NRS and their garbage patches (aka hotfixes)

[trufenix]

What I've noticed though in mkx and 11 is there is a variation that gives you no reason to play the others. For example In mkx if you play sub why would you not use grand master. Some had 2 good ones but there was always 1 that was better and I don't think it worked as intended. Same with 11 1st when they had set variations .Some of the variations were ok but there is that one that null and voids the others.
Same with customs there seems to be set customs to pick where there is no point using anything else.

In mkx It was sold as if you like character A you can use different versions for different match ups or in 11 set your character to your playstyle and that hasn't worked imo.

You are describing a problem with fighting games, not variations, unless you know of a fighting game without tiers. The second you make players choose between Scorpion with a fireball and Scorpion with flip kick, you are creating two different characters no matter what the life bar and story mode says. First Scorpion (Fireball / Flipkick) v. Sub Zero match, the comparison is going to be drawn and on a long enough timeline a tier will be established. It has to be.

That is the nature of any game with competitive content. I should hope it is proven by now that there is no way to create two different things in a fighting game and guarantee balance, whether they are variations, or interactibles, or v-skills, or assists, or rage arts, or anti-air attacks. Games like skullgirls give you a million customization options for your team and assist layouts, but there are still tiers. Still combinations that you have more reasons to play than others.

The variation system is a success because in both games that have it, EVERY single character has at least one viable variation meaning literally EVERY character is viable. No other MK can claim that, and only a couple other fighters period can claim that. Yeah, you may be forced to use Ice clone Sub Zero to make top 8, but thats a whole lot better than MK9 where you couldn't even pick Sub Zero in tournament unless you were as good as Brady or DJT.

 

[Marlow]

the dot hits the opponent once I believe and the dot for enhanced hits them three times

From starting screen away, if the opponent doesn't move they get hit with 8% damage. Seems like it does about 1% per tick, with the normal version having 12 ticks and amped having 20 ticks. Regular version will go about 3/4 screen, amped version goes full screen. If you're full screen and do the amped, and the opponent sits back full screen the entire time, they get hit with 6% damage.

18f startup, 34 frame recovery. So depending how you end your combo you can set up some safe 2%-8% depending on screen position and what the opponent does. Nothing world beating, but not worthless.

why equipt joe push when you already have a move that does the same thing

Because you could pair Jo Push with Teleport, and then you'd have a build that would keep Summon Lightning while still having a launcher and a teleport. Basically Thunder Wave, except with slightly less damage but a better anti-air.


Variations don't always have to be about crazy different optimizations. Sometimes they can just be about trying to find some slightly different utility for your character.

 

[trufenix]

Yeah I agree. But I think it would be better if they just had complete characters. Not much difference i guess

Honestly, and I mean this honestly and truly. Pick one character in 11, give them EVERY single variation move and just tell me how that's an improvement? Even if you could work out the movelist without adding more buttons, that game fucking sucks. Imagine Geras with all his tools. Or Sonya. Or Kabal.

That was how they made MK9, and that game was about as balanced as an old loaf of bread.

 

[trufenix]

Variations don't always have to be about crazy different optimizations. Sometimes they can just be about trying to find some slightly different utility for your character.

Bear in mind, his perspective is not play. Its watching.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Honestly, everything about this game's life cycle has been ridiculous and it's like they don't care, which leads me to believe that most of their experienced employees are working on a new project.

Pretty much. Why else would they unleash kustoms without changing any of the useless abilities to make them actually worthwhile? Just to buff the already top tiers further, it looks like.

 

[John Grizzly]

Her masks falls off even if she is kicked on the leg.
Items in tekken only fall if they reach critical state or after a number of certain hits. Kuni's mask can fall off from a single jab.

I haven't really noticed when her's falls off, I was just explaining that characters losing parts of their gear was very intentional and not a bug of some sort.

 

[NaCl man]

Honestly, and I mean this honestly and truly. Pick one character in 11, give them EVERY single variation move and just tell me how that's an improvement? Even if you could work out the movelist without adding more buttons, that game fucking sucks. Imagine Geras with all his tools. Or Sonya. Or Kabal.

That was how they made MK9, and that game was about as balanced as an old loaf of bread.

By complete characters i mean in this game the base load out. Take Liu Kang , take all the variation and customs away and he is still a complete character. If the game was designed like this where they built good base load outs and you could add something to the character for particular match ups they would be on a winner. But to do that they would need base archetypes to build around and give the base load outs the tools required to play around the base archatype. To use Liu as an example again he is going up against katana who has a proper zoner base load out with a good anti air he could equip his teleport to help in said match up. Of cause his teleporting would still need to be punishable but it helps in this match up.

