NRS and their garbage patches (aka hotfixes)

[trufenix]

NRS has been awful with patches & hotfixes since MK9. This isn't anything new.

You don't think it says more about you that you're still bitter about 10 year old patching? 5 games later?

 

[NaCl man]

SFV netcode is dogshit lol.

 

[Pizza]

Next MK has to get rid of the variation system forever, it was a mistake.

 

[NaCl man]

Next MK has to get rid of the variation system forever, it was a mistake.

Yeah its a great idea in theory but it just doesn't work.

 

[NaCl man]

@NaCl man
wouldn't you agree that Tekken7 is way more complex and harder to balance, jet the game is to me the most balanced Tekken ever.
Tekken devs massively changed the game on feedback (of course it takes time tho)

(akuma to me is a special case, as he is so different and on top a crazy execution monster, the reason you won't face him in ranked anyways ...)

To stay positive tho, as I like MK11, I just hope for the best, but if we see a Injustice3 announcement and MK11 is done. I will be for sure super disappointed.

That's a fair point but in reality tekken 7 is the latest version of tekken 5. They have stuck with a game plan and have spent a long time working on it. It has played off. The issue with mk games is they try to reinvent the wheel every game. If they picked a formula and refined it with each game it would be in alot better place. But I think variations at this stage is flogging a dead horse.

 

[SHAOLIN]

The issue with mk games is they try to reinvent the wheel every game. If they picked a formula and refined it with each game it would be in a lot better place.

Injustice series is a good example of picking a formula and refining it. I just wish they did that for the recent MK games

 

[colby4898]

Sfv has been out since 2016 and tekken 7 has been out since 2015( in arcades which i was lucky enough to live near one) and these games have had some big issues along the way. I personally am not a fan of mk11 but they did just release customs not that long ago which is quite a big change and it will take time to sort out all that stuff. To assume they are doing nothing or don't care is a bit rough. Sometimes you have to be patient.

Customs was always in the game for anyone who wanted to use it. They made customs available in one game mode which should have been at release. Only people it affected are competitors. If people are loving customs now, it was always there

 

[supahotbean]

Yeah its a great idea in theory but it just doesn't work.

I think some of the main problems fighting games face ( at least this one and recent ones) is just dev/balancers not defining a character's archetype. In mk11 you have people like Liu Kang who can literally do everything. he can zone, counter zone, grapple, counterhit... etc. The same thing goes with seth in SFV. he/she ? can grapple, has spacing traps, great damage... etc. I don't understand why dev's find it soooo hard to just make a character good at 1 or two things. it levels out the game and makes it waaaaaay more interesting in casual and competitive play. I'm pretty sure everyone is tired of seeing the same character 4 times in top 8's.

 

[Eddy Wang]

That's a fair point but in reality tekken 7 is the latest version of tekken 5. They have stuck with a game plan and have spent a long time working on it. It has played off. The issue with mk games is they try to reinvent the wheel every game. If they picked a formula and refined it with each game it would be in alot better place. But I think variations at this stage is flogging a dead horse.

I still think if they kept the formula of MK9 and improved from there, today we would have one hell of a game.
Redesigning movesets all the time it's a terrible idea.
Sub-zero went from a defensive character to a mixup machine that you can't even dare to stand because of slide.
Characters jumping fullscreen with disjointed hitboxes.
Pushbacks on fatal blows.

My throat is filled with BS but I don't think I can just unload it here, TYM didn't do anything to deserve this, so I might as well just uninstall this game in favor of SFV by now, which it looks way more interesting so far.

MK11 it's the least interesting fighting game of this year, and the ball it's once again in their court after the SFV season 5 patch dropped, GG strive release approach and of course Tekken still going strong and they have a road map with a new character coming.

 

[Juggs]

This is in no way a justification of how NRS handles balance patches or any decision they make. But I think there’s something people seem to fail to understand on a basic level. It’s something I’ve stated and repeated so often I feel like everyone knows what I’m about to say, yet every time I say it, it feels like people are reading it for the first time.

Anyway, NRS games are vastly different from just about any other fighting game. And no, I’m not talking about from a gameplay perspective (even though that is true too). Not only the overwhelming majority, I’d say (and this is an estimate to be fair), that at least 95% of the sales from NRS games comes from casuals. Not only the base game, but I’d argue that percentage is also true when it comes to DLC. Maybe it’s smaller when it comes to DLC, but I don’t think it’s a significant difference. When it comes to most of the other fighting games, that percentage seems to be vastly different. More along the lines of 70% are casuals, and I honestly think I’m being generous there.

