Match-up Discussion Nightwing Matchup Discussion

[TheBoyBlunder]

Once my scene starts streaming again, I can stream me playing our local Hawkgirl player, and if people have specific questions the two of us can probably go over it after the set or something.

That'll be dope. I invite NW's to get more experience with this match up, that will develop help to see how you handle that match up.
I'll see if I can get another set with Trepound who's a tourney player in the Atlanta scene. His Hawkgirl is pretty solid.

 

[Sajam]

I think anyone can shut anyone down with the right game plan and proper reads. I can see where Grundy is difficult to read with cancels and MBs. Shout out to Tryant, but he's just one dude and shouldn't define every Grundy player on the universe. Not every Superman player plays like KDZ, nor is every Grundy player going to play like Tyrant. They're still real players and represent the demographic of those maining those characters.

I believe the everyday SG player going against the everyday NW player will tend to favor NW at 6-4 just from my experience from playing and watching the match up on PSN. At highest levels, I guess it's probably close to 5-5, but then again it's hard to confirm that theres a true sense because this game is new, the Grundy community may discover new tech that will totally shut NW down and the NW community may find a plan to keep Grundy in check.

I personally enjoy playing Grundy, whatever their experience is and I look forward to future match ups because it's one of the most contrasting match ups between Nightwing's acrobatic and gadgets vs Grundy's precision grappling

I've played more solid Grundy's than just Tyrant. Then matchup is still should not be called "One of Grundy's worst matchups" or 6-4. NW shouldn't be able to remain in staff against Grundy, and playing escrima against him requires you to make reads/guesses that aren't great for you. It gets better when you understand the gaps in his offense, but he can make smart reads to cover them, which forces you to make reads, and etc. If the Grundy can't deal with wing dings, or deal with NW staff then he doesn't know the matchup well. Also, running normal offense on Grundy is super risky, since he can wcc/d2 trait throw if you don't play it well. Mb swamp hands can be used to trade with your zoning/catch badly spaced wing dings. His dash is also fantastic and great for getting under wing dings if he makes the right reads. Your wakeups outside of staff aren't really that strong against him, and you can play a normal footsies game with b2/ground spark cancels.

There are too many options that Grundy has to make this matchup be 6-4 in NW's favor.

 

[TakeAChance]

It's a 5-5. I play Charlie Murphy frequently, and for all the reasons above it's a 5-5. When grundy locks nightwing down in staff stance he forces you to spin due to the threat of his meaty string (F21? I forget the notation) but also the threat of corpse. EX cleaver is really good in this matchup for his wakeup as it requires you to bait it and as such get off of grundykins.

He outdamages the living shit out of you, and his NJ shenanigans are crazy after his setup. D2 is good for catching your dashes in escrima as well. Walking Corpse Charges into D2 RUIN wing dings.

It's a fun match, but at points Grundy is just going to man handle you lol

 

[Breakin Wordzz]

No, it's really not lol. He has to spend meter if he wants to cover more angles than just straight in front of him. That's less meter he has to pushblock you once you're in his face. Like, what is Cyborg going to do when you get in and turn on the staff pressure? Die, pretty much.

Sent from the Batcave

well i assume you have never fought a cyborg then? It is hard for nightwing to jump his IANBs because his jump is low to the ground and quick. whats he going to do about your d1 mashing? MB B3 do like 35% and zone you full screen.

 

[Breakin Wordzz]

Just and FYI you cannot outzone ares with staff stance @_@

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

I've played more solid Grundy's than just Tyrant. Then matchup is still should not be called "One of Grundy's worst matchups" or 6-4. NW shouldn't be able to remain in staff against Grundy, and playing escrima against him requires you to make reads/guesses that aren't great for you. It gets better when you understand the gaps in his offense, but he can make smart reads to cover them, which forces you to make reads, and etc. If the Grundy can't deal with wing dings, or deal with NW staff then he doesn't know the matchup well. Also, running normal offense on Grundy is super risky, since he can wcc/d2 trait throw if you don't play it well. Mb swamp hands can be used to trade with your zoning/catch badly spaced wing dings. His dash is also fantastic and great for getting under wing dings if he makes the right reads. Your wakeups outside of staff aren't really that strong against him, and you can play a normal footsies game with b2/ground spark cancels.