 

[NoCharge]

I wonder If there is such a thread in Tekken dedicated forums where MK fans go and hate on Tekken just because lol

 

[Eddy Wang]

I wonder If there is such a thread in Tekken dedicated forums where MK fans go and hate on Tekken just because lol

who's hatin?

 

[NoCharge]

who's hatin?

I'm just saying. Why people come on the forum just to hate on the game.

 

[NaCl man]

I'm just saying. Why people come on the forum just to hate on the game.

Its just a discussion about the game. Some like it some don't. Doesn't mean we aren't mk fans. We don't have to dick ride just cause it's mk. Me personally don't hate it but there were some things about it that put me off.
I think its interesting to hear people's opinions weather they like it or not.

 

[NoCharge]

Its just a discussion about the game. Some like it some don't. Doesn't mean we aren't mk fans. We don't have to dick ride just cause it's mk. Me personally don't hate it but there were some things about it that put me off.
I think its interesting to hear people's opinions weather they like it or not.

True, but comparing it to other totally different games won't do it any good.

 

[trufenix]

By complete characters i mean in this game the base load out. Take Liu Kang , take all the variation and customs away and he is still a complete character. If the game was designed like this where they built good base load outs and you could add something to the character for particular match ups they would be on a winner. But to do that they would need base archetypes to build around and give the base load outs the tools required to play around the base archatype. To use Liu as an example again he is going up against katana who has a proper zoner base load out with a good anti air he could equip his teleport to help in said match up. Of cause his teleporting would still need to be punishable but it helps in this match up.

Edit: see below

 

[trufenix]

True, but comparing it to other totally different games won't do it any good.

Ignoring the fact that tons of comparisons can easily be drawn between every fighting game, you know damned well EVERY other fighting game forum has a thread on it talking shit about mk.

 

[trufenix]

So, just to be clear you're advocating for less moves and gameplay options? Good luck with that.

Actually, lemme revisit this and be a little bit less bitchy. What @NaCl man (and a lot of others) misunderstand about the variation system is that its not new, its not even MK exclusive.

From the second a game is designed (especially a fighter) ideas are discarded based on what works and doesn't work when it hits the actual game. We've all seen enough concept art galleries to know what makes it into the game is rarely the coolest most interesting thing they dreamt up. Kickstarter games that looked great on paper and in trailers, then launched like garbage.

Fighter design, specifically move design is no different. Data miners have been finding disabled moves, shared animations, and code references to things not in the game forever. Ermac, anybody? Namco passes animations around from beta to final release all the time. Whole characters were buried in the code that didn't make it into MvC3 for licensing and design issues. Most SF4's Ultra Edition "new moves" had been lurking in the code since vanilla. And we all remember "Story Mode" Tanya. That's just how games are made.

The variation system is NRS apparently saying fuck it. They've been adding / dumping moves since MK1. I guess they're done picking which ones are "iconic". Frankly, I like it.

 

[Marlow]

That's just how games are made.

That's generally been my thought as well.

I assume that if MK11 had launched without the Variations, we'd likely have characters that are nearly identical (if not entirely identical) to one of their first "tournament" variations. I don't think the variation system is what causes characters to "feel incomplete" I think it's just the normal issue of some characters functioning better/being stronger compared to others, just like any fighting game has some characters which are better than others.

 

[trufenix]

Namco passes animations around from beta to final release all the time.

Here's an example:

At the time, we thought this was evidence of TvSF. It would eventually turn out to be Akuma's debut in T7. Should Heihachi have kept this Shoryuken if it made him more or less competitive in T7? I mean that's a stupid fucking question but that's what we're talking about here.

 

[trufenix]

That's generally been my thought as well.

I assume that if MK11 had launched without the Variations, we'd likely have characters that are nearly identical (if not entirely identical) to one of their first "tournament" variations. I don't think the variation system is what causes characters to "feel incomplete" I think it's just the normal issue of some characters functioning better/being stronger compared to others, just like any fighting game has some characters which are better than others.

I'm sure MK11 without variations was never even a consideration. Even if it wasn't an obvious feature departure from the Injustice series, they have been trying to do custom characters in MK since Armageddon, Deadly Alliance if you want to get really technical with the very first Konquest mode. Meanwhile, competitive mode / kl is still a tacked on seasonal feature to MK and not its focus, like story mode or towers of time. I am confident that if the "tournament variations" had truly flopped, customs in competitive would've never seen the light of day and we would have gone back to the 1 character competitive model in MK12, but there would still be customs / variations of some sort.

