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On your knees, day 6 Kotal Kahn impressions.

Totems need reworked entirely. They feel awful compared to how they were in X. Either they need to increase their duration significantly or reduce their stack to 1.
Maybe like amp for instant 3 totems.
He needs a faster mid.

F2 active frames should be buffed from 2 to 3.

B22 should be safe on block.

Sun Ray needs its recovery significantly lowered.

The floating timing when kotal hits some one with Kahn cut needs to be adjusted. So landing the follow up f12 is more intuitive. Right now it just feels odd. No other character I've encountered has this strange timing.

Sword cut needs a larger hit box. Its terrible for setting up the KB because of it. The opponent can just jump kick you, when clearly the sword touched them before they touched you.
Totaly agree.
 
Here are changes I would like to see:

f2: -1 or -2 on block so he can now stagger into d1 tick
f243 & f122: -8 on block instead being full combo punished for trying to opening characters up when he only gets a knockdown off of it.

s3 a mid: he needs a faster mid than 22frames to be able to follow up after a d1 without getting universally crushing blowed by an uppercut or poked out of his turn



Command grab:

•ability to control sides
•Ability tick throw off
s3
f1

Less recovery on god ray

Disk absorbs opponent projectile when amplified(like mkx)
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
F1 should be a mid, its like no brainer and wouldn't be even that amazing (11f) considering whats already in the game. F12 should be like -2 on block so there would be and option to stagger something / do d1 into grab.

F243 should be at worst -8 on block.

d1 should have bigger hitbox so it would be easier to tick off it.

B223 should be like 14f startup with no gap between 2 and 3.

Kotal Cut should be adjusted in timing so it would be more consistent on following up, it feels weird now.

CMG should not switch sides, its total bs atm, you have end combos with Kotal Cut in the corner.

Sun Ray should have like 15-20 less startup frames, its not even that great if you use it but as is now there is no way to even put it out safely.

Cat projectile should be way faster on startup and borderline safe on block, as is, it has very limited usage. Even characters which have projectile in basic moveset and are not really zoning characters have like 15-17F startup high projectiles. Kotals take a gear slot and is bordeline useless.

Totems need total rework, no idea how they passed QA in current state.

Parry could reflect projectiles, would be a nice touch.

I really enjoy Kotal, he is such a cool character but man he is bottom tier and you sometimes wonder after you got mopped "why do i even struggle so much" when there are characters like Geras / Sonya / Erron / Cassie which can do everything he can +a lot more and all of that way better then him. There is a reason you pretty much see nobody playing Kotal or picking him up.
 
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Pterodactyl

Jacqui main since Dead Alliance
What I feel Kotal needs:

Reduced recovery on:

Sun/God Ray
Ground pound
Panther dance
Totems

Hitbox fixed on:
F2 (Reactible 22f mid)

Add Kahn-cut as a base move to help all variations.

Do you all agree or disagree with me on suggested fixes? He struggles to do what many other characters do for free. Is it too early to ask for adjustments? I originally made the thread to get tech from other Kotal mains not to ask for buffs.
Sonya, Jacqui, Erron, Cassie, Geras and Baraka are ten times the character Kotal is.

It would help if practice allowed us to set AI to wake up special like X so I can practice combo set-ups into Sun-Ray. But since 11 doesn't have wakeup Special I don't know how to practice it other than online.
I think there are enough situations where you can smartly get a totem up, I don’t think they need to be that much faster

I think people think he’s worse than he is, honestly.

He only needs simple shit, controlling command grab side switch and another decent tick for example.
 
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I think there are enough situations where you can smartly get a totem up, I don’t think they need to be that much faster

I think people think he’s worse than he is, honestly.

He only needs simple shit, controlling command grab side switch and another decent tick for example.
How would that help his other variation? Unless you think they should just delete it.
 

RYX

I will downplay anything for 5 dollars
idk why you guys are asking for normal buffs. I honestly feel like he has a really appropriate setup for a defensive-minded footsie character in terms of normal attacks; he's got great reach, he's not horribly unsafe on most of his good pokes, and he can convert into some pretty nasty damage given the right setup.

pretty much all my issues with him are the same as Shao's; a lot of special moves are things I wouldn't look at twice because they just fail to perform, and I really don't feel like Kahn Cut needs to be a gear move (especially since it removes his best brutality). All I'd really want is some better start/recovery on a couple specials and then I'd be totally content. I don't mind wherever he ends up strength-wise as long as he feels good to play, but a lot of his moves just.. don't.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
I think there are enough situations where you can smartly get a totem up, I don’t think they need to be that much faster

I think people think he’s worse than he is, honestly.

