NRS and their garbage patches (aka hotfixes)

[Marlow]

Despite all that I think at the end of the day Raiden is better off equipping anything else instead of it.

Agreed. I'm just saying it's not a useless move. If you really want to play Raiden with a DOT option, you can and you can do just fine with him. I actually think Raiden is a pretty good realization of what the variation system has to offer.

 

[Deleted member 64931]

Agreed. I'm just saying it's not a useless move. If you really want to play Raiden with a DOT option, you can and you can do just fine with him. I actually think Raiden is a pretty good realization of what the variation system has to offer.

yeah that jo push really high lights how they have no idea what the fuck they’re doing with variations.

 

[Obly]

A variation system is just fine in theory; it means more variety for the players in how a character can be played. What could be wrong with that?

MK11 shows that a variation system built on custom ability swapping is pretty darn hard to pull off in practice though. Cool idea in theory, but too hard to balance across a large number of characters. Among the problems we've seen:

• Some characters got a complete base toolkit, so their abilities just tweak play style to suit. Others got a bare bones base kit and depend on certain abilities just to be viable.
• Some character designs naturally lend themselves to lots of different useful abilities. Others you can tell they were scraping the barrel for ideas, and are filled with a lot more trash abilities --OR--
• To create more abilities to pick from, they took strings and special move options that should have been base and made them into abilities instead. Except the best characters did get their special move options as base and don't have to use slots just to make their toolkit work.
• Inconsistency and unfairness in slot costs across characters. Some insanely good abilities only cost 1 slot whereas some just-decent abilities cost 2.

There's a lot to like about custom variations, but imo the cons outweigh the pros. I personally don't want to see this system come back.

But I'd like to see a return to preset variations, probably 2-3 at the most, that have been carefully created to be complete, competitive, and with a lot of move versatility built in. To make it work better, I'd be fine with it if a game released with just 1 variation each, then other variations get added over time as the meta develops and the devs get a better sense of what characters need in order to be competitive.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I actually think Raiden is a pretty good realization of what the variation system has to offer.

Honestly, how?

 

[Marlow]

Honestly, how?

Clear optimal variation in TW, but with other viable options based on which moves you personally want to use. TW and Raijin are both viable options. You can also swap in a move like Lightning Storm, or mix and match things like Quick Charge, rolling thunder, and some of his others. You can make 3-5 variations that would all be viable, even if they're not technically optimal. Depending on what you personally want from the character (DOT, better anti-air, mobility of teleport, reversal of Quick Charge, safe pokes from QC+EC or Lightning Storm), you can find a way to have a viable Raiden that incorporates those things. Sometimes that means tradeoffs, but I think that's fine.

To me that's what customization should be about. I get to tweak a character's moves based on my preferences, and still have a viable character to play as.

 

[Marlow]

yeah that jo push really high lights how they have no idea what the fuck they’re doing with variations.

Jo Push sucks, but all they need to do is make it one slot and it's fine. Raiden also has plenty of other moves that work in different variations.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Clear optimal variation in TW, but with other viable options based on which moves you personally want to use. TW and Raijin are both viable options. You can also swap in a move like Lightning Storm, or mix and match things like Quick Charge, rolling thunder, and some of his others. You can make 3-5 variations that would all be viable, even if they're not technically optimal. Depending on what you personally want from the character (DOT, better anti-air, mobility of teleport, reversal of Quick Charge, safe pokes from QC+EC or Lightning Storm), you can find a way to have a viable Raiden that incorporates those things. Sometimes that means tradeoffs, but I think that's fine.

To me that's what customization should be about. I get to tweak a character's moves based on my preferences, and still have a viable character to play as.

Alright, fair points, but what bothers me most about Raiden's customs is how largely uninteresting they are or flat out bad like Jo Push. Even when the game just released and was fresh running through Raiden's customs was boring and disappointing.

