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On your knees, day 6 Kotal Kahn impressions.

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Any videos of d1 parry? How does it work? Highs, mids, lows or all of the above? I’m assuming it’s plus on parry?
I tested it hoping it was similar to Kenshi's Parry in MKX. It's not, you are at zero advantage after successfully landing a party. If an opponent uses a fast 3 hit string and you parry first hit the next moves still hit you and you don't have enough time to put it out 3 times in quick succession unless I'm doing it wrong. Can someone show us what you are doing with parry by adding a video here?
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
Does it even prevent special cancels? I know in MKX there were a few strings with a gap right at the end where you could parry the last hit and it would prevent the special usually tagged on the end from coming out. (good for flowchart Lui Kangs and such)
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
What about on string that usually end with significant advantage? Like Scorpion's 212 has a gap before he brings down that big flaming superman punch. Usually that leaves him plus enough on block to enforce his next attack, will Kotal's parry let you punish or at least take your turn if you parry the last hit? (Can you even activate parry in the gap?)

Sorry for all the questions. Gonna be stuck at work late and know I'll forget before I can lab it later.
 

Stuck

Mid Tier Whore. 1 combo and a dream.
Speaking of Parry being better than in MKX -- may be it is me, but I struggle to activate parry in time when somebody like Scarlet or Kano is zonning me. Even at full screen it is damn hard.



Everything except jumps and fatal blows, I believe.
Advantage differs based on the move you parried. Usually it is at least neutral, but for fast attacks like d1 or s1 it could be slightly minus after successful parry
But who ever does single hitting attacks (except for Kotal himself who sometimes throws f4 and s4)? Usually you parry 1st attack and then you either get staggered or eat a mixup from followup. There is an option to flawless block+reversal the 2nd hit of the string opponent is throwing at you, but good luck doing that
I’m pretty sure it took me 20 plus times to successfully flawless block and launch during tutorials. Trying that shit online might be a little overzealous. Every time I’ve accidentally activated parry and got hit, it simply powered me up and their string continued. Seems like it’s just meant for zoning. Thought I might be missing something. I’m terrible with it as zoning defense too.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
What about on string that usually end with significant advantage? Like Scorpion's 212 has a gap before he brings down that big flaming superman punch. Usually that leaves him plus enough on block to enforce his next attack, will Kotal's parry let you punish or at least take your turn if you parry the last hit? (Can you even activate parry in the gap?)

Sorry for all the questions. Gonna be stuck at work late and know I'll forget before I can lab it later.
Good questions!
I'll try but it's 14f startup so I doubt we can get it in most gaps being 7-12 frames. I'll test it, is there any particular string you want me to test?

As for will it let you reversal after parry, no from what I can tell.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
What about on string that usually end with significant advantage? Like Scorpion's 212 has a gap before he brings down that big flaming superman punch. Usually that leaves him plus enough on block to enforce his next attack, will Kotal's parry let you punish or at least take your turn if you parry the last hit? (Can you even activate parry in the gap?)

Sorry for all the questions. Gonna be stuck at work late and know I'll forget before I can lab it later.
212 has a gap, you can simply flawless block it and launch it.
 

Saviorself

Noob Saibot
Some of my thoughts after playing maybe 100 matches vs sub/noob/Jax/erron

  • He really crumbles up close
  • lack of a fast mid makes his whiff punish shimmy pretty lackluster
  • “okay” from far range as long as his disc KB is available, afterwards he’s lackluster
  • d1 tick grab is satisfying
  • d1 hit -> slight delay into command grab is wild inconsistent. It’s suppose to catch counter d1 pokes but Kotal gets hit sometimes
  • f24 is amazing albeit a bit slow, very punishable if you finish the string (f243) but it catches people trying to shimmy a lot
  • sunbeam’s recovery is absolute balls. Erron blacks puddle is so much stronger and he has tools to lock people down in it. Kotal is lucky he doesn’t get his face smashed in by quick advancing moves once he throws it out.
  • very hard to use f12 and b22 in the neutral. The first hit being high really takes away their range advantages. B22 is a bit better due enormous range but still gets counter poked all day
Kotal seems weak to rushdown and extreme zoning, his mid range game is decent but with no fast mids he Can’t impose his will at all. The cat variations are also total trash and a huge waste in his potential.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Some of my thoughts after playing maybe 100 matches vs sub/noob/Jax/erron

