Match-up Discussion MK9 2013 Tier List

[xKhaoTik]

Yes but Kitana's corner game is only concerning because she has better damage. Nothing else stands out. She isn't opening him up. As I said I agree that Kitana having a life lead is much harder and Sub Zero might have to take risks to get in but it isn't THAT hard to get in. I think it's a tough 4-6 but he has tougher matches.

OK but even if you do manage to get in, what are you doing? My footsies, pokes, range, speed, damage, etc is far superior to yours.

Idk, I've played some good sub's, tom being the best, and they all seem to agree this is 7-3.

Like I said, she doesn't even have to do much but zone accordingly. That means a lot.

 

[NKZero]

dude, who cares if he cant counterpoke, scorpion does not poke for advantage, sektor does have to worry about shit whiffing and normal takedown is a good wakeup vs sektor

man you have not played this matchup vs a good scorpion.

Perhaps my MU experience isn't as extensive or I haven't found the right Scorpion so-to speak. Nonetheless I'm talking about tools and experience of situations I've been in, in this MU.

I'm not saying poke for advantage but the fact that you cannot poke to escape unless your d+4 hits (even that is 0 on hit), is troublesome. When Sektor can rush a character down, you're in trouble because he isn't designed to be a rush down character but his strings when they connect are really good and he still has tricky mix-ups.

Also b+3 stuffs take down so you need the EX version more often than not.

 

[16 Bit]

It's not d+1 vs. d+4. It's d+4 vs. jump ins, 2,1, f+2,1 and d+1. If Kitana is right she gets half life. If Sub-Zero out footsies her with his d+4 he gets a whatever guessing game.

Tom was the only Sub-Zero that could even consistently get games on me. That match really played to his strengths. He played it the best and still couldn't win.

 

[Qwark28]

Perhaps my MU experience isn't as extensive or I haven't found the right Scorpion so-to speak. Nonetheless I'm talking about tools and experience of situations I've been in, in this MU.

I'm not saying poke for advantage but the fact that you cannot poke to escape unless your d+4 hits (even that is 0 on hit), is troublesome. When Sektor can rush a character down, you're in trouble because he isn't designed to be a rush down character but his strings when they connect are really good and he still has tricky mix-ups.

Also b+3 stuffs take down so you need the EX version more often than not.

you have nothing to hit confirm from. b34 is really hard to hit confirm and the whole point is blocking low vs sektor

d4 will not be used to escape pressure. d1 takedown will.

you cant rush scorpion, he rushes you down better, you also dont have formidable zoning, just good.

I just wanna see what youll do when you get hit once for 40% straight into a vortex.

 

[NKZero]

OK but even if you do manage to get in, what are you doing? My footsies, pokes, range, speed, damage, etc is far superior to yours.

Idk, I've played some good sub's, tom being the best, and they all seem to agree this is 7-3.

Like I said, she doesn't even have to do much but zone accordingly. That means a lot.

Undoubtedly I agree Kitana excels in every area. I mean let's say I somehow get a slide to hit as you're jumping up for an air fan. Knockdown situation. Kitana we know has a weak wake-up game. I can get a throw or a block string or anything. As long as I am in a range where slide cannot be reacted to you have to be wary somewhat because you don't want to get knocked down either.

I can see it 7-3 on the basis that Kitana is just better at everything but I look at it from the viewpoint that MU is about life-leads and both are capable of defending it, Kitana slightly better at defending it and achieving it.

Who I am to argue with Tom in any case? I would trust his judgement over mine for sure.

 

[NKZero]

you have nothing to hit confirm from. b34 is really hard to hit confirm and the whole point is blocking low vs sektor

d4 will not be used to escape pressure. d1 takedown will.

you cant rush scorpion, he rushes you down better, you also dont have formidable zoning, just good.

I just wanna see what youll do when you get hit once for 40% straight into a vortex.

Well I was curious about Scorpion's hit-box. I thought Sektor's high strings connected for some reason.

The reason I mentioned d+4 is because max range f+2 gives pushback so that you won't be able to d+1. Only poke that can reach is d+4. Why does Scorpion rush down better?

