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Match-up Discussion MMH Matchup List/ Discussion thread

Your ego betrays you.


EDIT: To explicate; as a fellow Martian, I remind all of us here to do rigorous testing. Theorycrafting is integral to figuring out MU's, but do not underestimate that it's still a 'theory'.
Which is why statements like 'Kung Lao-Kenshi is 9-1 Lao. Kenshi has no answer for Lao's rushdown game' came to pass.

kenshi lao is almost even... i practiced that matchup a LOT... its challenging but when played at the highest level close to even... its going to take a LONG time for theory to come into practice because this game is new... I mean what was counter-poking in year 1 of mk... I want to find out what counter-poking is in injustice... people still aren't even utilizing faints in mk..
 
Well this is precisely the problem, not enough players take responsibility for themselves as, well, players. There's several fighters out there that eliminates everything the community complains about, but how many do we see sticking with them for more than a few weeks?

And then there's the argument of if a player consistently beats a character that is frowned upon community wide, we'll hear the apologist argument that he was just able to outplay the perpetrator, but if the perpetrator gets just one win against the same guy, it'll be "LOL SEE, IT'S STILL 7-3 GUISE". Where's the middle ground?

More often than not, Kenshi would only ever beat KL because the KL player picked him up solely for the Kenshi matchup, and had no idea what they were doing, or what made the matchup bad, I think I speak for every seasoned Kenshi player that they'd rather deal with KL upclose than Kabal or Cyrax. Then we had players that had the nerve to call it a completely even matchup as a result.

(For the record, I don't think KL was Kenshi's worst matchup or 7-3 upwards for that matter, it was simply the most straight-forward counterpick compared to Kenshi's other bad matchups.)

Although IMO people are overreacting to MMH a bit so far, Kabal was hailed as having no weaknesses by players who greatly exaggerated his meter build and took almost 2 years to start punishing his buzzsaw. (But I do still think he was the best in MK9 because he collectively had the best matchup chart with no clear cut bad matchups)

I'm not trying to agree or disagree with anyone, just thought I'd give some perspective, for what it's worth.

People who think matchups aren't huge don't understand what happens when everyone gets good at a game... The better players get, and the more they understand the guessing games, the MORE and MORE characters play a role

If MK9 had a REALLY large competitive base with strong incentive too win (i.e money) then we would have seen almost noone but kabal, kenshi or kung lao, maybe cyrax sonya or freddy... We had 1 close to top notch KABAL (and i don't even think close, i think kabal had the most room to grow in our meta as a character), 1 close to top notch kenshi, 1 Shang (who wasn't top notch with all other characters), 0 freddies, 0 raidens.... Imagine if we had 10 REOs with kabal... the game would have been a 1 character battle. Look at MVC2

Our community has very few if any complete players. A lot of players don't play fundamentally perfect but make up for it with fantastic reads and mixups... others the vice versa.... We have a very WEAK competitive base... With a stronger base of competition matchups become more and more relevant as the meta evolves... especially considering the brokenness of this game and how it applies to basically 90% fulfilling your characters niche and abuse of tools.. Martian Manhunter is a HIGH learning curve character who also can be broken and WIN with a low learning curve... When someone like REO learns to zone extremely INTELLIGENTLY and utilizes MMH's 8 million tools, your going to see how badly he wrecks a lot of these characters. I hhave played the lex matchup enough to know for certain who the better character is.... It's what started to happen in mk and our community was weak... you'll see that what you initially thought was a 5.5 advantage becomes a 7-3, because when the skill levels plateau, any sort of advantage maximizes.... you'll see that ZOD and MMH are the true beasts of this game...

Kenshi had just about 1-2 bad matchups, I found the kung lao matchup relatively even and kabal was my worst with him... the rest mostly 6-4 and better
 
People who think matchups aren't huge don't understand what happens when everyone gets good at a game... The better players get, and the more they understand the guessing games, the MORE and MORE characters play a role

If MK9 had a REALLY large competitive base with strong incentive too win (i.e money) then we would have seen almost noone but kabal, kenshi or kung lao, maybe cyrax sonya or freddy... We had 1 close to top notch KABAL (and i don't even think close, i think kabal had the most room to grow in our meta as a character), 1 close to top notch kenshi, 1 Shang (who wasn't top notch with all other characters), 0 freddies, 0 raidens.... Imagine if we had 10 REOs with kabal... the game would have been a 1 character battle. Look at MVC2