There are too many options that Grundy has to make this matchup be 6-4 in NW's favor.

Once again, I didn't say it was one of Grundy's worst. You misread the previous post again, I was talking about HG.

Well, Escrima is where Dick got his mobility to react quicker to Grundy's moves.

His swamp hands are readable tho, if you get caught by that then it was just a lazy read.

I agree with everything else, but we just got difference experiences from that match up so it's okay to see this a little differently, I can see what you're trying to say.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

It's a 5-5. I play Charlie Murphy frequently, and for all the reasons above it's a 5-5. When grundy locks nightwing down in staff stance he forces you to spin due to the threat of his meaty string (F21? I forget the notation) but also the threat of corpse. EX cleaver is really good in this matchup for his wakeup as it requires you to bait it and as such get off of grundykins.

He outdamages the living shit out of you, and his NJ shenanigans are crazy after his setup. D2 is good for catching your dashes in escrima as well. Walking Corpse Charges into D2 RUIN wing dings.

It's a fun match, but at points Grundy is just going to man handle you lol

I've seen Grundys do 60% combos with ease. The damage is respectable. I happen to play some Grundy myself. He's FUN, but takes a lot of practice because my Grundy is shiiit.

 

[TakeAChance]

I've seen Grundys do 60% combos with ease. The damage is respectable. I happen to play some Grundy myself.

Yep, Over 80 with resets.

 

[TakeAChance]

Just and FYI you cannot outzone ares with staff stance @_@

You can if you get him to block a pound. When he blocks one pound, he cannot throw another projectile. He can godsmack your face tho.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

I believe the everyday SG player going against the everyday NW player will tend to favor NW at 6-4 just from my experience from playing and watching the match up on PSN. At highest levels, I guess it's probably close to 5-5, but then again it's hard to confirm that theres a true sense because this game is new, the Grundy community may discover new tech that will totally shut NW down and

If you aren't basing your matchup numbers on the highest possible level of play, then you doing everyone a disservice.

Saying Grundy/NW is 6-4 NW and Tyrant vs NW is 5-5 is like saying Superman vs NW is 5-5 but KDZ vs. Nightwing is 7-3.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

If you aren't basing your matchup numbers on the highest possible level of play, then you doing everyone a disservice.

Saying Grundy/NW is 6-4 NW and Tyrant vs NW is 5-5 is like saying Superman vs NW is 5-5 but KDZ vs. Nightwing is 7-3.

I don't agree because you can't based one person as the representation of a 100 or more people. It's a weak measure of the character play. Is everyone going to play Tryant's Grundy? No man.

if you want to make a measurement of an average...where's the medium? There's other Grundy players in the world besides Tryant and they represent the Grundy community, it'll be a disservice to them and NW players if you just based the match up on one person's style of play. That's actually a horrible way at looking at this match up. There may be a Grundy player out there that plays a different but effective style than Tryant and you won't be giving him attention because Tryant presents all Grundy players.

and Superman vs NW is 7-3 whether is KDZ or just an average player, Supes got more tools to keep Dick honest.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

So when michaelangelo brought Kabal to the tournament scene in MK9 - were people still basing their MU numbers on Kabal without Nomad Dash Cancels?

Again, this isn't a matter of play styles, this is a matter of execution and fundamentals. When people CAN start playing like Tyrant, more people WILL start playing like Tyrant.

This board isn't for "everyday Grundy" players. This is a competitive forum where we can only expect Grundy players will have their shit together at TFC, and will definitely be on point at EVO 2014.

