Mortal Kombat Revival

[Shock]

A big problem is, when you start adding moves and moves and moves, and changing properties, it becomes endless, and you lose sight of actually making a playable game that people will enjoy playing. It becomes sort of like a demo of what's in the game instead of using what's in the game to form mental connections.

There are things I want to add, and change about UMK3, but I don't want to change too much before I change what's already wrong. You side step the actual problems before looking at them, to jump into the new stuff that you don't know how to implement or control. There's a certain level of limitation built into adding onto an existing concept, before it becomes irrational. For example, the Jax Robot punches thing is neat, but does it really have a place in the game? I never thought the move should have existed in the first place, but it is neat you guys made it, ya know?

 

[Lucky Day]

I'm going to once again cite Shock here because he's doing what everyone else isn't: actually bringing up valid points on the concepts and things we've seen so far.

I agree that what you need to do is get the character working exactly like UMK3 FIRST (let's use Jax as the example here).

Take everything you have listed that he should have in UMK3, and get it working properly.

Then bring that here in playable form and let people who know the game test it out.

Getting the characters to behave properly as they were created originally is going to be the absolute best step for you to take in order to eventually get to what you are ultimately trying to do.

Get two characters, who can simulate and interact with each other in a way we've seen them in a game already, and then let's move from there.

It's good that you think big, there's nothing wrong with that. But don't get ahead of yourself.

I think ideally in a finished game like what you're describing would have maybe 50% of what you just listed in the final product.

You'll have to eventually eliminate or completely alter those moves for balance and playability.

Like Shock said, you don't want to add things unless they're needed or help the character level the playing field in relation to other characters.

 

[NinjaGrinder]

Yeah, you, shock and others have told him valid points and what not. But you also have seen that he just won't listen. He's not willing to discuss the gameplay system. His goal is to make the game as "complicated" and "balanced" as he wants. Hell, he even had the nerve to say he's going to do a better job than the one is being made in MK9, without having even tried the game yet!

Not that MK9 looks that promising, but... the game's not released yet oll eyes:
I just don't get it, frozenworm seems to bash (in a ""sneaky" way) UMK3/MKT and says how bad and broken those games are, but he wants to base his project on them. If those games are so bad, why don't you make a new game? I'll tell you why

Because everyone knows (even YOU know it) UMK3 is the best mk game hands down. So have some respect for the great players here that are giving you light (not me obviously, since I'm not great and I'm not helping you either) and listen to them. Learn from them.

A creator... gimme a break

 

[Shock]

For a long time I have thought about creating a 2D MK style system for making more of the combo attacks characters have into regular attacks. For example Liu Kang's unique comboing hits at the end of his 7 hitter, he has a HK in it that is very different from his normal HK, and that move might actually be workable into a stand-alone regular move, but there would have to be some kind of button motion required to perform it, a la Ryu's Super Kick in 3rd Strike, that has the wall bounce. So perhaps a D, F+HK motion for Liu Kang would result in that thrust kick motion at the end of his combo, and it would have the same effect and damage as it does in his combo, doing about 4% and knocking them across the screen. I think a simple F+HK would be too easy to do accidentally, but making it a D, F motion would also inherently give it the feel that it would need recovery time and risk.

Similar properties to make new, simple moves for characters like Kabal with the hook swords, Mileena's sais, and giving UMK3 Kitana a D+HP swipe with her fan, should all be in there, and this would in some way make the games have a bit more variety among normals, while still entirely including the original basic normals system. The reason why i say use existing animations first is because you can create all the new animation you want, and eventually it becomes totally over-bloated with a lot of useless filler moves of no substance. Making these individual unique moves cause things like the stun from a teleport punch, knock downs like in combos that set up free hits, fly aways, etc, would really start making the game's play like a hybrid of the 2D and 3D games, and I think it could work. Right now I see some of that, but I don't see the moves being implemented correctly, with the right limitations. The ideas, animations and styles are there, but not the rules.

