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On your knees, day 6 Kotal Kahn impressions.

I haven't read much, but after using mainly him since day 1 I believe his F1 changed to a mid would make him feel a lot better. For whiff punishing and creating pressure up close. Everytime I get pressured up close I look for an opportunity to land a D1 and immediate D4 just to create some space
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
If u really wanna setup with sunray u can cancel 34 into sunray, on hit its safe and 34 is easy hitconfirmable.
U kinda dont wanna play him like in mkx where u just go in their face and expect to be safe with all ur string, like other say u have to make more reads, use his unsafe strings only to punish not to pressure. If they block unsafe strings end them with parry, confuse your opponent, once they start respecting u too much its gg.
Yeah I found Sun-Ray setup off B22 xx Kahn-cut, 34 xx God Ray. But it's punishable by 12f advancing highs, mids and lows. I think it has slightly more advantage than 34 alone.

He still shit up close but great at long-mid range. The problem with that is every string puts him up close on block and if they crouch block it reduces pushback. Wish sun choke allowed you to choose sides cuz I need that corner carry and it's BS to end everything in Kahn-cut.
If his D4 was faster we could keep them at the perfect range.

What I've been using long range is dash forward cancel into F12/F24 to catch them off guard once they are used to my range.
When I'm able to get God Ray out full screen I seem to do fine with zoning throwing the occasional disk check, move up to that magical range on thier knockdown ready to F24/F4/F12/F34.

Really struggling up close vs characters with fast startup so I'll try to incorporate parry just afraid they will do 3 hit string and not a poke to blow up parry.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Is it safe to set up sunlight after a b22 hit?
No it's not every string is unsafe but the safest is [B22 xx Kahn-cut 34 xx Sunlight (God Ray)] around 20% but nothing is safe going for Amplified Sun Ray, the one that tracks because it has double the recovery.

His 34 xx Sun can be punished with advancing moves faster than 12 frames. Full screen it's unsafe against many.
 
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Pterodactyl

Jacqui main since Dead Alliance
I just want to say a couple things...
Firstly, I think it's good that Kotal players are having a tough time figuring out how to play him best, whatever the variation. I think that promotes exploration and creativity.
Secondly, before people say "yes but there's a difference between 'figuring out how to play him best' and 'having a tough time with him because he just plain sucks'", please remember that the game is <1 week old.

I believe that over time, frustration and failure will become understanding and success
People only talk about their second fight where he lost but never their first fight where he literally beat Shao’s ass so hard he had to run away with D’vorah.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Premium Supporter
His 34 xx Sun can be punished with advancing moves faster than 12 frames. Full screen it's safe.
When 34 hits they are halfscreen, only thing so far that i know punishes it is sub zeros slide, i tested with noob tele and scorpion teleport and both was safe. Havent tested with many other characters tho
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
When 34 hits they are halfscreen, only thing so far that i know punishes it is sub zeros slide, i tested with noob tele and scorpion teleport and both was safe. Havent tested with many other characters tho
Raidens F2 and F4 also Punishes and I'm sure there us more but I'm not completely familiar with matchups yet. I think Sonya's B3 reaches and Scorpions Everything including teleport and noob has enough range to punish as well.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Kotal after 1.03 Patch, subject to change.

He is basically the same and from what I can tell there isn't any changes to startup or recovery so his SunBeam and Totems are unsafe without conditioning.


Tonatiuh Beam (what everyone calls Sunlight/Sun-Ray) is 14f startup and around 51f recovery making it about 64f disadvantage after raw SunBeam. Punishable!
Amplified version is Startup 1f and 68f recovery. Damn that's bad.

34 xx Tonatiuh-Beam after B22 combo will reduce about 10-15 frames off them making it almost completely safe but very situational.

Totems: are 1frame startup and 58 recovery making them almost completely safe but not quite, better than Sunlight though.

Yeyecame Disk: is now 29 frames startup down from 22 if I'm not mistaken. 7 frames slower.

Xolal Quake: is 41f-Start-Up | 9f-Active | 50f-Recovery.
Amplified = 36 Startup I 2 active | 64 recovery.

Huehhueyi (Sun Choke) Startup(14f), Active(3f), Recovery (43f), hit Adv (18f).
- Amplified: Startup (1f), Active(N/A), Recovery (149f)

Coat Parry: start-up (14f) recovery (23)
Can be held/delayed. Only works on single hits to make strings safe but will get blown up with 2-3 hit normal. So good for pokes and bad for anything else and lows.
 
