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On your knees, day 6 Kotal Kahn impressions.

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Week 3 Update:

Unpopular opinion I guess but I feel Kotal is a strong character. He has massive range and deadly push back. That Base Sunlight is beast and can keep him alive against zoning used with his near full screen F2. He does have hitbox issues on nearly every combo string:
F1
F2
S1
S2
D1(shit range)
D4(slow).


He is mainly used long range with his F34, F24, B223, F4 and F12. His close game is lacking since his mids are on the slow side and characters that have 9-12f mids can easily lock him down up close and in the corner along with nearly every move having wiffing hitboxes.

What I don't like about him, his close game is on the slow side, his best mid F2 only connects at the very last part of animation despite being a 22f mid it can be caught by someone mashing Normals half screen away. It is also reactable.
His Sun Ray has really long recovery and I'm not seeing safe setups for it other than a semi safe setup off 34. So far I've found Raiden, Cassie, Scarlet, Sub Zero can punish it on reaction.
His totem is hard to get out.
His only launcher has to be added for one slot which makes his other variations useless, Kahn-cut needs to be a base Special Move so we can use totems or other moves with it since it's his only real launcher other than the very situational B22 which is unsafe and has a gap after the B22(gap)3 which can be poked and flawless blocked.

So let's look at his normals speed and range:

12
- is 8f high with very short range, ant move will push Kotal out of range. Wiffs
22 9f high first hit very short range similar to mkx Jacqui. Wiffs

34 - 11 frame high can only reach close bit is too slow to use close. And wiffs on ground and in combo.

F34 - 17f low good mid range shit up close. Crouch duck blocking removes pushback.

F24 - can only be used for wiff punish half screen away. Never use close it's 22f mid.

F4 - decent pushback like F24 but starts up 15 frames can't be used close only mid range. Can't 1 or 2 after without wiffing.

B22 - very slow on startup but launches on hit, can only be used far, easily wiff punished because each hit take forever to come out, like he is swatting flys out of the air.

B223 - high, mid to Overhead, unsafe, like B22 can only be used mid range and is very punishable and can't launch for combo because of recovery and has a gap to FB.

F122 - 11 frame high mid overhead with gap, can't be used close, best used mid to long footsie range. Full combo punishable and flawless Block gap punishable.

F12 - 11 frame high to mid, one if his best starters used at mid range. Has wiffing issues.

As you can see he has nothing but pokes close range and his D4 to get them out is slow so he lacks close up and suffers against zoners having a delay between disks and his Sun ray being full combo punishable midscreen.



Justified nerf
The F3 tick throw was absolutely broke. His move starts up in 17frames and reaches long range and has 16 frames hit advantage which allows him to follow up with another F3 making an infinite loop on top of it he could delay DB2 command grab so it only came out on block but not hit. This made him get 10-20% off it reguardless. This doesn't even take into account it was a mid that couldn't be escaped, couldn't neutral jump it, jump out, Backdash, duck it or counter it.
I'm glad they fixed it.

Tick throws
You can now tick off standing 1 and D1 into tick but there is a legit counter, neutral jump and crouch criss over and jump back. They can't just evade it as it's unreactable but on a read they can. So they have to guess you are doing it which is very similar to the meta of entire cast. Number of hits(guess), 50/50s(guess) stagger and block pressure (guess) but everything has a response. This keeps every character honest and preserves the neutral and mind games of mk.
Scorpion has probably the best 50/50s since he has Mid to Overhead, Low to Overhead, Mid to Low. No other character has this. But everyone has mixups: number of hits will throw off opponent and get them to press buttons when you have advantage, cancel pressure does the same and Sonya, Scorpion, Raiden and Sub Zero 50/50s make them guess on block.
I feel they are more honest than they have ever been in previous games since thier is either responses for all of it or they start as high and can be low profiled and or is very unsafe.

A closer look at Kotal
My boi Kotal Kahn does need help with close game(has a ton of slow starters and mainly highs in a meta ruled by fast mids) and counter zoning (very hard to get sunlight beam out, it's unsafe) but is really decent mid range, if you live in footsie range, just out of thier reach you can wiff punish them with his incredibly good walk speed and movement. His normal forward dash can be cancelled into normals very quick allowing you to trip up and block check them with F2, F3, F12, 3(4), and F4.
His best moves up close are his pokes his 122 and 22 don't have good range.
He has good push back on strings but opponent can crouch block to reduce it and his viable Ascension tournament variation with Kahn-cut switches sides with his Sun Choke which is his BnB for any real damage.
Not to mention all of his strings put him point blank in thier face on block exactly where he doesn't want to be.