He only needs simple shit, controlling command grab side switch and another decent tick for example.
I would love to be able to control sides after CG no doubt but his sunlight is far too slow, his zoning sucks and sunlight would fix that. His Kahn-cut should be base and God Ray needs to go.
He has so many issues it's not even a joke. I have thought Kotal is good for so long until I had to finally face it. He struggles up close, he struggles far away, his mids are slow AF compared to top tier, he has no real mix, both have gaps, his unblockable sword Pound is reactible on animation, he has far to many highs and the two that are fast have raptor arms syndrome and wiff after poke and pushback.
In almost every way this character falls short compared to high tier characters that have everything you need. I have experimented with almost the entire cast and aside from D'Vorah I do far better with them. Which is funny because everyone tells me my Kotal is good and advises me to pick someone else up because of his issues.
I'm not the only one, HoneyBee, Sonic, REO, and many other top players put Kotal along side D'Vorah at bottom tier. And it's not cuz certain people can't make them look good it's because of his tools compared to top tier is trash. Remember MK9 there was a Sheeva that made top 8 and beat REO's Kabal. So any character can be played by someone but the up hill battle is clear and Kotal has a disadvantage to many of the cast. He does have one good thing Range but many characters have that as well.

I won't give up cuz he is my main but I'd appreciate fixes for his problems and if others think he is so great I say to them, then make multiple top 8's with him vs Geras's, Sonya's, SubZero, Scorpion, Erron, Kabal, and Jax.
 

Qwark28

Jacks off to good voice acting
Kotal is not a good character, but he's not complete garbage either.

Not to sound like an asshole, and I will, but 99% of the posts I see here are completely clueless as to how this character actually performs in his matchups besides generic shit or the user just not knowing how to play footsies without crutches, which this character doesn't have, and wanting ridiculous buffs, most of which wouldn't even actually help him, just the specific situations they themselves are having trouble with.

I'll make an informative thread tomorrow or in a few days going over his issues and what type of matchups give him problems and exactly why.
 

Pterodactyl

Jacqui main since Dead Alliance
Kotal is not a good character, but he's not complete garbage either.

Not to sound like an asshole, and I will, but 99% of the posts I see here are completely clueless as to how this character actually performs in his matchups besides generic shit or the user just not knowing how to play footsies without crutches, which this character doesn't have, and wanting ridiculous buffs, most of which wouldn't even actually help him, just the specific situations they themselves are having trouble with.

I'll make an informative thread tomorrow or in a few days going over his issues and what type of matchups give him problems and exactly why.
You’re right, I see shit in here like people asking for better zoning options, on a footsie centric grappler..

Some of y’all are trying to make this dude god for some reason.

I would love to be able to control sides after CG no doubt but his sunlight is far too slow, his zoning sucks and sunlight would fix that. His Kahn-cut should be base and God Ray needs to go.
He has so many issues it's not even a joke. I have thought Kotal is good for so long until I had to finally face it. He struggles up close, he struggles far away, his mids are slow AF compared to top tier, he has no real mix, both have gaps, his unblockable sword Pound is reactible on animation, he has far to many highs and the two that are fast have raptor arms syndrome and wiff after poke and pushback.
In almost every way this character falls short compared to high tier characters that have everything you need. I have experimented with almost the entire cast and aside from D'Vorah I do far better with them. Which is funny because everyone tells me my Kotal is good and advises me to pick someone else up because of his issues.
I'm not the only one, HoneyBee, Sonic, REO, and many other top players put Kotal along side D'Vorah at bottom tier. And it's not cuz certain people can't make them look good it's because of his tools compared to top tier is trash. Remember MK9 there was a Sheeva that made top 8 and beat REO's Kabal. So any character can be played by someone but the up hill battle is clear and Kotal has a disadvantage to many of the cast. He does have one good thing Range but many characters have that as well.

I won't give up cuz he is my main but I'd appreciate fixes for his problems and if others think he is so great I say to them, then make multiple top 8's with him vs Geras's, Sonya's, SubZero, Scorpion, Erron, Kabal, and Jax.
His zoning is supposed to suck, he’s not a zoner and his ranged tools are more for counter zoning if anything.

Sure he can’t spam disc but the threat of that meaty ass KB if he catches you spamming shit full screen is a valuable deterrent.

