes of sun/blood god kotal, spectral ermac, drone/demo sonya, et al. heck, i'd even consider fisticuffs cage an example since people are afraid of making characters who look that "spammy". however, i am starting to get fed up with how weak these characters usually tend to be and how boring the top characters are. i truly believe this problem is in part a function of the balancing philosophy, though obviously a lot of it is NRS not having a ton of experience and testing new stuff so much. we've seen how this community reacts to ~breaking the rules of the game~, and that is going to hurt characters who break the mold.
 

d3v

SRK
Well at least Capcom won't be copying NRS for SFV.
Head to 39 minutes into the interview where somene directly references MKX's excessive patches (without actually mentioning the game).

To quote Combofiend.
Players need time to explore the game. And you know the meta constantly changes, something that might be overpowered at the beginning, may not be overpowered two weeks later or three weeks later, when people figure out a counter.
Don't expect patches unless there's something that's urgent that needs to be fixed.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Well, I, for one, don't find current MKX patches to be excessive. Do you guys seriously think we needed a few months more to play with -9000 on everything for Kenshi and Kitana, 5f mid for Raiden and so on? They specifically said that urgent stuff needs to be fixed. Well, sometimes entire game is in urgent need :p

I am not conveinced that NRS are ruining anything right now, and although I don't agree with the way some issues were addressed, they had to be addressed.

By the way, you guys should really read post above by @funkdoc
 
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buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Well, I, for one, don't find current MKX patches to be excessive. Do you guys seriously think we needed a few months more to play with -9000 on everything for Kenshi and Kitana, 5f mid for Raiden and so on? They specifically said that urgent stuff needs to be fixed. Well, sometimes entire game is in urgent need :p

I am not conveinced that NRS are ruining anything right now, and although I don't agree with the way some issues were addressed, they had to be addressed.

By the way, you guys should really read post above by @funkdoc
Which is why I always ask "why be ok with patches when shit like that doesn't ever have to be in the game." Kenshi and Kitana got some stuff I seen asked for within a month of play. The 6f mid on Raiden was only bad in TG but they nerfed it throughout the character. There is more to this than just "Patches fix NRS games".
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Which is why I always ask "why be ok with patches when shit like that doesn't ever have to be in the game." Kenshi and Kitana got some stuff I seen asked for within a month of play. The 6f mid on Raiden was only bad in TG but they nerfed it throughout the character. There is more to this than just "Patches fix NRS games".
I guess it's a matter of net gain/loss. Sure, Raiden's f1 was strange way to handle it, but it's better now that there is non-TG f12b2, Kenshi and Kitana needed what they got IMO and it's nice to see 2 more characters being more viable and even good.
Like I said, I don't agree with everything NRS have done (last round: balancing TG Raiden around powerful corner game for half a year almost, and then killing said corner game), but saying that I'm not okay with patching would be saying that keeping vanilla for these months/forever would be better, which I disagree with.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I guess it's a matter of net gain/loss. Sure, Raiden's f1 was strange way to handle it, but it's better now that there is non-TG f12b2, Kenshi and Kitana needed what they got IMO and it's nice to see 2 more characters being more viable and even good.
Like I said, I don't agree with everything NRS have done (last round: balancing TG Raiden around powerful corner game for half a year almost, and then killing said corner game), but saying that I'm not okay with patching would be saying that keeping vanilla for these months/forever would be better, which I disagree with.
Definitely the patches help but that's only cause of the crazy process it's a part of. kenshi and kitana needed that. But what they needed was like 10+ changes within a month lol. Nerfing f1 (probably incorrectly) only to try and correct it by adding more stuff to it. So the patches tend to help but it gets a little mruky in the middle. But nothing we can personally do about it. I wouldn't want vanilla MKx either but I'd want vanilla MKx to be better than what we got lol.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Sincere question, is anyone even going to bother with the 4th and 5th game created by this company? I sure as hell am not going to sans massive improvements. Make a good netcode, stop releasing the fucking games in beta, stop the knee jerk dumbass patching, hot fix patching because NRS are incompetent durptards, etc.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Sincere question, is anyone even going to bother with the 4th and 5th game created by this company? I sure as hell am not going to sans massive improvements. Make a good netcode, stop releasing the fucking games in beta, stop the knee jerk dumbass patching, hot fix patching because NRS are incompetent durptards, etc.
Works for me so far. Most of problems you cited can be solved by just buying the game later when everything is sorted out and your decision will be more informed than it would be at release or before (duh).
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Works for me so far. Most of problems you cited can be solved by just buying the game later when everything is sorted out and your decision will be more informed than it would be at release or before (duh).
How well did that work out for MK9 and Injustice? Not well at all. Here's how NRS tends to operate. I think it's fair for me to make this assessment as this is the 3rd time that I've seen their pattern.

Step 1. Rush game at release with shit netcode and bugs/glitches/block infinites galore
Step 2. Kneejerk patching and beta fixes
Step 3. Releases DLC
Step 4. Kneejerk patching/hotfix failure resolves
Step 5. More kneejerk patching/hotfix failure resolves
Step 6. 'Finalized' game is abandoned
Step 7. NRS releases new game because it's more profitable

You only get to really participate in these games during this bullshit and once the game is 'finalized' there's only a very small percentage of people left playing this crap. Their model is full well knowing that their product is disposable. And yes, it's impossible now to become a good player if you picked up SF4 weeks ago because everyone has had years of exposure to playing the game but the game is still being supported. That is NOT the case with this company's games. There's a lot of people here that want a competent competitive fighting game but NRS has deliberately chosen to create a disposable lackluster game that's only purpose is to sell to the casual audience.
 
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RM Jonnitti

Hot Dog
How well did that work out for MK9 and Injustice? Not well at all. Here's how NRS tends to operate. I think it's fair for me to make this assessment as this is the 3rd time that I've seen their pattern.

Step 1. Rush game at release with shit netcode and bugs/glitches/block infinites galore
Step 2. Kneejerk patching and beta fixes
Step 3. Releases DLC
Step 4. Kneejerk patching/hotfix failure resolves
Step 5. More kneejerk patching/hotfix failure resolves
Step 6. 'Finalized' game is abandoned
Step 7. NRS releases new game because it's more profitable

You only get to really participate in these games during this bullshit and once the game is 'finalized' there's only a very small percentage of people left playing this crap. Their model is full well knowing that their product is disposable. And yes, it's impossible now to become a good player if you picked up SF4 weeks ago because everyone has had years of exposure to playing the game but the game is still being supported. That is NOT the case with this company's games.
i disagree with your statement on sf4. that game is honestly easy af and really straight forward. ive only been playing the game for a little bit over a year and ive done alright in the game. its just the level of competition in capcom games is much higher due to how long running and established the playerbase is internationally
 

trufenix

bye felicia
i feel like every patch, defense got weaker and weaker which has made me like the game less and less each patch. im really not big on the whole "everyones got a cancel" meta
They just buffed the hell out of anti air and gave a ton of people ways out of pressure.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
its just the level of competition in capcom games is much higher due to how long running and established the playerbase is internationally
Yeah, that's what I meant. SF4 is a very easy game to master the basics of but the GOOD players (which there are so many of) are just on an extreme level. Those 1 frame FADC links and all that other crazy shit requires a huge time investment and obvious natural talent and dedication. Same can be said for KoF. That's the exciting thing about SF4 though is that the game is still being meshed out and there's still hype when some insanely good player brings a formerly thought of bad character to win major tournaments.