NRS and their garbage patches (aka hotfixes)

[trufenix]

NRS is unique in that they their design strategy seems to be to make a bunch of special moves that they then decide if they want to actually use later. That's how we got justice 2 where 40% of the special moves were unusable in competitive. I can't imagine that other developers have ever made dozens of fully animated specials and game tested specials that were banned from use in tournaments.

Variations add a lot of variety but it clearly has an effect on balance, you can't buff move X because one kustom move makes that cheap, can't buff character's counter zoning cause they could equip the projectile reflect instead(aka switch characters), this cool setup move is bad because we can't give this varied tool set a cheap setup move, etc. And how many cool moves are just not competitive in terms of kustom slots? Like who the hell is ever gonna play Spellmaster in kustoms?(Screaming Souls is great though)

When they do it right, you get characters with cool ass variety like Shang or Tremor buy often it feels like a more complete toolset is being butchered for the sake of variations. The strings locked behind kustoms come to mind.

You say that like Tekken doesn't still have tons of useless moves and throws that are entirely redundant or do absolutely nothing or are outright detrimental to you.

You say that like street fighter didn't just give Dan a super taunt that grants his opponent a full super meter and a guaranteed ko on punish.

You say that like smash isn't super competitive even though about half the moves in the game are literal jokes

You say that like mortal kombat itself isn't founded on complex fatality moves that have dick all to do with competitive viability. Remember, there was a time when literally EVERY MK CHARACTER had the same normals, and SEVEN of them had the exact same sprites.

We could go through any character in any fighting game and find at least one button or special that is completely useless. Should we just disable it? Should we turn every fighting game into dive kick or footsies or something even more rudimentary like paper rock scissors?

Or should we allow developers to put whatever the fuck they want in the game and we the players can stick to fucking playing it?

 

[Obly]

I assume that if MK11 had launched without the Variations, we'd likely have characters that are nearly identical (if not entirely identical) to one of their first "tournament" variations. I don't think the variation system is what causes characters to "feel incomplete" I think it's just the normal issue of some characters functioning better/being stronger compared to others, just like any fighting game has some characters which are better than others.

Mostly agreed--although in some cases it does seem like they gutted a character's base kit for no other reason than to be able to offer more ability options. The biggest culprits are abilities that add extra strings (e.g., Nightwolf, Kano, Rambo) or add versatility to other moves (e.g., Kollector, Rain--one slot to add the move itself but a second slot to use it in the air).

That to me does contribute to certain characters feeling stripped-down and incomplete. Those kinds of abilities tend to be minor enhancements; they could've been included as base just to give those characters/moves a bit more basic competitiveness and it wouldn't have made them imbalanced.

I don't play Mileena, but from what I've heard, she got this treatment maybe worse than any other character in the game; her extra string ability is considered essential just to make her viable, period, and she got generally nickeled and dimed on all her special move options (e.g., air sais, air teleport).

Also worth noting, that kind of shifting from base to abilities wasn't applied equally and fairly across the cast. One of the things that makes the top tier characters top tier is that they just got versatile, complete moves without being nickeled and dimed. Cetrion doesn't need to use a second slot to teleport in the air. Liu doesn't need a slot to throw an air fireball. A point in favor of set variations is that (presumably) you'd see less of this kind of inequality in how characters are put together.

 

[Marinjuana]

You say that like Tekken doesn't still have tons of useless moves and throws that are entirely redundant or do absolutely nothing or are outright detrimental to you.

You say that like street fighter didn't just give Dan a super taunt that grants his opponent a full super meter and a guaranteed ko on punish.

You say that like smash isn't super competitive even though about half the moves in the game are literal jokes

You say that like mortal kombat itself isn't founded on complex fatality moves that have dick all to do with competitive viability. Remember, there was a time when literally EVERY MK CHARACTER had the same normals, and SEVEN of them had the exact same sprites.

We could go through any character in any fighting game and find at least one button or special that is completely useless. Should we just disable it? Should we turn every fighting game into dive kick or footsies or something even more rudimentary like paper rock scissors?

Or should we allow developers to put whatever the fuck they want in the game and we the players can stick to fucking playing it?

I say what like that?

Calm down with the discursion son, there's obviously pros and cons to variations.

 

[Marlow]

although in some cases it does seem like they gutted a character's base kit for no other reason than to be able to offer more ability options.

Yeah, I certainly think that for a few characters NRS kind of twisted themselves into a bit of a knot trying to make things work.

I certainly see the merits in going with 1 or 2 set variations, since it should make things theoretically easier to balance. I guess I'm just fine with variations either way. If Injustice 3 or MK12 scraps the whole thing and just goes back to the normal 1 character model, I'm fine with that. I'd actually prefer it, if only to give people one less thing to complain about.

 

[NaCl man]

Here's an example:

At the time, we thought this was evidence of TvSF. It would eventually turn out to be Akuma's debut in T7. Should Heihachi have kept this Shoryuken if it made him more or less competitive in T7? I mean that's a stupid fucking question but that's what we're talking about here.

