Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

[Zatoichi]

NRS patching has been good, but I SWEAR NRS has something against Kano. They hardly touch him in their patches, and when they finally DO give him something "big", it hardly changes Commando and Cybernetic. Cutthroat got the best change, but quickly became nerfed way too hard for zero reason. It's like NRS is scared to make Kano DECENT.

Not to mention some characters really aren't taken care of at all and fall off the face of the earth:

I literally forgot Kano was in the game.​

Went into a KoTH room, used kano, and the people with mics literally said: "Wait, Kano is in the game??"

 

[d3v]

As far as I know 3s never got ANY patches. Which is different than having limited patches. I'll give you that 3s was a fucked up game balance wise though. Same with MvC2. Plus, you didn't have the large amount of online and streaming exposure to advance the meta nearly as quickly as we do now.

As for SF4, debating who the real top tiers were in Vanilla in retrospect is not the same argument. I'm talking about seeing clearly overpowering or unreasonably weak/buggy tools and just "waiting for more time to pass". Yun and Yang were stupid in AE, and many players WISHED something would've been done about them sooner. I don't know too many players who would've said otherwise at the time.

Patches won't continue forever, and once they stop we're stuck with whatever game we have. Better to get as much corrected as possible while we can right?

3S got a patch (revision B) that was rejected by the community.

And these games kept advancing their meta for over a decade without patches. Even if you factor in streaming and youtube, that still means that you can get alot out of just sticking to one build. Even for just a year (which it seems will be the case with SFV).

The problem with NRS' patch schedule is that stuff doesn't get time to breathe. When something strong is found, it gets hammered down in the next patch before any other strong tech that may counter it can be developed. And when stuff that could have been a strong counter does get found, it ends up being the next strong thing that needs to be hammered down again. The system discourages these kinds of leaps and bounds in the arms race from players and the meta then ends up being driven more by the patches.

At the same time, you also can't shake the feeling that NRS is being complacent with balancing the new character because they can just patch out any problems.

 

[WonDoe]

It'll need frequent updates in 2016 because all KP2 characters are being released at once. If they don't keep the game fresh, it'll be crushed by SFV.

 

[VR-Fist]

I hope that by fresh you don't mean drastic changes with patches. I would rather see an update one/twice a year like Capcom plans to do with SFV or like Valve is doing with Dota. NRS patching spree definitely turned some of the players away.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Thoroughly testing their games could probably overwhelmingly help them a lot more. Instead they pawn that responsibility off to the competitive community. Why pay testers if you can just profit off dumb dlc while the players figure everything out?

 

[CassieCageIsMyPunchBag]

TLDR: People bitch about patches because their characters get Nerfed.

 

[Rude]

Thoroughly testing their games could probably overwhelmingly help them a lot more. Instead they pawn that responsibility off to the competitive community. Why pay testers if you can just profit off dumb dlc while the players figure everything out?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure all the in-house QA guys sit on their hands, count their hair, and let TYM do it all. That makes sense. Sure.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure all the in-house QA guys sit on their hands, count their hair, and let TYM do it all. That makes sense. Sure.

I never made any claims as to what the actual testers do. Are you arguing that the characters are released in good shape?

Nrs does not put enough resources into testing their games properly. Can you argue otherwise considering their history with game balance and dlc? I'm not personally attacking the people that do the testing.

 

[Rude]

I never made any claims as to what the actual testers do. Are you arguing that the characters are released in good shape?

Nrs does not put enough resources into testing their games properly. Can you argue otherwise considering their history with game balance and dlc? I'm not personally attacking the people that do the testing.

"Instead they pawn that responsibility off to the competitive community."

So you can give us accurate data as to the industry standard for quarterly allocated funds for game testing, and then provide data as to how NRS's resource allocation does not match that industry standard?

Apply for the job and put in the time for NRS's next game, then tell us NRS deliberately uses the community to test the game.

Scoot McGee for tester 2016!!!

 

[Scoot Magee]

"Instead they pawn that responsibility off to the competitive community."

So you can give us accurate data as to the industry standard for quarterly allocated funds for game testing, and then provide data as to how NRS's resource allocation does not match that industry standard?

Apply for the job and put in the time for NRS's next game, then tell us NRS deliberately uses the community to test the game.

Scoot McGee for tester 2016!!!

So if it's not resources it's the testers? If it's not the testers it must be resources? Do you know what the issue is?

Say what you will about what I know, the community always suffers when broken dlc is released into the wild right before major tournaments. Obviously the characters are not being fully explored before release and the players are finding a bunch of garbage. Maybe we can at least admit there's a problem? I think the logical conclusion would be that the issue revolves around testing. Is that really not a fair assumption?

It was unfair of me to accuse them of pawing off the testing to the community. I just wish they would do a better job.

I'm not tester material btw, I never claimed to be.

 

[Rude]

So if it's not resources it's the testers? If it's not the testers it must be resources? Do you know what the issue is?

Say what you will about what I know, the community always suffers when broken dlc is released into the wild right before major tournaments. Obviously the characters are not being fully explored before release and the players are finding a bunch of garbage. Maybe we can at least admit there's a problem? I think the logical conclusion would be that the issue revolves around testing. Is that really not a fair assumption?