Then I look at a character like Spawn and I'm having trouble holding all of his good or interesting moves because he's got so many ways he can build and be both effective and engaging. Also Spawn is loaded with tools that are unique to him which helps immensely. Raiden's only unique tool is Quick Charge which is probably my favourite move of his. If he had more things like that I would feel differently.

Having put tons of time into both characters I just don't get any of those feelings from Raiden which really sucks to admit.
I think Fujin smokes him on that area too.

 

[Marlow]

@Obly I always wonder what MK11 would look like without the variation stuff. Would they have basically just picked one of the starter variations for each character, and mostly just cut the excess moves (For example, Raiden would just have his TW move set)? Or would every character just have all or most of their special moves from the game worked in? I tend to think the first.

At this point, while I'm fine with the variation system for MK11, I hope their next game they scrap it.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I always wonder what MK11 would look like without the variation stuff. Would they have basically just picked one of the starter variations for each character, and mostly just cut the excess moves (For example, Raiden would just have his TW move set)? Or would every character just have all or most of their special moves from the game worked in? I tend to think the first.

The character kits would likely look nothing like what we have now, even variationless, and characters wouldn't necessarily end up "complete" or anything by comparison to how people feel about characters in this game. We wouldn't have condensed versions of a starter variation because it would have been crafted with a different strategy in mind altogether, which also means the wouldn't have all of their moves jammed into one place either since most of said moves wouldn't exist in the first place.

I've given this speech before but I think it's really important to repeat because I know a lot of players believe that all of the game's problems suddenly vanish under these conditions because they miss MK9.

All we can do is speculate of course.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Kustoms system could be fine (more than fine, I was excited for it!), if someone actually bothered to balance it to promote variety. This however starts from having people with capable core kits, and not have to spend their slots picking up bare essentials (while certain other preferential-treatment characters get everything for free)... so we're way past that ship.

Without the willingness to go through that effort, we'd indeed be better served with ready presets. Pick between zoner Shang or ninja Shang, done, we get two looks at the same character. Why waste time creating code and animations for abilities you know you'll purposefully leave so crap no-one will use them?

 

[NaCl man]

Obviously. Why else would they keep doing it? Balance, sales, players, support, competition. Literally everything is better now. Its not even a contest unless you can't seperate reality from your nostalgia. There's no variation in MKX/11 as shitty or incomplete as MK9 low tiers, and there's been none as broke or outright unfair (save a couple in MKX, looking at Tanya, Alien and Quan) as the MK9 high tiers. Hasn't even been a patch as damaging as the MK9/X era ones. The Geras / Erron nerfs maybe, but both of those characters still work fine. .. THANKS TO THE VARIATION SYSTEM.

What I've noticed though in mkx and 11 is there is a variation that gives you no reason to play the others. For example In mkx if you play sub why would you not use grand master. Some had 2 good ones but there was always 1 that was better and I don't think it worked as intended. Same with 11 1st when they had set variations .Some of the variations were ok but there is that one that null and voids the others.
Same with customs there seems to be set customs to pick where there is no point using anything else.

In mkx It was sold as if you like character A you can use different versions for different match ups or in 11 set your character to your playstyle and that hasn't worked imo.

 

[theotherguy]

What I've noticed though in mkx and 11 is there is a variation that gives you no reason to play the others. For example In mkx if you play sub why would you not use grand master. Some had 2 good ones but there was always 1 that was better and I don't think it worked as intended. Same with 11 1st when they had set variations .Some of the variations were ok but there is that one that null and voids the others.
Same with customs there seems to be set customs to pick where there is no point using anything else.

But this has, was, and always will be the case. It was stated many times when the whole custom variations was known to be a thing. People will find the best combination and that would be the new default. In a few cases there might be certain situations where changing one or more moves might help in certain matchups.

But how is that any different to a game with no variations but people pick the top tier characters? If you're playing to win, you give yourself the best chance at it. You'd still choose the best option to get a win, except that now you can't complain that variations are crap, you have to complain that the character is crap.

 

[NaCl man]

But this has, was, and always will be the case. It was stated many times when the whole custom variations was known to be a thing. People will find the best combination and that would be the new default. In a few cases there might be certain situations where changing one or more moves might help in certain matchups.