Kotal after 1.03 Patch, subject to change.

He is basically the same and from what I can tell there isn't any changes to startup or recovery so his SunBeam and Totems are unsafe without conditioning.


Tonatiuh Beam (what everyone calls Sunlight/Sun-Ray) is 14f startup and around 51f recovery making it about 64f disadvantage after raw SunBeam. Punishable!
Amplified version is Startup 1f and 68f recovery. Damn that's bad.

34 xx Tonatiuh-Beam after B22 combo will reduce about 10-15 frames off them making it almost completely safe but very situational.

Totems: are 1frame startup and 58 recovery making them almost completely safe but not quite, better than Sunlight though.

Yeyecame Disk: is now 29 frames startup down from 22 if I'm not mistaken. 7 frames slower.

Xolal Quake: is 41f-Start-Up | 9f-Active | 50f-Recovery.
Amplified = 36 Startup I 2 active | 64 recovery.

Huehhueyi (Sun Choke) Startup(14f), Active(3f), Recovery (43f), hit Adv (18f).
- Amplified: Startup (1f), Active(N/A), Recovery (149f)

Coat Parry: start-up (14f) recovery (23)
Can be held/delayed. Only works on single hits to make strings safe but will get blown up with 2-3 hit normal. So good for pokes and bad for anything else and lows.
I don't think 1.03 changed any frame data. His sun disk has always been 29f.
 

DoctorSexual

XBL: DoctorSexual PSN: Osh-Tek
Wtf why? It's not like he was op fucking hell why have they nerfed a d tier character?
I mean it was legit broken. You really can't have a decently fast, hit confirmable advancing low that's also able to tick on block.
 

Fyre

Noob
I mean it was legit broken. You really can't have a decently fast, hit confirmable advancing low that's also able to tick on block.
I wouldn't say it was broken people are putting kotal in c/d tier if it was that good we would all be abusing it and he would high tier. Sun God on mkx wasn't broken and the B14 was way better than his f3 in this game.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I wouldn't say it was broken people are putting kotal in c/d tier if it was that good we would all be abusing it and he would high tier. Sun God on mkx wasn't broken and the B14 was way better than his f3 in this game.
I'm a Kotal main and I think he suffers close up, he has legit problems but his range is strong AF in this meta. My only issue is getting out Beam and dealing with them close up when his D1 has raptor arms syndrome.

The F3 tick throw was absolutely broke. His move starts up in 17frames and reaches long range and has 16 frames hit advantage which allows him to follow up with another F3 making an infinite loop on top of it he could delay DB2 command grab so it only came out on block but not hit. This made him get 10-20% off it reguardless. This doesn't even take into account it was a mid that couldn't be escaped, couldn't neutral jump it, jump out, Backdash, duck it or counter it.

I'm glad they fixed it. You can now tick off standing 1 and D1 into tick but there is a legit counter, neutral jump and crouch criss over and jump back. They can't just evade it as it's unreactable but on a read they can. So they have to guess you are doing it which is very similar to the meta of entire cast. Number of hits(guess), 50/50s(guess) stagger and block pressure (guess) but everything has a response. This keeps every character honest and preserves the neutral and mind games of mk.
Scorpion has probably the best 50/50s since he has Mid to Overhead, Low to Overhead, Mid to Low. No other character has this. But everyone has mixups: number of hits will throw off opponent and get them to press buttons when you have advantage, cancel pressure does the same and Sonya, Scorpion, Raiden and Sub Zero 50/50s make them guess on block.
I feel they are more honest than they have ever been in previous games since thier us either responses for all of it or they start as high and can be low profiled and or is very unsafe.

My boi Kotal Kahn does need help with close game(has a ton of slow starters and mainly highs in a meta ruled by fast mids) and counter zoning (very hard to get sunlight beam out, it's unsafe) but is really decent mid range, if you live in footsie range, just out of thier reach you can wiff punish them with his incredibly good walk speed and movement. His normal forward dash can be cancelled into normals very quick allowing you to trip up and block check them with F2, F3, F12, 3(4), and F4.
His best moves up close are his pokes his 122 and 22 don't have good range.
He has good push back on strings but opponent can crouch block to reduce it and his viable Ascension tournament variation with Kahn-cut switches sides with his Sun Choke which is his BnB for any real damage.
Not to mention all of his strings put him point blank in thier face on block exactly where he doesn't want to be.