Another thing I've wanted to do is recreate moves that exist in the newer games that the 2D characters didn't have, like Kabal's close range double collision and Ermac's air drop, stuff like that I think could be done, but at the sacrifice of some of the benefits of their other moves, or damage, or whatever. Something I wouldn't want to do is create a bunch of easy to do unique normals that can chain in the air hitting nothing, which I always found to be a horrendous concept in the 3D MKs.

There's SO much more I've thought about, but I wouldn't want to even start adding that stuff in until I had a program that had a UMK3 engine that worked as perfectly as possible.

There are only two things that I don't think can be reproduced 100% faithfully from 2D MK off the top of my head. Those two things are sweep and combo collision detection (also for Mileena's roll). In these situations, the collision box of the character who is being attacked changes. A sweep makes the character's collision go from a typically thin, rectangular shape in the middle of their sprite, to a large collision box the size of their entire sprite, top to bottom, front to back. There is a way to reproduce this that Konqrr once suggested, and it would require making two cold collisions for every frame, and making sweeps have their own unique collision box off screen where it can hit the secondary collision, and never be affected by any other moves. This would be tricky, but possible, and it would make sweeps work the way they do in MK. This also applies to Mileena's roll, maybe some other moves, and combos after the first hit (where both the hot and cold boxes are the exact same and overlapping).

The other thing is the random character advantage, and glitch canceling. I'm sure there's some way to do this, because I'm not a MUGEN programmer, but I'm also sure it would convoluted as Hell. I know character priority for no double hits is possible in MUGEN, but I don't know how it works, or if it does with projectiles as well, to prevent double KOs. That might just be a concession that would have to be made. No glitch canceling either.

Basically everything else that exists in UMK3 is a matter of math and scrutinizing every frame.

 

[Bleed]

The collision boxes are easy to set up, you draw them for every single animation. Matching them to UMK3, I'd have to be able to see them on mame probably.

If you have custom hit states like when flipping over Mileena's roll, the collision boxes can be altered for that state in the same way. You create the hit animation and place the collision boxes where needed. I can have have the same animation change collision boxes by making a copy of it and changing the collisions. I can be a general set up or character specific.

Double KO can be fixed with custom hit states, I can have it so the characters keep 1 point of health instead of losing all life.


Mugen code is surprisingly versatile, if there is a problem I can probably find a number of ways around it.

 

[MKK hanzo]

A big problem is, when you start adding moves and moves and moves, and changing properties, it becomes endless, and you lose sight of actually making a playable game that people will enjoy playing. It becomes sort of like a demo of what's in the game instead of using what's in the game to form mental connections.

There are things I want to add, and change about UMK3, but I don't want to change too much before I change what's already wrong. You side step the actual problems before looking at them, to jump into the new stuff that you don't know how to implement or control. There's a certain level of limitation built into adding onto an existing concept, before it becomes irrational. For example, the Jax Robot punches thing is neat, but does it really have a place in the game? I never thought the move should have existed in the first place, but it is neat you guys made it, ya know?

QFT.

Frozen: IM NOT SPAMMING Im trying to open your eyes and if I sound rude you know that here we treat each other like that in Vzla. I know youa bit more than the guys here so I can have a bit more "confianza" with you.

Why dont you replicate UMK3 first? Then from there start adding/testing, adding/testing in that way you can make something PLAYABLE and ENJOYABLE out of training mode. Cause I have NEVER EVER in my life seen a match of the so calleds MK Mugen projects or at least A SERIOUS MATCH.

And that never will happen cause what everyone has are that: Unfinished projects.

At Hanzo... you clearly didn't read how is the gameplay system. I won't try to explain what have been already explained. IF you and the other 20 guys are happy playing MKT in N64 with H. Smoke, Nightwolf, Kabal and Ermac, that's fine. Keep doing so... I'm not interestet.

I can beat all charas with Mileena if you are happy or if you think they are invincible. There is the point: When you see matches of ours EVERYONE is playing TO WIN not for "fun". So everyone picks their best characters. Have you ever seen our casuals?