 

[Breakin Wordzz]

You can if you get him to block a pound. When he blocks one pound, he cannot throw another projectile. He can godsmack your face tho.

what happens if i block a ground spark then jump up as you attempt to do another one? I then throw a projectile to get the advantage in zoning back. i do 8% you do i think 5%

 

[Breakin Wordzz]

If you aren't basing your matchup numbers on the highest possible level of play, then you doing everyone a disservice.

Saying Grundy/NW is 6-4 NW and Tyrant vs NW is 5-5 is like saying Superman vs NW is 5-5 but KDZ vs. Nightwing is 7-3.

lol thats like that guy saying sub zero vs kenshi is 6-4 sub zero but against pig of the hut its 9-1 kenshi lol you cant do that.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

So when michaelangelo brought Kabal to the tournament scene in MK9 - were people still basing their MU numbers on Kabal without Nomad Dash Cancels?

Again, this isn't a matter of play styles, this is a matter of execution and fundamentals. When people CAN start playing like Tyrant, more people WILL start playing like Tyrant.

This board isn't for "everyday Grundy" players. This is a competitive forum where we can only expect Grundy players will have their shit together at TFC, and will definitely be on point at EVO 2014.

What's with the righteous attitude of deciding who's this forum for and how people should play like? Calm it down, it makes you come off very smug.

If everyone plays like the same person, don't you people will eventually do their homework and figure out the match up? I'm sure people can learn a couple of things from.

What I'm saying is, let people learn from others but also develop their own style of play, theres always something new to learn. This isn't a dictatorship so chill with your Hitlerism on video games.

 

[TakeAChance]

what happens if i block a ground spark then jump up as you attempt to do another one? I then throw a projectile to get the advantage in zoning back. i do 8% you do i think 5%

Then I win the zoning war, because I force you to jump and not zone. I could easily grayson if I notice you continue to jump after every pound. I am forcing you to adjust. That means I win the zoning war.

Even if this is at full screen and you nj or jump and I grayson, I close in space and shutdown your zoning. Once nightwing is on top of ares, he is in trouble.

If Ares gets his fireballs out first from full screen, Nightwing can't do anything in staff stance tho.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

What's with the righteous attitude of deciding who's this forum for and how people should play like? Calm it down, it makes you come off very smug.

If everyone plays like the same person, don't you people will eventually do their homework and figure out the match up? I'm sure people can learn a couple of things from.

What I'm saying is, let people learn from others but also develop their own style of play, theres always something new to learn. This isn't a dictatorship so chill with your Hitlerism on video games.

What I'm saying is, Grundy players might come here to talk about their favorite rib house, or whether or not Ben Affleck will make a good Batman, but Grundy players will definitely come here to talk about getting better at this game. That is what I meant about this being a competitive gaming forum.

If Tyrant's Grundy happens to make the Nightwing matchup 5-5, Grundy players will study Tyrant's behavior in the MU, and figure out how to make it a 5-5 for themselves. Calling it a 6-4 for everyone BUT Tyrant is saying the Grundy community can't level up. You're contradicting yourself in your own argument for free learning and shit.

You call me Hitler, but at least Hitler was clear in communicating his ideas - you're all over the fucking place. Like Obama.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

What I'm saying is, Grundy players might come here to talk about their favorite rib house, or whether or not Ben Affleck will make a good Batman, but Grundy players will definitely come here to talk about getting better at this game. That is what I meant about this being a competitive gaming forum.

If Tyrant's Grundy happens to make the Nightwing matchup 5-5, Grundy players will study Tyrant's behavior in the MU, and figure out how to make it a 5-5 for themselves. Calling it a 6-4 for everyone BUT Tyrant is saying the Grundy community can't level up. You're contradicting yourself in your own argument for free learning and shit.

You call me Hitler, but at least Hitler was clear in communicating his ideas - you're all over the fucking place. Like Obama.