But back to the original point, if I'm mistaken about the hit-box then that would change the MU number. I was saying 3-7 on the premise that Sektor has free offense off all his strings. I may be mistaken and if so apologies for that.

 

[NKZero]

It's not d+1 vs. d+4. It's d+4 vs. jump ins, 2,1, f+2,1 and d+1. If Kitana is right she gets half life. If Sub-Zero out footsies her with his d+4 he gets a whatever guessing game.

Tom was the only Sub-Zero that could even consistently get games on me. That match really played to his strengths. He played it the best and still couldn't win.

Fair enough.

So you think it's a matter of risk-reward being heavily in her favour?

I don't think Kitana can maintain pressure on Sub Zero but she does always need just one 2, 1 or f+2, 1 to get a full combo and the round is over. That I agree with for sure.

 

[ryublaze]

I think Slips and iKizzle said it was 5-5 a long time ago but I can see it being 6-4 maybe if Sektor has him in the corner. There's also a behind missile setup that stops all of Scorpion's wake-ups but I don't think that matters much.

 

[16 Bit]

Slide gets punished for half life. That'd be ok if Sub had better options to threaten her once she's respecting it but he doesn't. He can only walk up or jump. Which is rough since her default strategy is to be constantly spamming an anti-air projectile.

Normally I am the first to complain about Kitana's wakes but that's when a character has strong offense and stuffing them matter. Getting stuffed by his d+4 is whatever when EX Lift or cutter have such good reward for blowing up his block string or grab attempt. He just doesn't do enough damage.

 

[DemoniChris]

I agree with Quan in D tier
[salt intensifies]

 

[16 Bit]

Fair enough.

So you think it's a matter of risk-reward being heavily in her favour?

I don't think Kitana can maintain pressure on Sub Zero but she does always need just one 2, 1 or f+2, 1 to get a full combo and the round is over. That I agree with for sure.

It's simply a matter of risk vs. reward, yes. Maybe if Sub-Zero did more damage.

When Tom got games on me it was almost always by time out lol.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

IMO quan is B tier. He really shouldn't be in the same category as jade

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Did you put the blindfold on before or after REO demonstrated the power of kenshi on CD Jr at CEO? I seriously can't remember, it's been way too long lol

Hmmmm 9 months before

By then I had placed top 3 at 5 majors and won MWC

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

Hmmmm 9 months before

By then I had placed top 3 at 5 majors and won MWC

Ahhh thanks man.

lol @ kenshi was mid tier, Jesus.

 

[RM Truth]

dude, who cares if he cant counterpoke, scorpion does not poke for advantage, sektor does have to worry about shit whiffing and normal takedown is a good wakeup vs sektor

man you have not played this matchup vs a good scorpion.

Every option that Scorpion has after a vortex is punishable if blocked outside of a spaced out B2, and he has no reliable way of getting in unless he reads a missile with a teleport, and even then, he just gets pressure. Sektor suffers from the same issues but his control over scorpion is much better with up missile setups. This may not be 7-3, but it's certainly not even. I think 6-4 Sektor is a good #.

 

[Qwark28]

Every option that Scorpion has after a vortex is punishable if blocked outside of a spaced out B2, and he has no reliable way of getting in unless he reads a missile with a teleport, and even then, he just gets pressure. Sektor suffers from the same issues but his control over scorpion is much better with up missile setups. This may not be 7-3, but it's certainly not even. I think 6-4 Sektor is a good #.

hell no.

missile can be ex speared on reaction from closer ranges

why is every option after vortex punishable? 111 pressure is - on block? throws? f3/f4 takedown?

just the fact that the flowchart jip 111 takedown is 7-8% adds to the overall damage from being caught by him. And a correctly spaced B2 on hit is not only unpunishable but is 40% into the chip I mentioned above, 47-48% overall damage and thats if he doesnt mix it up with 1/11/takedown/throw/f3/f4 etc

 

[Immortal]

hell no.

missile can be ex speared on reaction from closer ranges

why is every option after vortex punishable? 111 pressure is - on block? throws? f3/f4 takedown?

just the fact that the flowchart jip 111 takedown is 7-8% adds to the overall damage from being caught by him. And a correctly spaced B2 on hit is not only unpunishable but is 40% into the chip I mentioned above, 47-48% overall damage and thats if he doesnt mix it up with 1/11/takedown/throw/f3/f4 etc

111 is neutral on block as is f3 and f4 is -5 which means its still quite safe.

