What's new

Match-up Discussion MK9 2013 Tier List

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
80%, 1 bar, practical.
2 bars, BREAKER-KILLING AND PRACTICAL.
Countless different variations.
Countless different setups.
Answers for almost everything.
+5 334 and +...11 i think it was for F2?
Command Grab.

All together. In one robot.
And a human variation that trades small bits of damage for 121 Saw and a SAFE TELEPORT.

And it doesn't make him #3?
After winning EVO, perhaps #2?

Cyrax.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
I think scorpion should be higher than sub zero (possibly switch positions).

Sub struggles horribly in way more match-ups than Scorp IMO

Also how is Quan Chi not at least C tier?

Other than that it looks pretty accurate to me.
 

NKZero

Noob
I think scorpion should be higher than sub zero (possibly switch positions).

Sub struggles horribly in way more match-ups than Scorp IMO

Also how is Quan Chi not at least C tier?

Other than that it looks pretty accurate to me.
Scorpion has a lot of lop-sided MU's...more than you may think. Sonya, Cage, Sektor, Kabal, Raiden are all at least 3-7. Scorpion loses when he can't throw out hellfire or spear 'comfortably' or when he gets rushed down.

Sub Zero loses to heavy zoning primarily. I think he has tools to deal with other stuff.
 

NickDaGreek1983

Oh, my days !
80%, 1 bar, practical.
2 bars, BREAKER-KILLING AND PRACTICAL.
Countless different variations.
Countless different setups.
Answers for almost everything.
+5 334 and +...11 i think it was for F2?
Command Grab.

All together. In one robot.
And a human variation that trades small bits of damage for 121 Saw and a SAFE TELEPORT.

And it doesn't make him #3?
After winning EVO, perhaps #2?

Cyrax.
WOW! Actually, this sums it up pretty perfectly... And I guess that by "2 bars, breaker killing" you mean 1 bar to take your meter(and breaker) and one for the enhanced bomb, right? Cause draining meter makes him even lamer.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Scorpion has a lot of lop-sided MU's...more than you may think. Sonya, Cage, Sektor, Kabal, Raiden are all at least 3-7. Scorpion loses when he can't throw out hellfire or spear 'comfortably' or when he gets rushed down.

Sub Zero loses to heavy zoning primarily. I think he has tools to deal with other stuff.
Dont you think that Sub has at least as many 3-7s as Scorp though? I would imagine that Kabal has to be a 3-7 for sub. By the time sub slowly works his way in on Kabal's zoning and finally gets a touch on him, he will undoubtedly have breaker and even if he gets a second touch, sub doesnt do any freaking damage. At least scorp can force kabal to be careful about abusing IAGB because of teleport and when he finally touches him he at least has a chance of doing some damage with his Vortex. And what does Sub do against Kenshi or Freddy, those easily have to be 3-7 or even worse. Also Kitana is probably a 3-7 for sub as well.

Im not arguing with you really, im just saying that it seems like Scorp at least CAN potentially do some damage where as subs just does none. And the argument that Scorp has several 3-7s is not really that valid because Sub has several that may even be worse than that. The way Tom played sub at the end of the games life is a testament to that (basically trying to get a minimal life lead on a good read and then go for a time out which is VERY difficult given the tools that many of his bad matchup characters have). Even if Scorp should not be higher I think that sub should be lower. They both have several awful matchups but again, at least scorp has potential to do some damage once he gets a touch (granted the risk is ridiculously high for Scorp as well)
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
There is no safe teleport in MK9. Human Cyrax has a better/safer teleport than Robot Cyrax but it's still not as good as Raiden's teleport and of course it's far from safe.

Raiden's EX teleport is unpunishable I believe unless you make a read on it, which is damn near impossible. I'm almost positive that after a Human Cyrax teleports he can block.

EDIT: Just checked. Human Cyrax is behind the opponent for 24 frames and is invincible for 22 frames, so I suppose if you make a read on it you can punish it, but hitting inside a 2 frame window is pretty unlikely.
 