You can talk about getting better at the game, but you don't have to be a tournament player to post here and engage in discussions. Some people just enjoy playing the game, win or lose. What's the problem with non-tournament players being on this forum?

I clearly understand everything Grundy brings to the NW match up. I also respect that theres stuff out there that you, I and Sajam don't know that may be discovered by a Grundy player that isn't named Tryant that will help the Grundy community in general level up. You guy's don't know everything there is to a 4 month old game, so it looks extremely silly to come in here and acting like your opinion is a fact. You really thinking people will be looking at this the same way in 1-2 years from now? Think about that.

What's so competitive about playing the same exact style? You're being too simple. If Grundy players follow Tryant's playstyle, why won't Nightwing players do their homework and practice against that match up. Your argument only has substance if the NW community is inactive and doesn't level up while all Grundy players get better at the match up. You're really having a hard time looking at this both ways.

People can study KDZ's style all day, but will there be anyone to play like him? No, it's never going to work out like that. It's not Tryant vs the Nightwing community. The fairest measure would be the Grundy community vs the Nightwing community. Why? If the Grundy community doesn't level up to Tryant's level, how is the match up 6-4? I'd like to see other Grundy players get some rep and love here. You seem to shun them out.

Tryant is just one player, you're treating him like he's god and invincible. Stop the nut hugging and come back to reality. One player alone doesn't make it a 6-4 match up. You either don't want to level up and you're too stubborn to let go of the pedestal you put Tryant on. If this a one player representation, then who's representing Nightwing? There's a shitload of Nightwing players out there. So since you're holding on tightly to Tryant as the Grundy representative, I would like to know who's representing Nightwing.

Like I said before, your righteous attitude shows a small man complex and smugness. You have a hard time handling a different opinion. If you don't know how to disagree, then just end it at that. This is going no where because you're stuck talking about irrelevant topics like eating ribs and Ben Affleck, just stressing the point in the most obsessive fashion that Tyrant represents all Grundy players. Sorry if Obama pissed in your cheerios. You okay?

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Snip

You're talking in circles. Somewhere in that keyboard vomit you're making the case for a 5-5, where before you were swearing it's 6-4 for anyone but Tyrant.

If you're trying to save face, well done. I have no idea what the fuck is you're trying to get across. Either you're purposely trying to misdirect the conversation or you've gone full on mouth breather on me.

Edit: You know what? Fuck this conversation. If you think the MU is 6-4 in NW's favor, fuck it. Enjoy your 6-4.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

TakeAChance

A quick summary of the Nightwing MU

Some things to note from the few games we had in mirrors.

Catching dash ins. We were going back and fourth with this for sure. No one should ever dash in for free.

B2 at point blank is a no go. We're both very guilty of this. F2 or d1 into f213. B2 is my go to. I really need to be better about using 113, f213, and d1.

Unless you are at full screen or have secured yourself a hard knockdown by some other means - staff stance is a no go. I learned this the hard way when playing Sajam. At the highest level, staff is blown up by Escrima's mobility. Notice how I push blocked it every time you got in? I don't have to put up with staff. Ever. What's the best thing that you're going to get on me at mid screen? Flying Grayson does what? 10%? And you have to fight past instant air wingdings and d2 to get it. Fuck that. If I'm in staff stance, it's either because I'm mid combo, or I'm trying to get out of staff stance.

Wake up flip kick is good, but neutral jump normals blow it up for free. I ended a couple matches where you could have clashed by stuffing the wakeup and finishing with an AA combo. I'm pretty sure you weren't expecting it, because you didn't clash the very, very short combos I was putting in to close out the rounds. I'm still training myself to avoid using this wakeup when my opponent shows me they know how to beat it.

Your flip kick mixups are insane. I wish I made as much use of them as you do. They're so good. I really respect the 33 mixups. 112 spark cancels. Glorious mixups. Great stuff my friend, I really admire the setups. That's why I kept push blocking them. I just didn't want to have to put up with it. Why guess when meter is omnipresent?