I was the one who told you a lot of stuff for your shitty MKG video, and you got credits for some of my discoveries in the MK4 combo video.

I have more fingers in one hand than the combos you submitted to that "shitty" video (wich BTW has more than 63000 views on youtube wich is fine IMO), ask Ded if you dont believe.

I will never be able to make you understand anything unless (perhaps) you play the game, that's gonna be like in december of next year, so... since you have never done anything but playing what others create, shut up until you play MKR (if you decide to play it) and then... let me know if I was wrong or not.

Sure I can shut up and play but I will place a bet: I will shut up and watch and play your "game" when its even on beta, but I will start ranting and flaming even your ancestors the very first moment I find a gameplay hole, loop or broken stuff on your "game". Cause it will be like that: I will find stuff that you even didnt knew will be there in the game cause you lack the experience or "MALICIA" to test it right.

Wanna bet?

Cause you can "create" (sprite hack I would call) but Im a far off better PLAYER than you and ANYONE HERE is too.

Why do you think that EVERY MK game has BS and broken stuff? Cause the ALLMIGHTY CREATOR OF MK (Ed Boon) has zero to none experience on real gameplay testing or COMPETITIVE PLAY wich is what matters at the end of the day.

Oh, and hanzo (ASSashi) that post was hilarious, good stuff

Sure bro, it s a part joke, part serious for the guy to light up and realize that even if he wants to make something good, HE IS MAKING IT TO HIMSELF ONLY AND NOT FOR EVERYONE.

 

[FrozenWorm]

Like I said before... I was a hardcore player, I stopped playing seriously years ago, and nobody here puts in doubt your level.

Some people here might get confused because we're working with sprites and not (for example) 3D models; if we had 3D models people wouldn't be complaining that much. Please try to understand this is not a modification of UMK3, or any other existing MK game. We don't have UMK3 engine, so we cannot "add carefully" to maintain UMK3 playability, fixing some stuffs... is not the picture here.

This project is about having a lot of good elements from different MK games, a very good and solid engine and an original (yet familiar) vision. So, why are we taking the time to work in UMK3 gameplay? because I liked and it's likely the best base we can have, but once we have enough elements working and the game feels good (we want to use testers from this comunity before a beta release), we will make changes, having stuffs from other MK games and original stuffs as well...

For example, MK4 have a very good concept on kombos, the possibility of including special moves in any part of the already established kombos... I want that as a feature for all modes, and it will have strong consecuences in almost all the characters, so it will be necessary to change limits, further testing, and change damage.

Now, what I want to include is not stuff that come to my mind when I'm drunk or out of emotional thinking... I've been planning and making changes to the concept of this gameplay for over a year, I might say over 3 years considering a lot of elements and reyecting some ideas, changing them, all in paper. Getting my inspiration from a whole lot of different games... I want to share something with the comunity as an example:

I imagined what the gameplay of MKDA would be if they had included run and a block walking ability for all characters...

This was the idea I was playing with years ago:
BL, then F or B to walk... you can block proyectiles and still approach but you cannot run and you can only block mid or high moves...

I think it could have been an interesting gameplay concept for a new game, but not for MK... still, recently I recicled the idea into a move for Kintaro, it's like this:

BL, F to walk while blocking... it consumes the RN bar, once its empty he wont be able to walk. The RN bar wont refill if Kintaro is holding BL.

Kintaro would have the chance to press HP or HK while blocking and execute his powerfull attacks, so... this is an idea, I hope it wont open to a debate of balancing titans or anything. Kintaro will be balanced in MKR, with basic moves and a big change in his velocity and damage, he will still be a damaging character but balanced, so... what do you guys think of this idea?

I'd like to have some criticism on those Jax posts, that is Jax's concept for MKR (all characters will be similar), the idea is the idea is that he will have 10 moves by default, but they change when using the orbs for Enhanced Abilities Mode or More Damage Mode... and the goal is to have both modes with interesting features, and to have them both sort of balanced, so both modes are about as good as the other, but with their own differences, in terms of preferences.