  • He really crumbles up close
  • lack of a fast mid makes his whiff punish shimmy pretty lackluster
  • “okay” from far range as long as his disc KB is available, afterwards he’s lackluster
  • d1 tick grab is satisfying
  • d1 hit -> slight delay into command grab is wild inconsistent. It’s suppose to catch counter d1 pokes but Kotal gets hit sometimes
  • f24 is amazing albeit a bit slow, very punishable if you finish the string (f243) but it catches people trying to shimmy a lot
  • sunbeam’s recovery is absolute balls. Erron blacks puddle is so much stronger and he has tools to lock people down in it. Kotal is lucky he doesn’t get his face smashed in by quick advancing moves once he throws it out.
  • very hard to use f12 and b22 in the neutral. The first hit being high really takes away their range advantages. B22 is a bit better due but still gets counter poked all day
Kotal seems weak to rushdown and extreme zoning, his mid range game is decent but with no fast mids he Can’t impose his will at all. The cat variations are also total trash and by huge waste in his potential.
He has 14 and 15f mids in sun choke and F4, respectively.

you're not supposed to delay command grab after d1 on hit. It's a frametrap, +10 into 14f. You're only getting hit because you're delaying it.

F24 is just fine for a mid that reaches further than jump distance, anti airs and leads to 330+ dmg.

Sun ray is out of certain knockdowns or when the OP has 1-2% hp, nothing else, same as mkx.

IDK how you use F12/B22, but I'm guessing as pressure tools, since you mentioned being D1d. They're not. Use them as whiff punishers and you'll see how they're supposed to work
 
I don’t have a video, and I probably should have been clearer as the parry is circumstantial.

Both scenarios I’ve found success in:

D1 into parry, (the opponent almost always D1s etc when you’re swapping pokes), then D1 into tic throw.

D1 into parry (the pesky D2 opponent leaves themselves open...unless I just have been getting luck with 1,2 combos and they weren’t blocking).

His D1 is fast enough for the first situation. I’ve only tested in online play so some factors could be at play here.

I don’t always do the set up (if you can call it that) because it’s a lot of quick button presses for not a lot of payout, but it does work with the mindgame scenario.

The only reason I know this is because I’ve caught people waiting for me to D1 parry.

Not totally useful, but it’s worked for me and has its place with my style.
 

Saviorself

Noob Saibot
He has 14 and 15f mids in sun choke and F4, respectively.

you're not supposed to delay command grab after d1 on hit. It's a frametrap, +10 into 14f. You're only getting hit because you're delaying it.

F24 is just fine for a mid that reaches further than jump distance, anti airs and leads to 330+ dmg.

Sun ray is out of certain knockdowns or when the OP has 1-2% hp, nothing else, same as mkx.

IDK how you use F12/B22, but I'm guessing as pressure tools, since you mentioned being D1d. They're not. Use them as whiff punishers and you'll see how they're supposed to work
thanks for the insight. i was delaying cmd grab after d1 tooo long, it really helps me out now i understand the timing. I have been using b22 as get in tools but ill try to use them as punishing tools.....now whats your opinion on getting rush downed by other characters?
 

KingJerm731

Psn: kingjermx
Not sure why everyone is crying. Sure, he could use a few quality of life buffs like f3 tick throw (fixed to be able to jump out obviously) and maybe some better oki. I’ve started having some decent success with him and I think with slight adjustments he’s gonna be top tier. He’s just below that now. Ascension just gets fucked by hard zoning.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
quality of life buffs like f3 tick throw (fixed to be able to jump out obviously) and maybe some better oki.
His tick throws off F3 was nerfed and removed. opponent can jump s1/D1 tick now it's not a mid anymore. I'm glad for that cuz it was kinda broke.

But he needs a way to get Sun Ray and Totems out safley even if it's linked to a combo. That's my biggest concern with Kotal the other is that he has no close up game besides pokesbut I can deal with that since he's good at mid range. Almost every Special move he has is full screen punishable even when using after HKD. Sun zero can get up and walk full screen and combo Kotal after Sun/God Ray since it's recovery and startup is incredibly slow.
 