I mean, there has been a clear evolution in the system from Armageddon when they weren't trying to now. Even from MKX to 11. The step down from three to two seemed like a huge blow compeittively, but its obvious from a balancing standpoint it was the right thing to do. As was pointed out early, MKX had TONS of useless variations even after years of patching. Some characters were alwasy good, others were always bad.

Meanwhile MK11 really only had a few broke out of the gate, and many were mitigated by patches. The re-introduction of the third variations created some statistical outliers (Jacqui, Raiden) but I bet if you did the math, MK11s 3 variation balance is way tighter than MKXs. People are mad about Jacqui and Johnny Liu and Fujin and Sheeva having one kinda OD variation, but they just forgotten about the game that was ruled Alien and Tanya and fucking Quan Chi? Have they forgotten Flame Fist Liu had different tier lists online and offline, even after the netcode patch? Ew.

 

[supahotbean]

Because you could pair Jo Push with Teleport, and then you'd have a build that would keep Summon Lightning while still having a launcher and a teleport. Basically Thunder Wave, except with slightly less damage but a better anti-air.


Variations don't always have to be about crazy different optimizations. Sometimes they can just be about trying to find some slightly different utility for your character.

who is anti airing with a 20 frame move ????

 

[Marlow]

who is anti airing with a 20 frame move ????

Summon Lightning is 11 frames.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Summon Lightning is 11 frames.

That doesn't answer their question!!!

 

[Marlow]

NRS should come up with a mode in their games where you could go into it and practice moves and look at frame data to see how things work.

Edit: @supahotbean sorry this comment was a bit dumb on my part, stressful work morning.

 

[supahotbean]

Summon Lightning is 11 frames.

I thought that you were referring to anti air with jo push

 

[Marlow]

I thought that you were referring to anti air with jo push

Sorry, I didn't specify. Storm Cell replaces summon Lightning. So by doing a theoretical Jo Push/Teleport build, you'd have Jo Push to use as a launcher, Summon Lightning as a combo ender/anti air, and the mobility of Teleport.

Again, probably not optimal since Jo Push has a lot of issues with scaling and hit boxes so you're losing 5-6% damage per combo, you're giving up Electric Fly, and you're losing the threat of D1xxxSC, but if you really like Teleport and you want a better anti-air, that option is available.


They could make teleport 1 slot, but I feel like then they might need to tweak some of his other moves down a bit. I'm someone who thinks Raiden is a solid character as is right now though, so I might just be too optimistic when it comes to Raiden. I'm probably in the minority when it comes that belief.

 

[Marinjuana]

Actually, lemme revisit this and be a little bit less bitchy. What @NaCl man (and a lot of others) misunderstand about the variation system is that its not new, its not even MK exclusive.

From the second a game is designed (especially a fighter) ideas are discarded based on what works and doesn't work when it hits the actual game. We've all seen enough concept art galleries to know what makes it into the game is rarely the coolest most interesting thing they dreamt up. Kickstarter games that looked great on paper and in trailers, then launched like garbage.

Fighter design, specifically move design is no different. Data miners have been finding disabled moves, shared animations, and code references to things not in the game forever. Ermac, anybody? Namco passes animations around from beta to final release all the time. Whole characters were buried in the code that didn't make it into MvC3 for licensing and design issues. Most SF4's Ultra Edition "new moves" had been lurking in the code since vanilla. And we all remember "Story Mode" Tanya. That's just how games are made.

The variation system is NRS apparently saying fuck it. They've been adding / dumping moves since MK1. I guess they're done picking which ones are "iconic". Frankly, I like it.

NRS is unique in that their design strategy seems to be to make a bunch of special moves that they then decide if they want to actually use later. That's how we got justice 2 where 40% of the special moves were unusable in competitive. I can't imagine that other developers have ever made dozens of fully animated specials and game tested specials that were banned from use in tournaments.

Variations add a lot of variety but it clearly has an effect on balance, you can't buff move X because one kustom move makes that cheap, can't buff character's counter zoning cause they could equip the projectile reflect instead(aka switch characters), this cool setup move is bad because we can't give this varied tool set a cheap setup move, etc. And how many cool moves are just not competitive in terms of kustom slots? Like who the hell is ever gonna play Spellmaster in kustoms?(Screaming Souls is great though)

When they do it right, you get characters with cool ass variety like Shang or Tremor but often it feels like a more complete toolset is being butchered for the sake of variations. The strings locked behind kustoms come to mind.