I haven't seen that before. That's cool to see.
He has a shoto stance , does hei ff2 into f4 bound into dp lol.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Pretty much. Why else would they unleash kustoms without changing any of the useless abilities to make them actually worthwhile? Just to buff the already top tiers further, it looks like.

Because changing too much in a single patch is how we get the messes that happened in MKX, with half of everything being broken every patch, and then having to be be massively retconned in the next. This is what people asked them not to do.

So the plan was likely to see what customs did first, and then balance after people had a few months to sort things out.

 

[DeftMonk]

Tekken still using all their same combat animations from 1997.

this man been jumping with the same animation for 30 yrs almost. Still feels good to me.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

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this man been jumping with the same animation for 30 yrs almost. Still feels good to me.

I once got kicked out of gym class for hitting a volley ball with my fist trying to imitate Mario doing this.

 

[supahotbean]

You say that like Tekken doesn't still have tons of useless moves and throws that are entirely redundant or do absolutely nothing or are outright detrimental to you.

Tekken can get away with having a lot of garbage moves since each character has about 15 to 20 good viable moves and each character is diverse in its own way. (when i say moves I mean strings)

You say that like street fighter didn't just give Dan a super taunt that grants his opponent a full super meter and a guaranteed ko on punish.

That's just dan, lol he's had that in every street fighter

You say that like smash isn't super competitive even though about half the moves in the game are literal jokes

in smash, legit everyone has "some dirt". doesn't matter where you are tier wise. but even the " literal joke moves" are still viable

We could go through any character in any fighting game and find at least one button or special that is completely useless. Should we just disable it? Should we turn every fighting game into dive kick or footsies or something even more rudimentary like paper rock scissors?

The point that I think a lot of people are trying to say is that nrs just simply designs moves just to design them. rain's movement speed boost would be a good example. why would they ban a move for a character that just got released lol. just don't add in the move in. I know ill get the " well its meant for casual play", and to that i answer why didn't they just balance the move for both competitive and casual play?

Or should we allow developers to put whatever the fuck they want in the game and we the players can stick to fucking playing it?

community feedback is necessary, and if not ..... rip that game. I've seen too many games die just because they didn't listen to their community.

 

[supahotbean]

Because changing too much in a single patch is how we get the messes that happened in MKX, with half of everything being broken every patch, and then having to be be massively retconned in the next. This is what people asked them not to do.

So the plan was likely to see what customs did first, and then balance after people had a few months to sort things out.

unpopular opinion, but I like/ed the patches in which they flip the meta. it kinda brought a whole new life to the game.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I know ill get the " well its meant for casual play", and to that i answer why didn't they just balance the move for both competitive and casual play?

1000%

Hearing 16Bit say that some moves were never intended for comp really did my head in. Designing all moves for comp benefits literally everyone.

 

[Swindle]

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this man been jumping with the same animation for 30 yrs almost. Still feels good to me.

Never heard of her.

 

[trufenix]

I say what like that?

Calm down with the discursion son, there's obviously pros and cons to variations.

Do you not read your own posts after you write them?

 

[Marinjuana]

Do you not read your own posts after you write them?

Your response was an incoherent mess so I was curious as to what part you thought you were responding too, I don't suffer strawman discussions. You enjoy the weekend though champ

 

[trufenix]

Tekken can get away with having a lot of garbage moves since each character has about 15 to 20 good viable moves and each character is diverse in its own way. (when i say moves I mean strings)

That's just dan, lol he's had that in every street fighter

in smash, legit everyone has "some dirt". doesn't matter where you are tier wise. but even the " literal joke moves" are still viable

Here's your real point, other fighting games are allowed to have pointless joke moves, just not MK. Even though MK is older than all of them. Even though MK is like the least serious game ever. MK was never serious. MK has always had pointless useless moves. Expecting them to change a 30 year old pedigree is on you, pal.

The point that I think a lot of people are trying to say is that nrs just simply designs moves just to design them. rain's movement speed boost would be a good example. why would they ban a move for a character that just got released lol. just don't add in the move in. I know ill get the " well its meant for casual play", and to that i answer why didn't they just balance the move for both competitive and casual play?

Are you joking? They banned the custom moves because they're unbalanced. That was how they balanced them for competitive and casual play. If they nerf them, they'll suck. If they unban them, the game will be unbalanced. Is that what you want? More sucky moves? More lopsided matchups?

You think Injustice 2 would've been better with all those infinites and 100% combos they found in custom mode?

community feedback is necessary, and if not ..... rip that game. I've seen too many games die just because they didn't listen to their community.

Sure it did. Can't wait for you to think of one.

 

[trufenix]

Your response was an incoherent mess so I was curious as to what part you thought you were responding too, I don't suffer strawman discussions. You enjoy the weekend though champ

Maybe the issue is you don't know what a Strawman discussion is. This is now the third incoherent mess you've managed to suffer for me.