 

[Shock]

The only game that has collision box detail is N64 MKT, and even that is not 100% accurate, but it's a good start. The custom collision is caused by the move, not that the collisions exist after you get hit, so for example, while Mileena is rolling, your collision changes, and once you get hit it goes back to normal. I will read the rest of the posts when I get home but I have to leave. Bleed I'm sure you can solve many of the issues so we'll have to talk on AIM sometime because I think we can get TONS of stuff done if we talk about this in real time.

 

[MKK hanzo]

Ok why dont make an all new game then? I mean use original sprites etc. You guys are quite good at editing I dont know.

Thing is that if you use the UMK3 chars (or any mk chars) ppl is "affected" to them and may not like them grabbing orbs or stuff like that.

Want suggestions?

* Use 2d Fighter Maker.

Thats the BEST advice I could give you. It will make your game better almost automatically.

Watch this, pure beauty created from scratch and got a gaming audience that actually helped it to get AN ACTUAL ARCADE RELEASE:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU5eg-wo71w

See?

 

[Bleed]

Changing the enemy's collision boxes without hitting them is really strange to hear. I don't know any character that does this in mugen, but here's one way I can think of doing it.

Using a helper, I can create a separate object that sticks to the enemy and give that the new collision boxes. Have the roll connect with the helper instead of the player's original collisions.

If the helper is hit, the enemy can go to the roll hit state.

It's a little complicated to set up, but I can do it.


I do have some 3D models I've been making, but that's far from finished. I'd like to make a game with the Unreal 3 editor/ UDK, but I'm still learning the basics of coding with that engine. I know mugen well enough to be able to do almost anything you can think of.

http://elecbyte.com/forum/index.php?topic=55.135

 

[MKK hanzo]

That's actually really good. I think Hanzo has a point about creating your own game. If you guys can already make sprites and 3D models I think you are better off making your own engine than using Mugen.

I don't know if dreemer is still down to do some coding but he basically hit a wall when he couldn't get sprites. You could easily make 2D sprites from the 3D models which would fit what he has already done.

Yes those Jax 3D renders look impressive.

I also love Frozenworm, no homo and dont take it personal. I wish he could gather ppl where he lives and do tourneys and all that.

 

[FrozenWorm]

Thanks 4 the suggestion Hanzo, but really... I have an idea, I don't want to change it. I want to have a new MK fighting game that I like.

An important part of that is to be able to make all of the characters very different in terms of gameplay and I've been collecting ideas for a long time and I feel capable of giving a lot of personality to 45 MK characters... I mean "different" like Hwoarang, King, Asuka, Jack-6 and Steve are...

I want to stay away from having a lot of characters and they are like this:
Power hit, Fireball, Teleport... so the fireball may change the effects and the power hit is different, but after a while you see characters are a combination of like 5 elements in different orders; like Kira, Darrius, Bo' Rai Cho, and pretty much all of the MKDA, MKD and MKA new characters... when you play MKA you see a lot of the same elements in different orders for all the characters... and notice that, they don't have too many moves, and there were kinetic, dash and teleport moves spreaded without thinking much.

So, like this move for Kintaro, I have a lot of original ideas for a lot of MK characters, and I'm planning to work on one character at a time, until I finish, then another, but they all will be very different, with elements from a lot of MK games, a UMK3 great engine feel in the gameplay and a very good balance with your help.

Right now we are capable of having perfectly created new characters that look like real life actors captured for the original MK3 (thanks to the mugen comunity), and monsters like Onaga or Blaze (thanks to Bleed's 3D modeling ability); the point is not to rush adding lots of characters like most mugen projects do.

 

[Lucky Day]

and I'm planning to work on one character at a time, until I finish, then another, .

^this. And make sure you don't go back on it. Just keep doing what you do, and take advice (and criticism from these boards and the top players) seriously.