His only saving Grace is his range is very powerful and his sunlight counter zones if you can manage to get it out and his parry stops them from using certain Special moves with moderate startup and can be used to stop counter pokes and adds a damage buff.



What does everyone else think of my boi Kotal? Anything you want fixed? Are you struggling with him? Is he OP? Tell me below. I'm interested in what others have to say on day 6+ after hearing so many on day 2 say he needed buffs.
 
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DoctorSexual

XBL: DoctorSexual PSN: Osh-Tek
In my opinion competitive mode Sun Ray is a joke since you cant decide where you want to place it (close, mid, far).

It's like if you're going to give us a passive like that at least make it fast. Look how quick Errons acid vial comes out. He's able to drop it for free after any string he wants. For us you have to be really really careful about using it unless you're willing to take a hit to get it out.
 

Stuck

Mid Tier Whore. 1 combo and a dream.
My best up close punish is D1 tick throw. Everything else gets smashed. F12 gets down poked or uppercutted every time. Everything else is too slow. Does anyone else have a reliable up close punish? The only time I can get sun ray out is after MB command grab.
 
Kotal is not an easy character to win with compared to other characters. He gets bullied in close range. However I have fun playing him. Honestly I'm a noob. So my strategy is using d1, if it hits my opponent most of the time won't respect it. So they mash. After my d1 I use d4 it sends them somewhat mid range. Then I use F24 to catch them mashing. After they respect my d1 and d4 I mix in command grab.

Also if F24 gets beat out I just use F4.
 

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
having a really good time with kotal (cat/totem variation)! I don't really use blood totem, but I use sun a lot.
I like playing him lame: getting a life lead, then annoying them with sun, disk, f34 and f4, some ground pounds here and there
 

Fyre

Noob
I think kotal needs to be able to flip which direction the command grab goes depending on whether you amplify it or not like his df2 move with the sword. With the command grab at the minute if you do it in the corner then you basically screw yourself over. Considering this is his main combo ender it seems a bit unfair. I also feel like his parry needs faster start up and/or recovery as against continous projectiles it does nothing and kotals projectiles is one of the slowest in the game. Finally his second Ranked variation needs changing like who uses the jaguar moves? I would personally prefer to see one based around his totems and on that note change the totem input to A instead of left trigger it's awkward af to call totems.
 
Does anyone use his parry...like at all?! -- Might need to start incorporating it again, like the middle to end of MKX's life cycle.

Despite going through the character tutorial, IIRC, I thought it mentioned it worked against projectiles like in MKX. Gameplay last night indicated otherwise.

I just started practicing "Perfect Blocking into Up 2" the last day or so. I'm at work right now but I wonder if using parry will offer the ability to do the same.
 

Fyre

Noob
Does anyone use his parry...like at all?! -- Might need to start incorporating it again, like the middle to end of MKX's life cycle.

Despite going through the character tutorial, IIRC, I thought it mentioned it worked against projectiles like in MKX. Gameplay last night indicated otherwise.

I just started practicing "Perfect Blocking into Up 2" the last day or so. I'm at work right now but I wonder if using parry will offer the ability to do the same.
His parry is an afterthought to me theres other options I'd rather take.
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
When I saw the trailer I thought DAMN, that panther move looks great.
As I've learned, it's pretty much useless and very easy to punish.
This. It's so slow and has so much recovery someone can jump over it, wait a good moment to stretch out their thumbs, and then kindly punish with their best projectile/TP. The cat should not run at the edge of the screen for like a full 3 seconds if you miss. It should be punishable, but not by coma patients.
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
my impressions is i did 10 times better with 1day old kung lao then a week old kotal
This is what I found, but with Scorpion, and I got a real shit Scorpion.

I just don't understand where Kotal is supposed to live. Up close everything he does is stuff. From afar he gets zoned incredibly easy, especially thanks to his low and slow jump. Totem and God Ray are both incredibly unsafe and are basically a free punish. Yes, F4 and F34 are good, but that's not enough to make a character.