If you have any criticisms for me I would greatly appreciate hearing them, if you would like your own criticisms made private I would be more than happy to oblige. And if that is the case you have my apology.

I'm sorry again for not having the stream up for our matches. Xsplit wasn't updating without a restart and I can't reboot my laptop without shutting off my Xbox. I'm going to take some notes on the Cyborg MU I was playing last night, eat some breakfast and I'll be on for the rest of the afternoon.

 

[TakeAChance]

TakeAChance

A quick summary of the Nightwing MU

Some things to note from the few games we had in mirrors.

Catching dash ins. We were going back and fourth with this for sure. No one should ever dash in for free.

B2 at point blank is a no go. We're both very guilty of this. F2 or d1 into f213. B2 is my go to. I really need to be better about using 113, f213, and d1.

Unless you are at full screen or have secured yourself a hard knockdown by some other means - staff stance is a no go. I learned this the hard way when playing Sajam. At the highest level, staff is blown up by Escrima's mobility. Notice how I push blocked it every time you got in? I don't have to put up with staff. Ever. What's the best thing that you're going to get on me at mid screen? Flying Grayson does what? 10%? And you have to fight past instant air wingdings and d2 to get it. Fuck that. If I'm in staff stance, it's either because I'm mid combo, or I'm trying to get out of staff stance.

Wake up flip kick is good, but neutral jump normals blow it up for free. I ended a couple matches where you could have clashed by stuffing the wakeup and finishing with an AA combo. I'm pretty sure you weren't expecting it, because you didn't clash the very, very short combos I was putting in to close out the rounds. I'm still training myself to avoid using this wakeup when my opponent shows me they know how to beat it.

Your flip kick mixups are insane. I wish I made as much use of them as you do. They're so good. I really respect the 33 mixups. 112 spark cancels. Glorious mixups. Great stuff my friend, I really admire the setups. That's why I kept push blocking them. I just didn't want to have to put up with it. Why guess when meter is omnipresent?





If you have any criticisms for me I would greatly appreciate hearing them, if you would like your own criticisms made private I would be more than happy to oblige. And if that is the case you have my apology.

I'm sorry again for not having the stream up for our matches. Xsplit wasn't updating without a restart and I can't reboot my laptop without shutting off my Xbox. I'm going to take some notes on the Cyborg MU I was playing last night, eat some breakfast and I'll be on for the rest of the afternoon.

My biggest weakness in our matchups is lack of experience in the mirror.

I will say this. Stop pushing buttons after I block b2. You were getting away with murder with the b1 after it.

You rely on wingdings a lot, and they are very effective in the mirror, but offline, I WILL anti air you lol. In our last few bouts I was trying to block them and get in and d2, but it was still proving difficult because A) You are good at delaying the meter burn and B) I would over dash and go for a d2 and it would whiff.

Your b2 confirms were great tho.

The reason I switched to deathstroke was because I didn't want to do the mirror anymore, and because I wanted to see how you did without wing dings being so prevalent. In the deathstroke matchup you NEED staff. Your insistancy to stay in Escrima was your downfall.

Every blocked regular gunshot is a staff pound check.

 

[Cosmic_Castaway]

@Grundy vs. NW

Who cares if we can't agree on a number. Grundy and NW are both more than capable characters, and their options against each other have been discussed ad nauseum. A good Grundy will not lose to a bad NW, and vice versa. Learn your options, outplay the other person, and you'll win. That's all that needs to be said.

well i assume you have never fought a cyborg then? It is hard for nightwing to jump his IANBs because his jump is low to the ground and quick. whats he going to do about your d1 mashing? MB B3 do like 35% and zone you full screen.

I've played Relax State's Cyborg. There's no reason to jump when dash block and dash duck works Also spamming d1 and getting blown up by a MB b3 read can happen in any matchup. So I don't really see your point.