You're absolutely right about most Mugen being awful because the developers don't listen to anyone, and just try to cram as much as they can into a game and think it will be cool because it has 1000 characters.


*also ugggh at Vangaurd Princess, lol.

 

[MKK hanzo]

Thanks 4 the suggestion Hanzo, but really... I have an idea, I don't want to change it. I want to have a new MK fighting game that I like.

An important part of that is to be able to make all of the characters very different in terms of gameplay and I've been collecting ideas for a long time and I feel capable of giving a lot of personality to 45 MK characters... I mean "different" like Hwoarang, King, Asuka, Jack-6 and Steve are...

I want to stay away from having a lot of characters and they are like this:
Power hit, Fireball, Teleport... so the fireball may change the effects and the power hit is different, but after a while you see characters are a combination of like 5 elements in different orders; like Kira, Darrius, Bo' Rai Cho, and pretty much all of the MKDA, MKD and MKA new characters... when you play MKA you see a lot of the same elements in different orders for all the characters... and notice that, they don't have too many moves, and there were kinetic, dash and teleport moves spreaded without thinking much.

So, like this move for Kintaro, I have a lot of original ideas for a lot of MK characters, and I'm planning to work on one character at a time, until I finish, then another, but they all will be very different, with elements from a lot of MK games, a UMK3 great engine feel in the gameplay and a very good balance with your help.

Right now we are capable of having perfectly created new characters that look like real life actors captured for the original MK3 (thanks to the mugen comunity), and monsters like Onaga or Blaze (thanks to Bleed's 3D modeling ability); the point is not to rush adding lots of characters like most mugen projects do.

Great then keep at it bro. I will wait and play, when you will provide me a demo BTW? I read that Konqrr and Shock get one. Could you link me?

Me for example didnt liked MKP... First day I played 4.1 or something, I found like 3 infs, 876598765 100% life combos. LOL at things like they let you do pop up combos in the corner and get pushed back BUT you could jump and keep punishing etc.

I sent in time these findings and they replied with: "Ok but im doing a new mod for the blood, check this new fatali....."

I never wrote to them again.

 

[FrozenWorm]

Yeap well... it's pointless to give anyone a demo right now, if you want to "give it a try" as a tester 4 our project you're welcome. As soon as Bleed has a good UMK3 base I will PM with a link to those interested in working as testers 4 the project.

The first release data should be about next december or something like that, I don't think it would be earlier because despite we're using MUGEN, this project will feature an unique engine build from scratch by Bleed, so that plus UMK3 gameplay, all the new modes, all the new animations and a good testing should take a lot of time. I hope by that time we have at least 4 characters working perfectly.

 

[NinjaGrinder]

LOL at things like they let you do pop up combos in the corner and get pushed back BUT you could jump and keep punishing etc.

isn't that the same broken as fuck stuff that you see in MKA (from the videos that I have seen)?

 

[FrozenWorm]

No... it was crappier, but their new beta will be a lot better.

 

[Lucky Day]

I honestly think when the time comes around you should let everyone who wants to test have a copy of the Beta demo. The more eyes on the project during development the better.

 

[MKK hanzo]

isn't that the same broken as fuck stuff that you see in MKA (from the videos that I have seen)?

Ugh... When I think on MKA and MKD my balls itch and hurt...

I honestly think when the time comes around you should let everyone who wants to test have a copy of the Beta demo. The more eyes on the project during development the better.

And hands hehe

 

[FrozenWorm]

No, I don't think that's the way we should handle the testing. I hope to have very talented people with a lot of experience, I think combo videos pioneers and tournament winners are the kind of people that can do the best job. This should be enough for a first beta release, then everyone can play the game and I'm totally sure the comunity will be of great help at finding even more stuffs because there always are.

However, I might announce when we enter into the beta testing phase of the project, and we might give a download link to forum members interested in helping. I just don't want to share download links to everyone because a lot of people might be waiting for a working game to play and enjoy, and releasing an unbalanced, buggy alpha would ruin the experience for everyone.