But how is that any different to a game with no variations but people pick the top tier characters? If you're playing to win, you give yourself the best chance at it. You'd still choose the best option to get a win, except that now you can't complain that variations are crap, you have to complain that the character is crap.

Yeah I agree. But I think it would be better if they just had complete characters. Not much difference i guess

 

[Deleted member 64931]

Jo Push sucks, but all they need to do is make it one slot and it's fine. Raiden also has plenty of other moves that work in different variations.

There's no reason to chose it over storm cell. They also changed its hit reaction when they put it a tournament variation and replaced superman with it. Any build with the teleport should be played as a keep away character which make superman necessary for space. Teleport should also be a one slot move when bionic bounce remains one slot. Ultimate build would be teleport, quick charge, storm cell or teleport, quick charge electric burst.

 

[John Grizzly]

Have they fixed her mask falling off every single time?

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but that's intentional. Some characters have items that fall off after taking big hits. Marduk and Jin's hoods come down, Shaheen's turban flies off etc.

 

[Vhozite]

But this has, was, and always will be the case. It was stated many times when the whole custom variations was known to be a thing. People will find the best combination and that would be the new default. In a few cases there might be certain situations where changing one or more moves might help in certain matchups.

But how is that any different to a game with no variations but people pick the top tier characters? If you're playing to win, you give yourself the best chance at it. You'd still choose the best option to get a win, except that now you can't complain that variations are crap, you have to complain that the character is crap.

This is all 100% true, which is why I’m not bothered by there being optimal builds you always run if you want to win.

However, i don’t think this fact should be used as an excuse to not even try making other options worth picking. Some of the bad options are really bad, and it’s immediately obvious to any half decent player let alone a dev.

 

[Obly]

But this has, was, and always will be the case. It was stated many times when the whole custom variations was known to be a thing. People will find the best combination and that would be the new default. In a few cases there might be certain situations where changing one or more moves might help in certain matchups.

But how is that any different to a game with no variations but people pick the top tier characters? If you're playing to win, you give yourself the best chance at it. You'd still choose the best option to get a win, except that now you can't complain that variations are crap, you have to complain that the character is crap.

What's interesting though is that this seems most true mainly at the tippy-top tier: Jacqui (Goo-Graded), Cetrion (quake, cyclone, port), Fujin (Airsenal Kloud Walker). One of the reasons they're so good is because there is such an extremely effective, optimal way to play them (based around their "fuck neutral" abilities mainly). Those three characters play the way they probably would've been designed if there were no variations, if the devs had just wanted everyone to be optimal.

But just below them, you actually do see some real variety even in high-level play. Sure, some characters always equip one certain ability considered essential (like Liu's low fireball, Geras's quick sand, Noob's slide)--which really just shows those moves should've been base. But even with that, for example, Tweedy and Grr play Geras very differently and both do well. Scar plays a buzzsaw-focused Lao, when others focus on orbiting hat or spiritual possession. Shang plays very differently depending on whether you focus on ground eruption or not. You still see both dash-cancel and air-dash Kabal. Erron Black has several different good builds that you see in competition.

I know a lot of people think every character should be buffed to the level of the tippy-top tier, but it's really that mid-high tier that feels like the sweet spot where a variation system actually shines. So I'd like to see the tippy-top brought down and everyone else brought up to meet there in the middle.

That said, I'm still not sure custom variations work well as a system. I'd rather see 2-3 optimized presets. But I mean optimized by design. Most of the presets we got in MK11--stripped down base kits given 1-2 good abilities plus a crappy filler move for "balance"--were the worst of all worlds.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Have they fixed her mask falling off every single time?

not yet

 

[BarakaTile]

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but that's intentional. Some characters have items that fall off after taking big hits. Marduk and Jin's hoods come down, Shaheen's turban flies off etc.

I'm not trolling, I hate it. It's not even the original mask but it's the closest you can get to classic Kunimitsu.
And it falls off with ease.