KingJerm731

Psn: kingjermx
Sub is a tough matchup it seems but I don’t see what you’re saying about up close. It’s pretty easy to tick d1 or d1, f4 for people disrespecting. D1 wall back f3 is also hilarious. And when it hits, command grab. You’ll also catch a lot of people by stopping f24 or f2 and mixing that I with the whole string. People start overthinking shit after they get hit by it or thrown out of negative 7 because they were waiting for the other hit. Against most characters you can throw out sunlight after sunchoke and play neutral around it. If you manage to get them blocking or throw in the sunlight, the damage is fucked. You just have to figure out how to make people respect you. I don’t think it’s difficult.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Sub is a tough matchup it seems but I don’t see what you’re saying about up close. It’s pretty easy to tick d1 or d1, f4 for people disrespecting. D1 wall back f3 is also hilarious. And when it hits, command grab. You’ll also catch a lot of people by stopping f24 or f2 and mixing that I with the whole string. People start overthinking shit after they get hit by it or thrown out of negative 7 because they were waiting for the other hit. Against most characters you can throw out sunlight after sunchoke and play neutral around it. If you manage to get them blocking or throw in the sunlight, the damage is fucked. You just have to figure out how to make people respect you. I don’t think it’s difficult.
I've been trying to say these to people for 5 days now. I don't get why it's so hard to understand how you have to play in this game considering how dry it is.
 

cavemold

BIG D POLE .
Some of my thoughts after playing maybe 100 matches vs sub/noob/Jax/erron

  • He really crumbles up close
  • lack of a fast mid makes his whiff punish shimmy pretty lackluster
  • “okay” from far range as long as his disc KB is available, afterwards he’s lackluster
  • d1 tick grab is satisfying
  • d1 hit -> slight delay into command grab is wild inconsistent. It’s suppose to catch counter d1 pokes but Kotal gets hit sometimes
  • f24 is amazing albeit a bit slow, very punishable if you finish the string (f243) but it catches people trying to shimmy a lot
  • sunbeam’s recovery is absolute balls. Erron blacks puddle is so much stronger and he has tools to lock people down in it. Kotal is lucky he doesn’t get his face smashed in by quick advancing moves once he throws it out.
  • very hard to use f12 and b22 in the neutral. The first hit being high really takes away their range advantages. B22 is a bit better due enormous range but still gets counter poked all day
Kotal seems weak to rushdown and extreme zoning, his mid range game is decent but with no fast mids he Can’t impose his will at all. The cat variations are also total trash and a huge waste in his potential.
Sunbeam is good in corner..... He has some very good damage if you cna get the totems out.
 

KingJerm731

Psn: kingjermx
I've been trying to say these to people for 5 days now. I don't get why it's so hard to understand how you have to play in this game considering how dry it is.
You have to make people respect you. It’s not mkx kotal where you can just face roll strings. You actually have to play a fighting game! Spacing, mids that don’t combo for 47%! Obviously he’s horrible . Glad you’re here dude haha.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Sub is a tough matchup it seems but I don’t see what you’re saying about up close. It’s pretty easy to tick d1 or d1, f4 for people disrespecting. D1 wall back f3 is also hilarious. And when it hits, command grab. You’ll also catch a lot of people by stopping f24 or f2 and mixing that I with the whole string. People start overthinking shit after they get hit by it or thrown out of negative 7 because they were waiting for the other hit. Against most characters you can throw out sunlight after sunchoke and play neutral around it. If you manage to get them blocking or throw in the sunlight, the damage is fucked. You just have to figure out how to make people respect you. I don’t think it’s difficult.
You can't get sunlight out, Sub was an example, I've labbed this in practice mode and had Kotal block after Amp CG after combo and like I said almost every character can wakeup normally walk up almost full screen and use starter to punish. It's not just Sub zero slide, can't imagine how punishable it would be if we had wakeups like X.

If you are getting it out it's only because it's day 7 and your opponent's don't know the matchup and are simply not punishing what is clearly punishable.

Conditioning can be applied to literally the worst move in the game, using that logic any move could be used if you make the fear another response. The problem I'm dealing with here is that I can punish sun ray on reaction to the animation with multiple characters. There is literally no reason to have moves he this negative on recovery.