 

[RM Truth]

hell no.

missile can be ex speared on reaction from closer ranges

why is every option after vortex punishable? 111 pressure is - on block? throws? f3/f4 takedown?

just the fact that the flowchart jip 111 takedown is 7-8% adds to the overall damage from being caught by him. And a correctly spaced B2 on hit is not only unpunishable but is 40% into the chip I mentioned above, 47-48% overall damage and thats if he doesnt mix it up with 1/11/takedown/throw/f3/f4 etc

I'm talking about up missile after a knockdown. 11 pressure after a vortex is fine, but you'll eventually have to commit to something to hit them. You're not going to be able to rely on takedown the whole match since ur giving him pressure every time. Like I said, this probably isn't 7-3, but there's no way that this is even.

 

[RM Truth]

111 is neutral on block as is f3 and f4 is -5 which means its still quite safe.

I'm well aware of that, but Scorpion doesn't get anywhere by playing safe all the time.

 

[Qwark28]

111 is neutral on block as is f3 and f4 is -5 which means its still quite safe.

yeah, i know, i didnt actually mean i didnt know the frame data.

 

[xSMoKEx]

Moved Cyrax up above Sonya and added him to S Tier. I feel like him and Sonya are very close tier wise, and both of them are at least comparable to Kenshi.

Kabal is only in his own tier because he has no bad match-ups, he is comparable to the other S Tiers in the majority of winning mu's because all of them do extremely well but the fact that they all lose to Kabal or go even at best, and he loses nothing definitely calls for a tier gap.

Baraka was moved up to be about on-par with Rain.

Raiden was moved down and Sektor and Shang Tsung have been moved up.

Raiden has a huge hitbox, some sub-par normals in terms of spacing (B3 is nice but it's not hit-confirmable leaving you with B31 / B312 which have way too many recovery frames to be truly practical vs. the high tiers godly spacing game). He has good pro's in his ability to counter zoning characters but he still does not beat them badly if at all. (ex. Raiden vs. Kenshi / Kabal / Freddy is probably 5-5 at best) and he doesn't do well vs. the other rushdown or more well rounded characters either. He's fairly well rounded but his lack of advantageous or even match ups against the top tiers in this game make it hard to rank him in the top 15. He's arguable for the 14-15 spot imo but nothing more.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm talking about up missile after a knockdown. 11 pressure after a vortex is fine, but you'll eventually have to commit to something to hit them. You're not going to be able to rely on takedown the whole match since ur giving him pressure every time. Like I said, this probably isn't 7-3, but there's no way that this is even.

we also have ex spear /takedown after a -4 normal takedown.

overall scorpion does great meterless damage, has options up close, can get in with teleport once in a while, can destroy normal str8 missile up close into a vortex and builds meter fast vs a character with very iffy pressure and no good whiff punish tools.

dead even imo

 

[Immortal]

I'm well aware of that, but Scorpion doesn't get anywhere by playing safe all the time.

I didn't say he does. Only replied to Qwark question. Scorpion gameplay is based around taking risks for reward, everybody knows that. Thats why (among other things) hes mediocre at best. Sektor isn't much better thou.

 

[RM Truth]

we also have ex spear /takedown after a -4 normal takedown.

overall scorpion does great meterless damage, has options up close, can get in with teleport once in a while, can destroy normal str8 missile up close into a vortex and builds meter fast vs a character with very iffy pressure and no good whiff punish tools.

dead even imo

Is ex spear frame 1 armor?

 

[Qwark28]

Is ex spear frame 1 armor?

yeah, this isnt like injustice.