It was unfair of me to accuse them of pawing off the testing to the community. I just wish they would do a better job.

I'm not tester material btw, I never claimed to be.

I think they do the best they can. There's more to test besides character balance for tournament viability. In fact, the FGC is still a small percentage of the millions of copies sold.

Instead of rushing to crucify NRS and the QA testers, we might first acknowledge their humanity and all the limitations that come with it, i.e. human error.

I will never pretend to understand all the decisions NRS makes, but I won't pretend they're exploiting their customers or throwing shit at a dart board, either.

 

[The_Tile]

I think they do the best they can. There's more to test besides character balance for tournament viability. In fact, the FGC is still a small percentage of the millions of copies sold.

Instead of rushing to crucify NRS and the QA testers, we might first acknowledge their humanity and all the limitations that come with it, i.e. human error.

I will never pretend to understand all the decisions NRS makes, but I won't pretend they're exploiting their customers or throwing shit at a dart board, either.

I'd normally be on your side, but you simply can't argue against @Scoot Magee's point when they do stuff like nerf Quan's, and some other characters', hard to blockables then release Cyrax and CSZ the way they did.

 

[Rude]

I'd normally be on your side, but you simply can't argue against @Scoot Magee's point when they do stuff like nerf Quan's, and some other characters', hard to blockables then release Cyrax and CSZ the way they did.

Quan still has all of his hard-to-blockables. They just don't loop anymore.

We received the DLC Characters after they had been designed, mo-capped, tested, etc.

In my estimation, the DLC were probably worse pre-release than after. We only get to see what the result is AFTER the first round of testing. These people aren't machines, they won't find everything.

As I said, I won't pretend to understand every decision they make. I'm just as confused as you about some of their choices, but I do not think they come from a place of malice toward the fanbase or incompetence.

 

[The_Tile]

Quan still has all of his hard-to-blockables. They just don't loop anymore.

We received the DLC Characters after they had been designed, mo-capped, tested, etc.

In my estimation, the DLC were probably worse pre-release than after. We only get to see what the result is AFTER the first round of testing. These people aren't machines, they won't find everything.

As I said, I won't pretend to understand every decision they make. I'm just as confused as you about some of their choices, but I do not think they come from a place of malice toward the fanbase or incompetence.

I know they don't, but on release Cyrax and CSZ'S HTBs did loop, and we're arguably better then Quan's.

The DLC being worse pre-release isn't something to be proud of, they were ridiculous on release so thinking of what they were like before that hurts my brain.

I know they won't find everything, but how hard is it to realise if you have a slow projectile that hits low and an OH attack you're gonna have HTBs and when net was +10000000 and restands it's obvious they're gonna be loopable.

I consider myself a noob to the FGC really, and I can see these problems coming from a mile away. These are the people who created the very game we're talking about here, with the greatest respect to NRS, you'd have just hoped they could spot these issues from a mile away too.

And solve the problems in a better way, some of the recent buffs/nerfs obviously haven't been well thought out at all.

 

[Rude]

I know they don't, but on release Cyrax and CSZ'S HTBs did loop, and we're arguably better then Quan's.

The DLC being worse pre-release isn't something to be proud of, they were ridiculous on release so thinking of what they were like before that hurts my brain.

I know they won't find everything, but how hard is it to realise if you have a slow projectile that hits low and an OH attack you're gonna have HTBs and when net was +10000000 and restands it's obvious they're gonna be loopable.

I consider myself a noob to the FGC really, and I can see these problems coming from a mile away. These are the people who created the very game we're talking about here, with the greatest respect to NRS, you'd have just hoped they could spot these issues from a mile away too.

And solve the problems in a better way, some of the recent buffs/nerfs obviously haven't been well thought out at all.

It's easy to arm-chair develop and say what you would and would not have done if you were in their position.

Hindsight and all that.

It's much harder when you actually have to do the job. But hey, I've yet to see any of the armchair QA testers on TYM actually apply for the job.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think they do the best they can. There's more to test besides character balance for tournament viability. In fact, the FGC is still a small percentage of the millions of copies sold.

Instead of rushing to crucify NRS and the QA testers, we might

It's easy to arm-chair develop and say what you would and would not have done if you were in their position.

Hindsight and all that.

It's much harder when you actually have to do the job. But hey, I've yet to see any of the armchair QA testers on TYM actually apply for the job.

I get it, it's a hard job. I don't think anybody thinks it's easy to balance a fighting game. The thing is a lot of people are unhappy with the results and it's nrs's job imo to be good at what they do.

I'm not going to make any claims as to what it takes to get things right. What I do know is that I'm not happy with what they've been putting out so I just didn't buy it.

I don't know how much time and money goes into testing. If testers only have so much time they can only find so much, I get that. You keep bringing up the testers as if I'm personally attacking and blaming them for everything.

Like I said before I was wrong to make assumptions as to why things are the way they are. I don't think it's unreasonable as a consumer to not be happy with what has been put out though.

 

[Rebourne07]

Tell that to Cyrax and Tremor...