Sent from the Batcave

 

[NightwingDayZero]

My biggest weakness in our matchups is lack of experience in the mirror.

I will say this. Stop pushing buttons after I block b2. You were getting away with murder with the b1 after it. I am so fucking guilty of this. You caught me with 112 a couple times where you expected me to block. Had it been 113 I would have been GG'd for 30-39%. The habit stems from conditioning myself on the timing of b2 standing 3. When I think b2 should hit, I'm already committed to Standing 3. Really bad habit.

You rely on wingdings a lot, and they are very effective in the mirror, but offline, I WILL anti air you lol. In our last few bouts I was trying to block them and get in and d2, but it was still proving difficult because A) You are good at delaying the meter burn and B) I would over dash and go for a d2 and it would whiff. I was depending heavily on spacing in our MU. I felt very confident in reading dashes and with the life lead, I knew you had to come in. I abused them, absolutely.

Your b2 confirms were great tho. Ty holmes.

The reason I switched to deathstroke was because I didn't want to do the mirror anymore, and because I wanted to see how you did without wing dings being so prevalent. In the deathstroke matchup you NEED staff. Your insistence to stay in Escrima was your downfall. I'm so unsure as to what I need to be doing in the Deathstroke MU. ANNNNY help here would be awesome. Most of the Deathstroke players I come across are online randoms that I can get past by avoiding regular guns with wingdings. Very solid Deathstroke, and I saw you going for that sword spin vortex in the corner you dirty bastard. Pushblock!

Every blocked regular gunshot is a staff pound check.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

I've played Relax State's Cyborg. There's no reason to jump when dash block and dash duck works Also spamming d1 and getting blown up by a MB b3 read can happen in any matchup. So I don't really see your point.

Sent from the Batcave

I played the West Coast's Cyborg SuddenBlackout last night, a very long set. Where I just got bodied repeatedly. After watching my sets this morning here are some of the things I concluded about my gameplay. Any more notes you might have from playing Relaxed State would be very helpful. I'm getting mopped up in this MU. Disclaimer. This is me. Talking to me.


Don't be afraid to clash early, especially with meter advantage. Convincing him to blow his meter takes away means free dash ins on IAFB. More opportunities to do damage safely. Without meter, Cyborg is fucked.

Meter burn IAFB means you're blocking a ground fireball as well. Cyborg may follow the ground fireball follow up with "Target Lock" overhead. Dash dash dash.

B2 flip kick after "target lock" at close range. This will either stuff the animation, or you'll force him to block and you'll get out of the way of the projectile.

MB b3 him on wakeup to stuff his bullshit and convince him to block. Fuck that wakeup. Seriously. Skull fuck that goddamn power fist.

Watch for cross up resets with zipline in the corner.

If he jumps over b2, d1 or 113. Don't b2 his whiffed cross up. You'll only get stuffed. It happened one too many times.

Less jumping. Get in safely. Get in honestly. Be patient.

If you're hit by a fireball. Chill the fuck out. Block the next one. You're not going anywhere. He's getting free damage. You're hanging yourself.

Block low, react to overheads. Apparently 112 can be interupted by d1. Need to test with Escrima to see if shitty d1 actually stuffs string.

 

[Chongo]

NightwingDayZero

Regarding the DeathStroke MU, you know the basics. Every blocked gunshot is a free dash in or a staff pound check when you're in staff. Rarely jump at all, if a gun hits you, you will go back to full screen.

When you are up close, blocking low is the better choice. His low has more range and does more damage. Also do not try to mbb3 him on wakeup, sword flip has 3 hits and will blow it up. Sword Flip is full combo punishable on block, so try to bait it. His f3 is absolutely gdlk, so watch out for it at all times. It's +10 on block and unlike other f3s, moves him forward so he can do it from a safe distance.

DS has some dirty midscreen and corner shenanigans, below I will send some links.

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/the-flying-ninja-vortex.32683/

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/the-corner-of-death-vortex.33042/