So, NRS’ primary target are casuals. They know casuals buy the game, play it for a month or two, drop it, and then pick it back up for a week or two once DLC drops. And then rinse and repeat.

Even though balance patches are in theory for the competitive players, they still have significant motivation to cater to the casuals even within something designed to be “for” the competitive players (balance patches/hotfixes, etc). NRS is a business. It wouldn’t make since to cater to such a small percentage of your sales. In fact, I would even argue that they never have to cater to the competitive players at all and they would be just fine. It sounds shillish, but the fact that they even do some of the shit they do for the competitive community is great. Even IF it’s just for optics, in the end, they don’t really gain anything of great significance value wise catering to competitive players.

Other fighting game companies absolutely DO have to cater to the competitive community. Because their competitive community makes up a much larger percentage of their sales compared to NRS games. That isn’t me saying they cater to their competitive community more than their casual community, but they are taken into consideration far more because, again, they make up a larger percentage (comparatively speaking).

Now, I’m not saying there isn’t any value at all to acknowledge the competitive community in the NRS scene and/or to make changes that benefit them. But in the end, all they’re trying to do is increase and maximize their profits. So my question is, why would they spend so much time, money, and resources catering to such a small percentage of their consumer base? Like I said, there is a small financial benefit because competitive players do buy all the DLC and do promote the game (for free) via streams and YouTube. And there’s a benefit optically. It looks good for a game to be balanced. But the funny thing is, they still aren’t even targeting the NRS competitive community in this regard. You know who they’re appealing to here? Competitive players from OTHER fighting game communities.

So in a sense, we are the LEAST important people as far as value is concerned if we are looking at NRS from a business perspective.

My point is, y’all expect far too much from NRS when it comes to balance patches. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[NaCl man]

This is in no way a justification of how NRS handles balance patches or any decision they make. But I think there’s something people seem to fail to understand on a basic level. It’s something I’ve stated and repeated so often I feel like everyone knows what I’m about to say, yet every time I say it, it feels like people are reading it for the first time.

Anyway, NRS games are vastly different from just about any other fighting game. And no, I’m not talking about from a gameplay perspective (even though that is true too). Not only the overwhelming majority, I’d say (and this is an estimate to be fair), that at least 95% of the sales from NRS games comes from casuals. Not only the base game, but I’d argue that percentage is also true when it comes to DLC. Maybe it’s smaller when it comes to DLC, but I don’t think it’s a significant difference. When it comes to most of the other fighting games, that percentage seems to be vastly different. More along the lines of 70% are casuals, and I honestly think I’m being generous there.

So, NRS’ primary target are casuals. They know casuals buy the game, play it for a month or two, drop it, and then pick it back up for a week or two once DLC drops. And then rinse and repeat.

Even though balance patches are in theory for the competitive players, they still have significant motivation to cater to the casuals even within something designed to be “for” the competitive players (balance patches/hotfixes, etc). NRS is a business. It wouldn’t make since to cater to such a small percentage of your sales. In fact, I would even argue that they never have to cater to the competitive players at all and they would be just fine. It sounds shillish, but the fact that they even do some of the shit they do for the competitive community is great. Even IF it’s just for optics, in the end, they don’t really gain anything of great significance value wise catering to competitive players.

Other fighting game companies absolutely DO have to cater to the competitive community. Because their competitive community makes up a much larger percentage of their sales compared to NRS games. That isn’t me saying they cater to their competitive community more than their casual community, but they are taken into consideration far more because, again, they make up a larger percentage (comparatively speaking).

Now, I’m not saying there isn’t any value at all to acknowledge the competitive community in the NRS scene and/or to make changes that benefit them. But in the end, all they’re trying to do is increase and maximize their profits. So my question is, why would they spend so much time, money, and resources catering to such a small percentage of their consumer base? Like I said, there is a small financial benefit because competitive players do buy all the DLC and do promote the game (for free) via streams and YouTube. And there’s a benefit optically. It looks good for a game to be balanced. But the funny thing is, they still aren’t even targeting the NRS competitive community in this regard. You know who they’re appealing to here? Competitive players from OTHER fighting game communities.