Sunlight doesn’t really need to be fast for what you’re supposed to be using it for. It was a very situational tool in X and it’s the same here, use it wisely and carefully.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
His zoning is supposed to suck, he’s not a zoner and his ranged tools are more for counter zoning if anything.
I'm pretty sure everyone understands that he is not a zoner. Obviously his sunlight and knockdown from disk is counter zoning tools and not zoning tools. With that said I've stayed before that the KB is a one time only threat and ends after allowing him to be zoned all day in certain matchups almost by every top tier. He is clearly bad in that department. If his sunlight was safe to get out he would be holing his own against any zoner when played right.

Sure he can’t spam disc but the threat of that meaty ass KB if he catches you spamming shit full screen is a valuable deterrent.
It's one time use and does 22%. I honestly shouldn't have to explain why it's not the greatest compared to top tier. Just compare it to any top tier for instance Geras low sand is lightning fast and hits you anywhere on screen, faster, higher damage and has Krushing Blow as well and also leaves Geras with more options since Geras has a better toolkit in every way.
Sonya, scorpion, Sub Zero, nearly everyone has better far range tools than him.

Sunlight doesn’t really need to be fast for what you’re supposed to be using it for. It was a very situational tool in X and it’s the same here, use it wisely and carefully.
I completely dissagree. It shouldn't be that punishable and him having such a bad toolkit leaves him vulnerable when using it even after setups.
I believe it could be used for counter zoning and increased damage if it was made slightly more safe and I'm not the only one who feels this way, nearly every top player has Kotal on bottom tier and for good reason. I'm not sure what your motivation for keeping Kotal below average but I'd like to be proved wrong. I among many feel Kotal is lacking and needs minor adjustments to help him in a few ways to offset these obvious flaws.

If you feel Kotal is perfectly fine then by all means prove everyone wrong and make consistent top 8s with him vs characters that are better than him in every way.
I've never asked for anything crazy just some small adjustments to level the playing ground so he can be used competitively and see him make top 8s which nothing would make me happier. If he got rediculous buffs by all means they can be toned down or adjusted accordingly.
Barely anyone is using him and there is a good reason for that. Most top players feel they are at a huge disadvantage using him just like how Destoryer dropped Kollector for similar reasons and Kotal is definitely farworse off than Kollector.
 

Pterodactyl

Jacqui main since Dead Alliance
I'm pretty sure everyone understands that he is not a zoner. Obviously his sunlight and knockdown from disk is counter zoning tools and not zoning tools. With that said I've stayed before that the KB is a one time only threat and ends after allowing him to be zoned all day in certain matchups almost by every top tier. He is clearly bad in that department. If his sunlight was safe to get out he would be holing his own against any zoner when played right.


It's one time use and does 22%. I honestly shouldn't have to explain why it's not the greatest compared to top tier. Just compare it to any top tier for instance Geras low sand is lightning fast and hits you anywhere on screen, faster, higher damage and has Krushing Blow as well and also leaves Geras with more options since Geras has a better toolkit in every way.
Sonya, scorpion, Sub Zero, nearly everyone has better far range tools than him.


I completely dissagree. It shouldn't be that punishable and him having such a bad toolkit leaves him vulnerable when using it even after setups.
I believe it could be used for counter zoning and increased damage if it was made slightly more safe and I'm not the only one who feels this way, nearly every top player has Kotal on bottom tier and for good reason. I'm not sure what your motivation for keeping Kotal below average but I'd like to be proved wrong. I among many feel Kotal is lacking and needs minor adjustments to help him in a few ways to offset these obvious flaws.

If you feel Kotal is perfectly fine then by all means prove everyone wrong and make consistent top 8s with him vs characters that are better than him in every way.
I've never asked for anything crazy just some small adjustments to level the playing ground so he can be used competitively and see him make top 8s which nothing would make me happier. If he got rediculous buffs by all means they can be toned down or adjusted accordingly.
Barely anyone is using him and there is a good reason for that. Most top players feel they are at a huge disadvantage using him just like how Destoryer dropped Kollector for similar reasons and Kotal is definitely farworse off than Kollector.
It’s a one time threat but that has a lot of mileage. It does 22% but that’s alkaline a quarter of the healthbar in one hit. I find in sets you can get whole rounds with your opponent being conservative with their zoning out of fear until you tag them with it if you even need to at all.