I never said I believed Kotal to be a bad character. I think every character is at least viable not counting the horrible tournament variations but Kotal is lacking where many characters are not.

I'm saying he lacks close range tools, F2 is a long range tool, F12 is a mid range tool and in this meta you should not be using 12 or 22 after any hit, there is too much pushback from many moves and they start high leaving you vulnerable to Universal Krushing Blow or any number of mids like the hand full of characters with a 9f mid into conversations and or restands.

Despite all of this I'm not asking for his normals to be speed up or him to gain a close range tool, I feel it's a much needed weakness considering his range and how powerful it can be once momentum is built. What I am asking for is his Sun Ray/God Ray to have a bit less recovery so it can be set up off combo or HKD without being punished.
It would be a whole different story if I wanted his sun ray to be safe bare without setup.

I wasn't being rude to you earlier I simply corrected something said. You said he needed QOL BUFFS for his F3 tick and the opponent needed to be able to jump out. All I did was explain it has been removed from F3 and the ones remaining s1/D1 tick are escapable and not mids anymore. I was completely fine with this. Name any other character with 4 special moves that are punishable full screen after setup! Kotal is the only one I know of in this game and in MKX his totems and sunlight where safe off setup, they where not free by any means, I won neutral I get setup and that's what I'm asking for here.
 
This is what I found, but with Scorpion, and I got a real shit Scorpion.

I just don't understand where Kotal is supposed to live. Up close everything he does is stuff. From afar he gets zoned incredibly easy, especially thanks to his low and slow jump. Totem and God Ray are both incredibly unsafe and are basically a free punish. Yes, F4 and F34 are good, but that's not enough to make a character.

I'm glad some people are finding their way with him. Any videos of gameplay would be really appreciated so I can see what I've been doing wrong. I ducked in on Quarks stream a few times, but I'd like to see some other play styles as well.
You left out mid-range. That’s where he lives. It’s like people complaining that the command grab throws them too far away. It leaves them in perfect range for F2 or dash F3. Because of that and other things I think it’s shown in his design how he’s meant to be played.

The same thing happened to me with scorpion but if that’s the case you’re right to assume the character may just have a learning curve.

It’s tough though. Hopefully as you say we’ll start seeing more streamers using him so we can get a better understanding of a high-level kotal.

I think TrueTalent on YT has had a lot of success with him and he lives in neutral when he plays him.
 

Fyre

Noob
What options are YOU using? -- Seriously

Whiff punishing doesn't seem to be working for me which I was using heavily in MKX (Blood God main).
Tick throws don't work on button mashers and besides D3 & D4's range, i'm not getting rewarded much up close.
Staggered F3 works occasionally. But now that i'm in, what mid besides a poke will do me any justice? Yolo pokes into Kahn Cut or whiffed command grab is instant punish with standing 1 from anyone.
B2 is getting stuffed by forward advancing mids. F2 getting beat by pokes and fast normals
When playing I try get the opponent trained on blocking low and then when they do this you start going for the F4 tick throw. If you play against button mashes likelihood is they don't understand footsies so you try to keep them at a distance, I like to use F3 or F43 to keep them away. This is easier said than done so if you can't then you are just going to have to block and use 12 to punish. Some tips for kotal I have learned; B22 then cancel into the unblockable, if they start punishing this then cancel it into the parry. 221 is good in the corner too as people don't expect it to hit low and it can combo in the corner. I agree kotal isn't very good and he definitely needs some buffs. I personally B223 should give us a free totem/beam call on hit. If it is blocked you can still call totems or a beam but it can be punished. It wouldn't be op as on hit B223 put a lots of distance between you and the opponent so it's not like you could call a totem and get a mad combo straight after. It would add pressure to the opponent as well as they will have to guess what you will do after the string.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Premium Supporter
If u really wanna setup with sunray u can cancel 34 into sunray, on hit its safe and 34 is easy hitconfirmable.
U kinda dont wanna play him like in mkx where u just go in their face and expect to be safe with all ur string, like other say u have to make more reads, use his unsafe strings only to punish not to pressure. If they block unsafe strings end them with parry, confuse your opponent, once they start respecting u too much its gg.