I'm glad some people are finding their way with him. Any videos of gameplay would be really appreciated so I can see what I've been doing wrong. I ducked in on Quarks stream a few times, but I'd like to see some other play styles as well.
 
His parry is an afterthought to me theres other options I'd rather take.
What options are YOU using? -- Seriously

Whiff punishing doesn't seem to be working for me which I was using heavily in MKX (Blood God main).
Tick throws don't work on button mashers and besides D3 & D4's range, i'm not getting rewarded much up close.
Staggered F3 works occasionally. But now that i'm in, what mid besides a poke will do me any justice? Yolo pokes into Kahn Cut or whiffed command grab is instant punish with standing 1 from anyone.
B2 is getting stuffed by forward advancing mids. F2 getting beat by pokes and fast normals
 

VSC_Supreme

TYM's #1 L taker.
I still like Kotal but I'm feeling a little underwhelmed by him, especially the competitive variations. The tourney mode god ray feels really useless, I always prefer to put the god ray on myself, but with the tournament variation it's either far, or Farther away, and you can't amplify it to chase the opponent. Cheesing out some healing when the God ray is on can lead to my opponent approaching me and usually go for the grab under the god ray for the extra dmg and healing.

His other special moves feel underwhelming as well, Jaguars aren't as great as I thought, unless you amplify them to go through projectiles, but they're easily blocked and punished. The amplified disk into sun beam is so slow I can't find a use for it. The sun explosion is ok for pressuring but doesn't feel worth the slots. Same with the amplified disc hold, why would I spend meter to add more frames to my 22f projectile?

His Combo potential feels pretty low and I feel really punished at close range. I can't find any safe set-ups for his specials, and his short times buff from his command throw really doesn't feel worth the side switch.
 
he's cool but a lot of his moves are slow and unsafe
totems are powerful but it's basically free punish and like baraka's flag, it disappears after someone dealing krushing blows or fatal blow
currently, I struggle hard figuring him out
 

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
I just want to say a couple things...
Firstly, I think it's good that Kotal players are having a tough time figuring out how to play him best, whatever the variation. I think that promotes exploration and creativity.
Secondly, before people say "yes but there's a difference between 'figuring out how to play him best' and 'having a tough time with him because he just plain sucks'", please remember that the game is <1 week old.

I believe that over time, frustration and failure will become understanding and success
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
What options are YOU using? -- Seriously

Whiff punishing doesn't seem to be working for me which I was using heavily in MKX (Blood God main).
Tick throws don't work on button mashers and besides D3 & D4's range, i'm not getting rewarded much up close.
Staggered F3 works occasionally. But now that i'm in, what mid besides a poke will do me any justice? Yolo pokes into Kahn Cut or whiffed command grab is instant punish with standing 1 from anyone.
B2 is getting stuffed by forward advancing mids. F2 getting beat by pokes and fast normals
Being able to whiff punish in mkx but not mk11 means the broken run mechanic was too much of a crutch. You have options to punish mashing in f4 and F34. Literally everything you're complaining about is from you getting read and outfootsied. If you can't keep someone blocking for throws or abuse a half screen normal like f2, it's not the character at all. It's you being forced to play real footsies, not the mkx garbage.

After a week, I think kotal is a very solid high mid char.
 
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Being able to whiff punish in mkx but not mk11 means the broken run mechanic was too much of a crutch. You have options to punish mashing in f4 and F34.

After a week, I think kotal is a very solid high mid char.
Whiff punishing as in stepping back or back dashing then using an advancing MID (F1). Not implying the run mechanic cause then that would be Rush Down as opposed to whiff punishing.

Make no mistake here. I'm not discrediting the character or lack of knowledge on my behalf. I'm asking what "options" are YOU ALL using that are working

** Edit ** Just saw you said punish mashing F4 and F34

** 2nd Edit ** Insert Video footage.
I always see people stating things that in general sound optimistic. I would like to see work in progress
 
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Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
Premium Supporter
Kotal Kahn more like Total Kahmpost. He is amongst the biggest victims of NRS’ utterly, bafflingly poor implementation of the variation system in its current, neutered state. If his launcher was base and/or they had enough faith in their product to allow tourney legal custom variations so we could choose it every time, we might be singing a different tune.