 

[Ashesfall]

I'm not trolling, I hate it. It's not even the original mask but it's the closest you can get to classic Kunimitsu.
And it falls off with ease.

I am totally with you. I also "hate" it, to a point I don't play her in T7 at all.

If Bryan is doing his low soccer kick (qcb3) one time(!), and hits her legs/feet, the mask falls off ... stupid!

Imagine watching a classic slasher movie and with a little hit by the "victim", the "iconic" mask is falling of and stays of, for the rest of the movie ...

I know that there are many people who don't like it too.
(Why can they not add a second mask that can't fall off? Would be sooooo easy to add. It would cost me 5-10 minutes to do it ...)

If MK is doing it in the future, I will be not "amused" ... a damaged model with "scratches" is ok tho.
(Ninjas without a mask in MK11 look like "trash" ... losing all identity.)

PS: She still has her classic outfit tho

(sorry for off-topic )

 

[Eddy Wang]

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but that's intentional. Some characters have items that fall off after taking big hits. Marduk and Jin's hoods come down, Shaheen's turban flies off etc.

Her masks falls off even if she is kicked on the leg.
Items in tekken only fall if they reach critical state or after a number of certain hits. Kuni's mask can fall off from a single jab.

 

[Vslayer]

Why do people say that tho?
I mean a lot of Tekken players didn't like Tekken Vanilla.
And now with Tekken7, almost everyone who plays it, likes or loves it.
(I am just a little tired of all the Leroy and Fahk "hate", even tho they got massively nerfed - Fahk for example has the worst sidestep in the game ...)

Games can evolve (If a developer wants it tho), new mechanics/systems and new variation moves etc. all this could give that extra little depth people are asking for.

I like them both but when it comes to gameplay MK11 feels a little "shallow".
But I also wouldn't compare Tekken7 to MK11, they are to me to different.

My final "deadline" to see if NRS is listening, will be by the end of the pro league/movie is running.
I think by then we can assume MK11 is in "maintenance" mode.

For me, it's never too late to "adjust" a game, just watch MKX to MKXL.

PS: my latest Kunimitsu picture:
View attachment 18046
Beautiful 3D fighting game.

Obviously, I'm meming, but if they want to truly 'fix' the game, they need to overhaul it, and make some character changes and take it seriously. The last patch was a downright joke and when Tigerzz wanted to bring it to NRS' attention they banned him lmfao. And then he won a tourney with Sheeva.

Honestly, everything about this game's life cycle has been ridiculous and it's like they don't care, which leads me to believe that most of their experienced employees are working on a new project.

 

[supahotbean]

there is no ballence when it comes to customs so of corse you would want opick the best variation. why pick a move that will ligitamly negavtile evffect you since it was never actually designed correctly. Ex: mkx and the 3 vartions for sub. all were viable ( at the last build of the game)

Agreed. I'm just saying it's not a useless move. If you really want to play Raiden with a DOT option, you can and you can do just fine with him. I actually think Raiden is a pretty good realization of what the variation system has to offer.

the dot hits the opponent once I believe and the dot for enhanced hits them three times

 

[supahotbean]

Jo Push sucks, but all they need to do is make it one slot and it's fine. Raiden also has plenty of other moves that work in different variations.

if they make it one slot it would be a legitimately waste of a move. why equipt joe push when you already have a move that does the same thing

 

[supahotbean]

Kustoms system could be fine (more than fine, I was excited for it!), if someone actually bothered to balance it to promote variety. This however starts from having people with capable core kits, and not have to spend their slots picking up bare essentials (while certain other preferential-treatment characters get everything for free)... so we're way past that ship.

Without the willingness to go through that effort, we'd indeed be better served with ready presets. Pick between zoner Shang or ninja Shang, done, we get two looks at the same character. Why waste time creating code and animations for abilities you know you'll purposefully leave so crap no-one will use them?

exactly. they say there is character diversity in each character you play, but all it does is just limit you to pick one optimal variation like mk9.