So in a sense, we are the LEAST important people as far as value is concerned if we are looking at NRS from a business perspective.

My point is, y’all expect far too much from NRS when it comes to balance patches. That’s all I’m saying.

In saying that if they didn't reinvent the wheel every time they release a mk game would it really matter to the casuals? They are going to buy it anyway right? Better graphics , cool new gruesome fatalities, story mode and so fourth. Why not build on the core game play for the competitive scene? As @Eddy Wang said , if they had built off the back of mk9 the competitive scene i believe would be in a lot better place.

 

[supahotbean]

This is in no way a justification of how NRS handles balance patches or any decision they make. But I think there’s something people seem to fail to understand on a basic level. It’s something I’ve stated and repeated so often I feel like everyone knows what I’m about to say, yet every time I say it, it feels like people are reading it for the first time.

Anyway, NRS games are vastly different from just about any other fighting game. And no, I’m not talking about from a gameplay perspective (even though that is true too). Not only the overwhelming majority, I’d say (and this is an estimate to be fair), that at least 95% of the sales from NRS games comes from casuals. Not only the base game, but I’d argue that percentage is also true when it comes to DLC. Maybe it’s smaller when it comes to DLC, but I don’t think it’s a significant difference. When it comes to most of the other fighting games, that percentage seems to be vastly different. More along the lines of 70% are casuals, and I honestly think I’m being generous there.

So, NRS’ primary target are casuals. They know casuals buy the game, play it for a month or two, drop it, and then pick it back up for a week or two once DLC drops. And then rinse and repeat.

Even though balance patches are in theory for the competitive players, they still have significant motivation to cater to the casuals even within something designed to be “for” the competitive players (balance patches/hotfixes, etc). NRS is a business. It wouldn’t make since to cater to such a small percentage of your sales. In fact, I would even argue that they never have to cater to the competitive players at all and they would be just fine. It sounds shillish, but the fact that they even do some of the shit they do for the competitive community is great. Even IF it’s just for optics, in the end, they don’t really gain anything of great significance value wise catering to competitive players.

Other fighting game companies absolutely DO have to cater to the competitive community. Because their competitive community makes up a much larger percentage of their sales compared to NRS games. That isn’t me saying they cater to their competitive community more than their casual community, but they are taken into consideration far more because, again, they make up a larger percentage (comparatively speaking).

Now, I’m not saying there isn’t any value at all to acknowledge the competitive community in the NRS scene and/or to make changes that benefit them. But in the end, all they’re trying to do is increase and maximize their profits. So my question is, why would they spend so much time, money, and resources catering to such a small percentage of their consumer base? Like I said, there is a small financial benefit because competitive players do buy all the DLC and do promote the game (for free) via streams and YouTube. And there’s a benefit optically. It looks good for a game to be balanced. But the funny thing is, they still aren’t even targeting the NRS competitive community in this regard. You know who they’re appealing to here? Competitive players from OTHER fighting game communities.

So in a sense, we are the LEAST important people as far as value is concerned if we are looking at NRS from a business perspective.

My point is, y’all expect far too much from NRS when it comes to balance patches. That’s all I’m saying.

If nrs wants to go full on causal for mk11, they should just do it. They should shut down their competive bracket and any other competitive elements in their game. They should Stop wasting people's time in hoping that the game gets better and should release a statement like this.
" Dear competitive community, we hate you. We are tried of your complaints and invision for this game. For the duration of mk11's life cycle we don't/won't support the competitive scene any more. Hope to see you in injustice 3. Bye"


The reason why they won't ever do this, because they ride on the competitive's community sense of hope. in order to sell us another combat pack for 50 dollars, they make us get hyped by telling us huge changes are coming and big patch notes will be here (in hope to fix day 1 issues). Fact of the matter is that thoes statment are highly manipulative and out right not cool.

If nrs wants to make a casual game that's cool. Just stop with the baiting.

 

[Juggs]

In saying that if they didn't reinvent the wheel every time they release a mk game would it really matter to the casuals? They are going to buy it anyway right? Better graphics , cool new gruesome fatalities, story mode and so fourth. Why not build on the core game play for the competitive scene? As @Eddy Wang said , if they had built off the back of mk9 the competitive scene i believe would be in a lot better place.