Our community has very few if any complete players. A lot of players don't play fundamentally perfect but make up for it with fantastic reads and mixups... others the vice versa.... We have a very WEAK competitive base... With a stronger base of competition matchups become more and more relevant as the meta evolves... especially considering the brokenness of this game and how it applies to basically 90% fulfilling your characters niche and abuse of tools.. Martian Manhunter is a HIGH learning curve character who also can be broken and WIN with a low learning curve... When someone like REO learns to zone extremely INTELLIGENTLY and utilizes MMH's 8 million tools, your going to see how badly he wrecks a lot of these characters. I hhave played the lex matchup enough to know for certain who the better character is.... It's what started to happen in mk and our community was weak... you'll see that what you initially thought was a 5.5 advantage becomes a 7-3, because when the skill levels plateau, any sort of advantage maximizes.... you'll see that ZOD and MMH are the true beasts of this game...

Kenshi had just about 1-2 bad matchups, I found the kung lao matchup relatively even and kabal was my worst with him... the rest mostly 6-4 and better
mk9 could've been a war of the top tiers, but I still think if we had a bigger scene and if we played the game longer and kept it prevalent at majors, we'd still see a variety of characters. Street fighter for sure has the biggest scene for fighing games and we'll just use sf4, it has been going strong for some years now and we are still seeing characters not considered to be dominate like rose and guy in action. Ultimately, it comes down to the player and what they can do with the character they choose to do (even in bad matchups, a player who has put a big amount of time into their main can manage to obtain wins in a terrible matchup). Overall, MMH will definitely stay a top tier charcter, but I dnt see him fully dominating and being the best character. I don't think we'll be able to completely agree on who will be the best character in this game, it was easy in MK9 bcuz Kabal was the clear cut number one, but in this game it is very different. Also what exactly is a complete player? I'd just stick to calling players skilled.
 
mk9 could've been a war of the top tiers, but I still think if we had a bigger scene and if we played the game longer and kept it prevalent at majors, we'd still see a variety of characters. Street fighter for sure has the biggest scene for fighing games and we'll just use sf4, it has been going strong for some years now and we are still seeing characters not considered to be dominate like rose and guy in action. Ultimately, it comes down to the player and what they can do with the character they choose to do (even in bad matchups, a player who has put a big amount of time into their main can manage to obtain wins in a terrible matchup). Overall, MMH will definitely stay a top tier charcter, but I dnt see him fully dominating and being the best character. I don't think we'll be able to completely agree on who will be the best character in this game, it was easy in MK9 bcuz Kabal was the clear cut number one, but in this game it is very different. Also what exactly is a complete player? I'd just stick to calling players skilled.


A complete player plays the game systematically perfect, and also plays the opponent extremely well. But i see your point. Street fighter is a much better game in my opinion competitively because its so in depth in terms of spacing and its designed heavily for balance purposes, I think it rewards the player a lot more than injustice or mk9... I think the characters dominate more in injustice and mk9, especially injustice.
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
I've heard this, but the only reason I'm not jumping the gun on it being worse than 6 4 is because GA definitely has issues vs MMH, but there are some things he can do to make the matchup a lot better for him. Personally, GA should be using fire arrows a lot in the matchup. They make the matchup a lot different than if he just utilizes ice arrows mostly, but I could be wrong.

Instant air teleport punch negates arrows
 
A complete player plays the game systematically perfect, and also plays the opponent extremely well. But i see your point. Street fighter is a much better game in my opinion competitively because its so in depth in terms of spacing and its designed heavily for balance purposes, I think it rewards the player a lot more than injustice or mk9... I think the characters dominate more in injustice and mk9, especially injustice.
ah ok. And to be honest, the only issue most have with street fighter is what happens when some characters knock you down (like akuma, cammy, and etc.). But even with that, it is definitely a very solid game for sure. MK9 definitely had some super terrible matchups, but I think that could've been avoided by giving characters better pokes overall and not leaving characters without an armor move and etc. For IGAU, just giving every character a certain move similar to like AM's b1 or GL's b1 and etc. would help a lot because it make matchups like shazam vs GL a lot more manageable for shazam.
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
interesting, what if arrow decides to not use the arrow and to bait a tele out?

what like hold the arrow there?? he will get hit, you can't block while holding arrow out, pretty sure by the time you could dash cancel out of it the tele punch would hit as well,
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
Also, could someone tag REO please? that'd be nice and tag any other MMH players.

So you're not talking to yourself I'll post mine lol.