 

[Lucky Day]

No, I don't think that's the way we should handle the testing. I hope to have very talented people with a lot of experience, I think combo videos pioneers and tournament winners are the kind of people that can do the best job. This should be enough for a first beta release, then everyone can play the game and I'm totally sure the comunity will be of great help at finding even more stuffs because there always are.

However, I might announce when we enter into the beta testing phase of the project, and we might give a download link to forum members interested in helping. I just don't want to share download links to everyone because a lot of people might be waiting for a working game to play and enjoy, and releasing an unbalanced, buggy alpha would ruin the experience for everyone.

Giving it to a core group of players who you know are going to scrutinize every detail and have knowledge as to how frame data and hit detection works is more important than just giving it to people who know how to do combos and win tournaments in a finished game.

I think you might find that a lot of people who place well in tournaments either don't care to or don't know how to find problems with the actual engine specifics.

 

[Bleed]

I found a copy of MKT for N64 emulated at Romnation. Looks a little odd though, like it's not a direct copy of the cartridge I used to have. I need to find out how I can view the collision boxes.

I'm still waiting for some documents on UMK3, a few people say they have it, but haven't sent it my way.

my e-mail is ; [email protected]

Also hit me on youtube or here with a pm.

 

[Shock]

Enable both red and blue "?" menus:
Quickly press Block, HK, LK, Run, LP, HP, HP, HP, LP, LP during the story screen (C-Up, C-Right, C-Down, A, B(3), A(2) using the default controller configuration). A voice will say "Hi Mom" to confirm correct code entry. The red and blue question mark menus will be accessible allowing the following options:
Information in this section was contributed by Streetsk8r3490.

Red Question Mark menu
Freeplay - ON/OFF
Fatality Time - ON/OFF
Collision Boxes - ON/OFF
One Round Matches - ON/OFF

Blue Question Mark menu
Level Select - ON/OFF
Throwing - ENABLED/DISABLED
Unlimited Run - ENABLED/DISABLED
Bloody Kombat - ON/OFF
Human Smoke - ON/OFF
Khameleon - ON/OFF

Once you see how collision really works in MK games, you will be blown away. No one who has ever presented a Mugen game to me has ever had remotely accurate collisions. The problem the tiny collision boxes in MK causes in Mugen is very small push boxes, so those would all need to be done manually.

Bleed, I would prefer to talk to you over AIM because it's much easier. My AIM is TakerECW.

There are tons of recycled responses to hits hit MK that could easily be done in one shot and applied to everyone in a common file, but there are things that have different numbers of frames of animation, however rarely does this apply to only one character. For example, Jax, Sonya and Kano's sweep animation counts and timing are all the same, but there are about 10 character otherwise who have different data but are all the same. Stuff like that. There's no reason to program every character individually except for when things are different and I'm willing to give a run down of all of this.

Right now the goal should be to make one common file for all normal attacks, blocking, running, etc, so it can be applied to any character sprite set, and then it can be tweaked where it's needed from there. You make one normal common file and make the sffs for everyone's normals and you're 90% done with normals. The problem is mastering that.

As for the object helper concept for sweeps, a mugen programmer once suggested that to me, but he never had time to work on it. For a sweep, while it's active (the only during hot boxes), the cold collision box for the opponent is change and it changes every frame until the sweep is completed.

 

[Bleed]

I got you on AIM now, my user name is [email protected]

Yeah, that sweep collision sounds really strange. Only time I've noticed that is when countering special moves. You can miss by a couple feet and still get a hit.

 

[Bleed]

I got MKT for N64, but it's a hack. I downloaded the game from a few sites and it's the same hack. For some reason the question mark cheat doesn't work.

In story screen, press BLK, HK, LK, Run, LP, HP, HP, HP, LP, LP

I don't hear the word "Agua" = Water in spanish.

I have the CD for MKT on playstation but the code is not available on this one. Is there a special Rom for the N64 anybody know of with the working cheat?