I’d say reinventing the wheel is one of the biggest draws to casuals. Casuals have a completely different perspective. When it comes to fighting games, they don’t want to play the same game just with new features and a new coat of paint. They want a seemingly completely new experience. One of those reasons is that even though they are casuals, they want at least the sense that they aren’t already starting “behind”. Even IF they have already played the previous games (or it would be iterations in this case). Even though casuals aren’t competitive players, they still want to think they have a chance at winning. I think NRS knows exactly what the casuals want, which is why they reinvent the wheel for each new game. I’d imagine that 99.9% of their resources go into trying to figure out what will best sell the new game to casuals. And I don’t think that’s some crazy revelation, just common sense.

If nrs wants to go full on causal for mk11, they should just do it. They should shut down their competive bracket and any other competitive elements in their game. They should Stop wasting people's time in hoping that the game gets better and should release a statement like this.
" Dear competitive community, we hate you. We are tried of your complaints and invision for this game. For the duration of mk11's life cycle we don't/won't support the competitive scene any more. Hope to see you in injustice 3. Bye"


The reason why they won't ever do this, because they ride on the competitive's community sense of hope. in order to sell us another combat pack for 50 dollars, they make us get hyped by telling us huge changes are coming and big patch notes will be here (in hope to fix day 1 issues). Fact of the matter is that thoes statment are highly manipulative and out right not cool.

If nrs wants to make a casual game that's cool. Just stop with the baiting.

Why would they stop with the baiting if we always fall for it anyway? Because it’s the right thing to do? No offense, but get the fuck out of here, lol. NRS isn’t our friend who wants to do what’s best for our competitive community. That isn’t to say there isn’t many people who work at NRS that DO want that. But what individual employees want is kinda irrelevant honestly.

But more to the point, as I said in the previous post, the “hope” angle is all about optics. They want to appear as though they’re catering to the competitive community at least in some regard. Even though we make up such a small percentage of the pie, that’s still pie they want. The worst part is, NRS doesn’t even have to devote that much time to appealing to the hardcore dedicated players. They know, for the most part, the hardcore players will buy all the DLC and new games anyway. And another reason they want competitive players around, is because of one of the few reasons we add value in NRS’ eyes, free promotion.

Anyway, I’m going to stop here. I realize it seems like I’m making a lot of assumptions so I don’t want to piss anyone off. I just want y’all to understand the reality that NRS is simply a business, and their games are simply their product. The goal is to do anything they can to sell that product to anyone willing to buy it. And to be crystal clear, I’m not saying I have any issues with this or with NRS at all. I just understand the realities even if those realities are uncomfortable.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

As to the level of conscious manipulation, we were promised that 'there's pages and pages of patch notes' before the poke change patch, and those pages were comprised of just individually listing every d1/d3 frame change... which is admittedly funny, in hindsight.

 

[Nickolaidas]

“Oh, but they don’t want to interrupt the pro series!” Oh, boo hoo. Leave the game an utter mess for 6 months so we can watch a dozen or so of the same people play in an online cup every week.

This. So much.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Yeah, there's always some kind of a tournament going on. It's a bullshit excuse, and businesses REALLY don't deserve to have people jumping in to defend them with such.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I’d say reinventing the wheel is one of the biggest draws to casuals. Casuals have a completely different perspective. When it comes to fighting games, they don’t want to play the same game just with new features and a new coat of paint. They want a seemingly completely new experience. One of those reasons is that even though they are casuals, they want at least the sense that they aren’t already starting “behind”. Even IF they have already played the previous games (or it would be iterations in this case). Even though casuals aren’t competitive players, they still want to think they have a chance at winning. I think NRS knows exactly what the casuals want, which is why they reinvent the wheel for each new game. I’d imagine that 99.9% of their resources go into trying to figure out what will best sell the new game to casuals. And I don’t think that’s some crazy revelation, just common sense.




Why would they stop with the baiting if we always fall for it anyway? Because it’s the right thing to do? No offense, but get the fuck out of here, lol. NRS isn’t our friend who wants to do what’s best for our competitive community. That isn’t to say there isn’t many people who work at NRS that DO want that. But what individual employees want is kinda irrelevant honestly.