His only saving Grace is his range is very powerful and his sunlight counter zones if you can manage to get it out and his parry stops them from using certain Special moves with moderate startup and can be used to stop counter pokes and adds a damage buff.

REO made a tier list with him in B Tier which is mid tier. Decent but has problems. We will see how he does in tournament. I will be using him.

@Apex Kano
 
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Fyre

Noob
I'm a Kotal main and I think he suffers close up, he has legit problems but his range is strong AF in this meta. My only issue is getting out Beam and dealing with them close up when his D1 has raptor arms syndrome.

The F3 tick throw was absolutely broke. His move starts up in 17frames and reaches long range and has 16 frames hit advantage which allows him to follow up with another F3 making an infinite loop on top of it he could delay DB2 command grab so it only came out on block but not hit. This made him get 10-20% off it reguardless. This doesn't even take into account it was a mid that couldn't be escaped, couldn't neutral jump it, jump out, Backdash, duck it or counter it.

I'm glad they fixed it. You can now tick off standing 1 and D1 into tick but there is a legit counter, neutral jump and crouch criss over and jump back. They can't just evade it as it's unreactable but on a read they can. So they have to guess you are doing it which is very similar to the meta of entire cast. Number of hits(guess), 50/50s(guess) stagger and block pressure (guess) but everything has a response. This keeps every character honest and preserves the neutral and mind games of mk.
Scorpion has probably the best 50/50s since he has Mid to Overhead, Low to Overhead, Mid to Low. No other character has this. But everyone has mixups: number of hits will throw off opponent and get them to press buttons when you have advantage, cancel pressure does the same and Sonya, Scorpion, Raiden and Sub Zero 50/50s make them guess on block.
I feel they are more honest than they have ever been in previous games since thier us either responses for all of it or they start as high and can be low profiled and or is very unsafe.

My boi Kotal Kahn does need help with close game(has a ton of slow starters and mainly highs in a meta ruled by fast mids) and counter zoning (very hard to get sunlight beam out, it's unsafe) but is really decent mid range, if you live in footsie range, just out of thier reach you can wiff punish them with his incredibly good walk speed and movement. His normal forward dash can be cancelled into normals very quick allowing you to trip up and block check them with F2, F3, F12, 3(4), and F4.
His best moves up close are his pokes his 122 and 22 don't have good range.
He has good push back on strings but opponent can crouch block to reduce it and his viable Ascension tournament variation with Kahn-cut switches sides with his Sun Choke which is his BnB for any real damage.
Not to mention all of his strings put him point blank in thier face on block exactly where he doesn't want to be.

His only saving Grace is his range is very powerful and his sunlight counter zones if you can manage to get it out and his parry stops them from using certain Special moves with moderate startup and can be used to stop counter pokes and adds a damage buff.

REO made a tier list with him in B Tier which is mid tier. Decent but has problems. We will see how he does in tournament. I will be using him.
I am just frustrated with how they are downgrading him instead of looking at improvements. I like kotal due to his totems and buffs but the totems are difficult to get up and the 3 totems is pointless because you will never have an opportunity to call 3 totems and be able to put them to use. Tournament wise I hate his variations. The god Ray ability on the first one ruins the variation, the only use for that is to heal in my opinion or enhance it and try pull a command grab off for good dmg. And the second variation is just a joke 2 crappy moves that just look cool and then your left without the kahn cut which is the only move you can use to start proper combos.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I am just frustrated with how they are downgrading him instead of looking at improvements. I like kotal due to his totems and buffs but the totems are difficult to get up and the 3 totems is pointless because you will never have an opportunity to call 3 totems and be able to put them to use. Tournament wise I hate his variations. The god Ray ability on the first one ruins the variation, the only use for that is to heal in my opinion or enhance it and try pull a command grab off for good dmg. And the second variation is just a joke 2 crappy moves that just look cool and then your left without the kahn cut which is the only move you can use to start proper combos.
At minimum I want Beam to have a little less recovery so I'm not punished for using the move after cutting off Kahnbows.

QOL
  • Maybe give him option to choose sides after choke?
  • Sun Ray setup from other strings besides 34 which is very situational and doesn't connect with most BnBs just B22 xx Kahn-cut.
  • Maybe just make his D4 a tiny bit faster.
  • Kahn-cut becomes a base move.
Any one of these changes would make me extremely happy with Kotal.
 