 

[Amplified$hotz]

The thing is people like REO and Tom find broken stuff within a day at most of playing. So I guess the ones actually getting paid for testing are expected to be better at finding broken things.

 

[Eddy Wang]

dem blowups lel. "watches thread"

 

[Rude]

The thing is people like REO and Tom find broken stuff within a day at most of playing. So I guess the ones actually getting paid for testing are expected to be better at finding broken things.

How do you know that they're not? Did you see the very first build of Alien before the XL's release? Probably not.

What Tom and REO found existed after the first round of testing/code modifying happened. Its not like testing games is an exact science with strictly adhered to guidelines that work universally, 100% of the time.

I get it, it's a hard job. I don't think anybody thinks it's easy to balance a fighting game. The thing is a lot of people are unhappy with the results and it's nrs's job imo to be good at what they do.

I'm not going to make any claims as to what it takes to get things right. What I do know is that I'm not happy with what they've been putting out so I just didn't buy it.

I don't know how much time and money goes into testing. If testers only have so much time they can only find so much, I get that. You keep bringing up the testers as if I'm personally attacking and blaming them for everything.

Like I said before I was wrong to make assumptions as to why things are the way they are. I don't think it's unreasonable as a consumer to not be happy with what has been put out though.

You're more than welcome to be unsatisfied with the result. You should note that the messages you quoted weren't just directed at you .

I find it galling that people on this site like to spam the "lol, test ur gamez" nonsense without ever considering the big picture. Also, I don't think the DLC affected tournament attendance this time at all.

The people who made top 8 at Final Round would have likely done so without whatever DLC Characters were used. It's funny, because we saw Forever King use Bo Rai Cho on stream and Forever King Jr use Cyrax and neither one made top 8.

It's true that Sonic Fox used Alien, but he's no stranger to winning even without such a character. Dragon, who has also made his fare share of top 8s, did so using Alien. There isn't anything to suggest that he couldn't have done it if Alien was never to be seen.

Leatherface and the 'Bots were also missing from Final Round's top 8. The point: If these characters were so detrimental to the tournament scene as you suggested in an earlier post, why didn't we get a repeat of CEO?

Also, these complaints of DLC being broken are made even further irrelevant by the fact that they were adjusted in a patch. So not only did they deal no real damage to the competitive scene, they likely won't after the patch.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

How do you know that they're not? Did you see the very first build of Alien before the XL's release? Probably not.

What Tom and REO found existed after the first round of testing/code modifying happened. Its not like testing games is an exact science with strictly adhered to guidelines that work universally, 100% of the time.


You're more than welcome to be unsatisfied with the result. You should note that the messages you quoted weren't just directed at you .

I find it galling that people on this site like to spam the "lol, test ur gamez" nonsense without ever considering the big picture. Also, I don't think the DLC affected tournament attendance this time at all.

The people who made top 8 at Final Round would have likely done so without whatever DLC Characters were used. It's funny, because we saw Forever King use Bo Rai Cho on stream and Forever King Jr use Cyrax and neither one made top 8.

It's true that Sonic Fox used Alien, but he's no stranger to winning even without such a character. Dragon, who has also made his fare share of top 8s, did so using Alien. There isn't anything to suggest that he couldn't have done it if Alien was never to be seen.

Leatherface and the 'Bots were also missing from Final Round's top 8. The point: If these characters were so detrimental to the tournament scene as you suggested in an earlier post, why didn't we get a repeat of CEO?

Also, these complaints of DLC being broken are made even further irrelevant by the fact that they were adjusted in a patch. So not only did they deal no real damage to the competitive scene, they likely won't after the patch.

Because they made it into the game. Hard to block setups were already in the game and were complained about then they made it in again. A lot of people would expect them to really keep an eye out for these things. I'm just saying I can see why people are annoyed. Not because these things make it in, but because they repeatedly happen.

 

[Rude]

Because they made it into the game. Hard to block setups were already in the game and were complained about then they made it in again. A lot of people would expect them to really keep an eye out for these things. I'm just saying I can see why people are annoyed. Not because these things make it in, but because they repeatedly happen.

This just in: Human testers are not actually machines.

Film at 11.

 

[Rebourne07]

Because they made it into the game. Hard to block setups were already in the game and were complained about then they made it in again. A lot of people would expect them to really keep an eye out for these things. I'm just saying I can see why people are annoyed. Not because these things make it in, but because they repeatedly happen.

I honestly believe they make it into the game on purpose. An extremely likely and lucrative scenario is

"DUDE! I just bought Tri-Borg and he's epic! I loop everyone online in this crazy Cyrax vortex and get double flawless all day now!"

"OMG I want a piece of the OP pie! I'll buy Tri-Borg too!"

and thus a $5 sale becomes a $10 sale. Then just watch the sales graph and when new sales drop below a point or a big enough tournament rolls around they release the 'real' character and laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[GamerBlake90]

This thread is still ongoing? Dayum.

 

[Skylight1]

This thread is still ongoing? Dayum.

This situation will never die down though as it will always be relevant. Just as long as NRS makes games and then nerf everything in sight.