But more to the point, as I said in the previous post, the “hope” angle is all about optics. They want to appear as though they’re catering to the competitive community at least in some regard. Even though we make up such a small percentage of the pie, that’s still pie they want. The worst part is, NRS doesn’t even have to devote that much time to appealing to the hardcore dedicated players. They know, for the most part, the hardcore players will buy all the DLC and new games anyway. And another reason they want competitive players around, is because of one of the few reasons we add value in NRS’ eyes, free promotion.

Anyway, I’m going to stop here. I realize it seems like I’m making a lot of assumptions so I don’t want to piss anyone off. I just want y’all to understand the reality that NRS is simply a business, and their games are simply their product. The goal is to do anything they can to sell that product to anyone willing to buy it. And to be crystal clear, I’m not saying I have any issues with this or with NRS at all. I just understand the realities even if those realities are uncomfortable.

Unfortunately, this is very true.


I never once committed to buying any NRS full product on pre-release, maybe because deep in my heart even if I do want them to think otherwise there is always this train of thought that we know it existed.
In the end, it comes down to either you are enjoying the game or not.
And so far, this game doesn't seem to be as enjoyable at least for me, so I put as less as money on this game as possible, so you guys can have an idea, I didn't purchase KP1 and bought the MK characters individually, didn't even bother to buy aftermath expansion.

I had to buy KP2 because that Skarlet skin was pre-order, but I ended up having Rambo, a character I'm not even the slightest interested in.

I think the game at its core sucks and makes me less invested, so i don't feel the urge of buying whatever they sell in the game rather than being fed with false hopes. If what ppl are saying they are disappointed then they start saving their money and wait and see how things turn out before trying to buy it and experience first hand.



The last game of NRS that I played for countless hours non-stop was MK9 other than, Trilogy and somewhat MKX, but this game for some reason, I don't feel it.

 

[NoCharge]

Variation system is great. It's a burden to balance, but it is great. NRS just needs to get more diligent.

 

[NaCl man]

Variation system is great. It's a burden to balance, but it is great. NRS just needs to get more diligent.

I disagree. I think the game would be alot better if it had set archetypes. After 2 games of it not working as it was sold I think its time to let it go. As I said on paper it seems great but to me it just doesn't work.

 

[NoCharge]

I disagree. I think the game would be alot better if it had set archetypes. After 2 games of it not working as it was sold I think its time to let it go. As I said on paper it seems great but to me it just doesn't work.

It works for Spawn and Rambo, I interchange move all the time. It's just that not all chars are like this. Most aren't lol.

 

[Ashesfall]

Variation system is great. It's a burden to balance, but it is great. NRS just needs to get more diligent.

I agree, and I feel like a lot of people don't understand why they did this.
(NRS even said why, I guess it was Ed Boon)
Of course this does not mean you have to like it.

If you are loyal to just one fighter, the variation system gives you the opportunity to create the fighter to your personal preference and playstyle.

You like combos and raw damage? Get it
You like more zoning? Get it
You like more utilities like teleport? Get it
You like more of a close up grappler? Get it
etc.

Some of the base kits in the roster could just get some more moves to play around (but maybe I am a little biased because I love the big movelists in Tekken, where one fighter feels like 3 in MK11 (especially fighters like Lei, Yoshimitsu, Zafina etc.))

This is also a reason why I am happy that they opened up the variation system but in the result some moves need to be looked at. Try to make them "all" viable on one way or another.

So far I wouldn't defend NRS in any way, their communication is wack ... but maybe there is something "bad" going on in the background? Who knows.

 

[trufenix]

Can one of the admins put this whole damned thread in a rose tinted background color. Holy shit.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Sfv net code isn't that bad anymore and tekken has roll back. Also with those games, at least you have a connection filter

Tekken doesn't have rollback just because Harada says it. The game still plays like any other delay based game just that it's gone from shit tier tier halfway playable. I deinstalled that shit right when I noticed it was still delay-based and I had to pay for frame data, lol.

 

[Pizza]

The variation system butchered the movesets of almost every character. Juggs explained it very well, this is just to sell it to the casuals so they feel they're playing something new and innovative. You look at other FG and the characters keep a core of moves and style that MK loses with every new iteration. It's appaling.

 

[supahotbean]

Tekken doesn't have rollback just because Harada says it. The game still plays like any other delay based game just that it's gone from shit tier tier halfway playable. I deinstalled that shit right when I noticed it was still delay-based and I had to pay for frame data, lol.

Paying for frame data is dumb, but tekken does have roll back