DoctorSexual

XBL: DoctorSexual PSN: Osh-Tek
The more I play this game the more I'm just absolutely baffled with the direction they chose to go. To be fair I'm speaking from the eyes of someone who has only tried Kotal but is this really it? It's like I know the game has been out less than a month but I'm konvinced we've seen the best this character has to offer in terms of kombos and tech. I mean even if they allow for different tournament variations I feel like the real problem lies in the properties of the normals. Launchers are incredibly limited, tons of moves that just end with your opponent damn near full screen and recovery on almost everything is just plain absurd.
 

Fyre

Noob
The more I play this game the more I'm just absolutely baffled with the direction they chose to go. To be fair I'm speaking from the eyes of someone who has only tried Kotal but is this really it? It's like I know the game has been out less than a month but I'm konvinced we've seen the best this character has to offer in terms of kombos and tech. I mean even if they allow for different tournament variations I feel like the real problem lies in the properties of the normals. Launchers are incredibly limited, tons of moves that just end with your opponent damn near full screen and recovery on almost everything is just plain absurd.
They just hate kotal man. Shao kahn already took his legs and now they are taking away his tick throws and leaving him to wither away. Press F to pay respect.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
They just hate kotal man. Shao kahn already took his legs and now they are taking away his tick throws and leaving him to wither away. Press F to pay respect.
Ok so I think Kotal can benefit from minor adjustments but too much could make him S Tier, I think any of the following would help Kotal immensely: only one of the following fixes:

- Tonatiuh Beam:
could use less recovery to be safe only on F12 xx Kahn-cut F12 xx Tonatiuh Beam
or
starter xx Kahn-cut 122/amp CG.
but keep it unsafe in the neutral.
This will help him counter zone while not being to powerful because all his corner setups will be unsafe.

- Increase range of (1)2 and (2)2 on first hit. It has Jacqui mkx syndrome.
This would help him up close while not being to powerful being high starters.

Make D4 startup 9f to help keep rushdown characters from looking him up having no fast mids or really any fast Strings that don't wiff.

Make Kahn-cut a base move so he can get better damage off totem and other variation loadouts.

Any of those changes would help him in some way while he still has huge weaknesses like every character should.

But if he isn't adjusted I'll just try to figure it out cuz at this point I'll need a pocket to deal with S Tier characters with Jack of all trades tools and strong loops, close game, mid range and zoning like Sonya, Geras, Kabal, Cassie, Sub Zero and Scorpion.

A few tips:

I have found that he has strong tools but lacks close up and far away. But you can mitigate these weaknesses by staying in footsie range and keep them guessing with number of hits and bait out wiff Punishers. When you decide to take a chance by F12/F24/F3 to button check, hit confirm he will be in thier face but 12 and 22 will wiff first hit be sure of pushback so he will be in a bad spot and you have a couple options:
Throw, D1 tick or if you think they will counter poke with a fast low/mid do Coatl Parry off the D1 it will absorb one hit and add a damage buff and allows you to block after absorb. If they are doing a mid normal they can pull you into combo so be ready to block.
I like to do Coatl Parry block counter and counter with D4 which puts them at F12 rangeso you can either back up for wiff punish to come in hot with F24 if you backed up far enough or F4 to slam that mid with pushback in thier face even F3 but if you don't read a mash comming to wiff punish then use F12 and it's also hit confirmable just like F24 and B22 so no reason to ever get caught using Kahn-cut on block.
Kotal is very strong when playing to his strengths it's just when he is up against a character that has strong close and mid range he struggles alot not to mention zoning. His sunlight is great for counter zoning and he has that KB off counter disk but it's not like he can spam the thing it's like 29f startup and the Beam is punishable everywhere so only available when opponent makes huge mistakes or really doesn't know the matchup. I get away with Tonatiuh Beam online all the time but that won't be safe in tournament after everyone gets familiar with the match up.
His unblockable setup in corner off
Starter xx Kahn-cut D1 34 xx DB4 stuffs Roll and U2 but gets avoided by Delay wake up and beat out by U3. Still very good and restands from meterless version and nets 15% and knockdown from amplified OVERHEAD.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Ok so I think Kotal can benefit from minor adjustments but too much could make him S Tier, I think any of the following would help Kotal immensely: only one of the following fixes:

- Tonatiuh Beam:
could use less recovery to be safe only on F12 xx Kahn-cut F12 xx Tonatiuh Beam
or
starter xx Kahn-cut 122/amp CG.
but keep it unsafe in the neutral.
This will help him counter zone while not being to powerful because all his corner setups will be unsafe.