Aquaman: 5-5
Ares: 6-4
Bane: 5-5
Batgirl: 5-5
Batman: 5-5
Black Adam: 5-5
Catwoman: 5-5
Cyborg: 7-3
Deathstroke: 5-5
Doomsday: 4-6
Flash: 4-6
Green Arrow: 6-4
Green Lantern: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 6-4
Hawkgirl: 5-5
The Joker: 6-4
Killer Frost: 5-5
Lex Luthor: 5-5
Lobo: 6-4
Nightwing: 5-5
Raven: 6-4
Scorpion: 6-4
Shazam: 5-5
Sinestro: 6-4
Solomon Grundy: 5-5
Superman: 5-5
Wonder Woman: 5-5
Zod: 5-5
Zatanna: 6-4
 
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Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Agreed with DD number. DD can shut down MMH's zoning with good dashes and well timed MB Venom. His trait alone is a free " i m coming to destroy you" mean of getting in and there isnt much MMH can do. If he tries to jump or air dash he can be ASed.
 

JnTonioo

Yurp
So you're not talking to yourself I'll post mine lol.

Aquaman: 5-5
Ares: 6-4
Bane: 5-5
Batgirl: 5-5
Batman: 4-6
Black Adam: 5-5
Catwoman: 5-5
Cyborg: 7-3
Deathstroke: 5-5
Doomsday: 4-6
Flash: 4-6
Green Arrow: 6-4
Green Lantern: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 6-4
Hawkgirl: 5-5
The Joker: 6-4
Killer Frost: 5-5
Lex Luthor: 5-5
Lobo: 6-4
Nightwing: 5-5
Raven: 6-4
Scorpion: 6-4
Shazam: 5-5
Sinestro: 6-4
Solomon Grundy: 5-5
Superman: 4-6
Wonder Woman: 5-5
Zod: 5-5
Zatanna: 6-4

i agree with everything but i think SM vs MMH is even imo.
 
I'm not gonna say its 6-4 SHAZAM but It seems like a good counter pick to me. SHAZAM's teleport makes his zoning to an extent irrelevant plus the wake up makes orbs setups dangerous for the man hunter to attempt. It makes him have to take the fight to him upclose where shazam gets scarier. Shazams fast mobility gives his teleport attacks a run for his money aswell. It really evens up with Martians trait, but shazams godlike d2, d3, and command grabs ample whiff punnishers on those big hit boxes
 

DarkPage

Noob
i doubt this would effect the match up cause im sure people know you can d2 martian OH teleport with some characters, but out of out trying aquaman, WW and grundy, WW is the easiest to knock him out of it and 27% combo. definitely not something to try and do online tho lol but decent enough to do on a read offline, you can sortve react to it and do it, but its got a weird timing
 

AK Stormthegates

WOOLAY!!!!
i honestly feel like MMH/GL is 7-3 borderline 8-2. When MMH gets space he has every answer to all of GL zoning and space control options that it makes it incredibly hard for him to get in. You can react instant air tele to almost everything he does into orb vortex. I'm actually curious to hear people's opinion on this matchup in order to help out my local GL players and training partner but I honestly feel like I'm in complete control in this matchup.
 
i honestly feel like MMH/GL is 7-3 borderline 8-2. When MMH gets space he has every answer to all of GL zoning and space control options that it makes it incredibly hard for him to get in. You can react instant air tele to almost everything he does into orb vortex. I'm actually curious to hear people's opinion on this matchup in order to help out my local GL players and training partner but I honestly feel like I'm in complete control in this matchup.
6 4 is as far as I can go on that one. Play my bro in it all the time and to be honest, it can be a time out fest when played correctly. MMH outzones him, but only for so long since he only has one hit projectiles and ex orbs are the only orbs that will actually keep GL away. Once he gets in his lift distance, you have to respect him or it'll be a full combo for him and he'll be able to go into his oki game. Once he is in, he can blow up martians wakeup push with meter f3/b3 or blow up his low scoop as well. If the MMH is crazy enough to tele, he can avoid that too. You be forced to deal with his 50/50s and those are always dangerous and high damaging. Honestly, GL won't have a 7 3 as long as he keeps the tools he possesses.
 
I'm not gonna say its 6-4 SHAZAM but It seems like a good counter pick to me. SHAZAM's teleport makes his zoning to an extent irrelevant plus the wake up makes orbs setups dangerous for the man hunter to attempt. It makes him have to take the fight to him upclose where shazam gets scarier. Shazams fast mobility gives his teleport attacks a run for his money aswell. It really evens up with Martians trait, but shazams godlike d2, d3, and command grabs ample whiff punnishers on those big hit boxes
i'd call it MMH favor, but then again, it can definitely be even. I've played some solid shazam online, but haven't got to chance to run the matchup offline, so we'll have to see.