Sunlight could be more safe but I don’t know if it really needs to be, I’m not arguing against any buffs but I just don’t think it’s vital to have that improved for his kit over others things.


Also don’t put words in other people mouth.

I never said he was fine, I just don’t think he’s as bad as people like to make him out to be. Making only comparison to top tiers is poor arguing as those characters are generally overtuned and need to be adjusted down instead of making everyone else potentially even more overtuned than them.
 

Stuck

Mid Tier Whore. 1 combo and a dream.
I’d be happy with a faster mid for up close or a faster zoning tool, quicker sunlight preferably. That would be of great help. Having a midrange footsies only character suffers against a large portion of the cast. It’s no surprise he’s considered bottom tier.
 
Sunlight could be more safe but I don’t know if it really needs to be, I’m not arguing against any buffs but I just don’t think it’s vital to have that improved for his kit over others things.
When ever you have a ability that is extremely difficult to use practically, then its bad game design. You have to look at it from a design stand point then compare it to similar mechanics that exist in game. Then ask yourself: Does the negative match the positives of the ability. Sun ray can heal a tiny bit and do a little damage but is the long recovery really a justified trade off?
 

Hellbringer

On your knees!
Premium Supporter
I dont know why u guys keep talking about the recovery of his sunray, i think thats the least of his problems.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
I dont know why u guys keep talking about the recovery of his sunray, i think thats the least of his problems.
It's just one of the things I want fixed. Most of all I want to be able to choose sides after CG and a better tool up close maybe a faster D4 as well. His Kahn-cut should be a base move and good Ray needs to go.
The sun Ray is very important. It is a real threat if it could be used without eating a full combo, with it out you can take basically no damage from projectiles on block and allows him to survive full Screen where otherwise he wouldn't.

His frames could be better but I'm fine with a few of his Special moves having less recovery and having a faster mid or hell maybe 12 and 22 shouldn't wiff up close after pushback, that would be great.
Parry buff shouldn't go away on hit.

But I'd obviously be fine with his frames being adjusted to be more in line with the cast but doubt he will get all that.
 
Kotal doesn't need better zoning. He isn't a zoning character.

He just needs a better d1 (better hitbox) for better tick throws and a fast mid string so you can jail with a d1 on hit. Maybe f122 could become a mid? Just make it so that he doesn't get torn apart by rushdown characters so much.

Something else (that isn't fully necessary) is to make his db4 less gimmicky and more usable. Better recovery frames OR a faster startup would be nice tbh.
 
I think TrueUnderDawgGaming gave a decent explanation why he is kinda bad . If u want to do ANYTHING ,that is not a command grab , u need to give up ur tempo and u STILL get PUNISHED. His zoning is not the best and he cant get up close at all (IMAGINE IF KAHN CUT WAS A BASE MOVE AND U COULD USE UR JAGUAR AMP TO GET CLOSE RIGHT ?????), and even when he does(by some miracle) get up close , he eather gets destroyed or combos u to get u out of the corner..... XD
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
F1 should be a mid its like no brainer in game where half of the cast has 9-11F advancing mids; with this neutral meta its like a must.

D1 should have a bigger hitbox.

CMG should'nt switch side. Kahn Cut could be a base move, so he can something else in that slot. I would also really like that parry would just reflect projectile.

Thats like the bare bones what he needs but is a good starting point, after a while we will know if thats enough or not.
 

Pterodactyl

Jacqui main since Dead Alliance
When ever you have a ability that is extremely difficult to use practically, then its bad game design. You have to look at it from a design stand point then compare it to similar mechanics that exist in game. Then ask yourself: Does the negative match the positives of the ability. Sun ray can heal a tiny bit and do a little damage but is the long recovery really a justified trade off?

You know what, you guys are right.

But the real insult here is that his base beam is like 100x more useful.

Not only does it immediately start healing you, amplifying it makes it track the enemy for(in most cases) unavoidable damage.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Ok week 3+ Kotal thoughts:

Best way to use Kotal:

Sunlight: use this after F34 and 34 on thier knockdown. (Punishable by some)

Sword Pound: is 41f start-up so it's best used at max range after conditioning F2. (punishable)

Best Normals:
F34, F4, B4, D1 tick.

These wiff:
1, 12, 122, 2, 22, 221, F1, F12, F122, F2, F24, B2, D1 and D3. (All but two of his normals have hitbox issues)

Neutral based character, stay out of thier range to limit thier options and give you the upper hand. Wiff Punishers is his entire game plan.
 
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