- Increase range of (1)2 and (2)2 on first hit. It has Jacqui mkx syndrome.
This would help him up close while not being to powerful being high starters.

Make D4 startup 9f to help keep rushdown characters from looking him up having no fast mids or really any fast Strings that don't wiff.

Make Kahn-cut a base move so he can get better damage off totem and other variation loadouts.

Any of those changes would help him in some way while he still has huge weaknesses like every character should.

But if he isn't adjusted I'll just try to figure it out cuz at this point I'll need a pocket to deal with S Tier characters with Jack of all trades tools and strong loops, close game, mid range and zoning like Sonya, Geras, Kabal, Cassie, Sub Zero and Scorpion.

A few tips:

I have found that he has strong tools but lacks close up and far away. But you can mitigate these weaknesses by staying in footsie range and keep them guessing with number of hits and bait out wiff Punishers. When you decide to take a chance by F12/F24/F3 to button check, hit confirm he will be in thier face but 12 and 22 will wiff first hit be sure of pushback so he will be in a bad spot and you have a couple options:
Throw, D1 tick or if you think they will counter poke with a fast low/mid do Coatl Parry off the D1 it will absorb one hit and add a damage buff and allows you to block after absorb. If they are doing a mid normal they can pull you into combo so be ready to block.
I like to do Coatl Parry block counter and counter with D4 which puts them at F12 rangeso you can either back up for wiff punish to come in hot with F24 if you backed up far enough or F4 to slam that mid with pushback in thier face even F3 but if you don't read a mash comming to wiff punish then use F12 and it's also hit confirmable just like F24 and B22 so no reason to ever get caught using Kahn-cut on block.
Kotal is very strong when playing to his strengths it's just when he is up against a character that has strong close and mid range he struggles alot not to mention zoning. His sunlight is great for counter zoning and he has that KB off counter disk but it's not like he can spam the thing it's like 29f startup and the Beam is punishable everywhere so only available when opponent makes huge mistakes or really doesn't know the matchup. I get away with Tonatiuh Beam online all the time but that won't be safe in tournament after everyone gets familiar with the match up.
His unblockable setup in corner off
Starter xx Kahn-cut D1 34 xx DB4 stuffs Roll and U2 but gets avoided by Delay wake up and beat out by U3. Still very good and restands from meterless version and nets 15% and knockdown from amplified OVERHEAD.
How plus are you on the restand off db4?
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
How plus are you on the restand off db4?
I haven't accurately determined that yet. It's very timing heavy and fluctuating from -3 to +3 or 4.
But there are options out of it. He is getting around 20% into 8%(Unlockable) and 7 more if amplify for the Overhead on hit

Oponents options out of it are delay wake up which completely avoids the unblockable and fuzzy overhead on reaction. other options stuff it: u3 beats it every time but it can blow up side switch roll and U2 launcher.

Sorry I don't have a better answer to your initial question but it's very tight link to get it the same plus advantage at least from the setup I'm using and there may be easier ways to get plus on block.
I'm sure most of the other setups force block if they wakeup wrong but if they know it and see the 34 just before DB4 they are able to react wakup to avoid so maybe we can find other timings to create a guess on wakeup? But all I can get is the late timing just to allow DB4 to connect on standard wakeup/roll/U2.
Wait till they drop as low as 34 can connect to get the setup for the extra 8% to a possible 15% with a bar that is clearly Blockables if the first part misses and I think is Blockables even when DB4 blows up wakeup.
 
When I saw the trailer I thought DAMN, that panther move looks great.
As I've learned, it's pretty much useless and very easy to punish.
Yepp i felt the same for this 100%!!! Sadly there is no AMP option for either, and the air version (Tecuami Pounce) has no overhead. The only thing i could figure worth ending with it in Totemic variation, is using at the end of some strings to carry ez to corner but this character already has forward carry combo potential in either variation without Tecuami Maul.. One thing that is unfortunate that i originally speculated the move would have is the ability to go under high hitting projectiles. Similar to scarecrows F1 in injustice, i was expecting you can use it to force whiff by diving below high projectiles, closing in and punish zoning. I really wished Kotal Kahns Tecuani Maul had this potential or at least something to AMP. Love the animation of the move but seems far too weak when compared to the options given by the Ascension variation.
 

NHDR

Noob
He's so crap up close, it hurts. I hope they give him better safety or better start-up on some of his normals and strings, because anything but mid-range is hell.