NKZero

Noob
Dont you think that Sub has at least as many 3-7s as Scorp though? I would imagine that Kabal has to be a 3-7 for sub. By the time sub slowly works his way in on Kabal's zoning and finally gets a touch on him, he will undoubtedly have breaker and even if he gets a second touch, sub doesnt do any freaking damage. At least scorp can force kabal to be careful about abusing IAGB because of teleport and when he finally touches him he at least has a chance of doing some damage with his Vortex. And what does Sub do against Kenshi or Freddy, those easily have to be 3-7 or even worse. Also Kitana is probably a 3-7 for sub as well.

Im not arguing with you really, im just saying that it seems like Scorp at least CAN potentially do some damage where as subs just does none. And the argument that Scorp has several 3-7s is not really that valid because Sub has several that may even be worse than that. The way Tom played sub at the end of the games life is a testament to that (basically trying to get a minimal life lead on a good read and then go for a time out which is VERY difficult given the tools that many of his bad matchup characters have). Even if Scorp should not be higher I think that sub should be lower. They both have several awful matchups but again, at least scorp has potential to do some damage once he gets a touch (granted the risk is ridiculously high for Scorp as well)
You make some good points. Sub Zero loses 3-7 or worse to Kabal, Kenshi and Freddy. Kitana I don't think is as bad but it is probably a 4-6. Sub Zero definitely has it tough but I think he's overall a better character tool wise. Scorpion is very hit and miss as you pointed out with the vortex. Sub Zero's damage isn't great as you also correctly stated.

I think Sub Zero has consistency going for him in his tools. One of the best d+4's, one of the best corner games and maybe the best special in the game with his ice clone. Not to mention his x-ray has some use. It's tough but I'd give a slight edge to Sub Zero. Scorpion's game is far too risky for my liking.

On second thought I'm not sure who's better. Maybe I'm biased as a Sub Zero player :p.
 
Raiden's EX teleport is unpunishable I believe unless you make a read on it, which is damn near impossible. I'm almost positive that after a Human Cyrax teleports he can block.

EDIT: Just checked. Human Cyrax is behind the opponent for 24 frames and is invincible for 22 frames, so I suppose if you make a read on it you can punish it, but hitting inside a 2 frame window is pretty unlikely.
Oh you are right i forgot about Raiden's EX teleport. Yeah that's safe.
Regarding Human Cyrax, if it's only 2 frame window I see that its hard to punish it with full combo after he teleports but its very easy to get at least a blockstring since you have all the time to react when you see the startup (Of course a good HCyrax won't teleport randomly lol).
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
WOW! Actually, this sums it up pretty perfectly... And I guess that by "2 bars, breaker killing" you mean 1 bar to take your meter(and breaker) and one for the enhanced bomb, right? Cause draining meter makes him even lamer.
I think he means unbreakable damage that nearly kills you for 2 bars
It's time to get yellow.


You're both right, actually.
21 EX Net or one of the B2 variations, either works just fine.

It seems like the only thing between the 2 games I still really know my shit about is Cyrax.
And there is no way in any of the seven hells he isn't at least Top 3.
Not to mention he can go almost even with Kabal, and he may even beat Kenshi, as I always thought and I think AK Pig Of The Hut attested to in the past, which is something pretty much no one else in the cast can say on both counts. Kung Lao can rival Kabal at the top level, but not Kenshi. Sonya can't beat either consistently. Freddy can't beat either consistently. None of the top 10 can handle them both except him. And the only one who can really give Cyrax's game trouble is Kabal. The rest of them can be worked around and exploited to a decent degree, Kabal is just a fucking fortress that takes the patience of a machine to defeat.
Last I checked, that gives him at least a bronze in my book. He'd have the silver if Kenshi didn't have so many lopsidedly good matchups, but from a strictly character standpoint, there are few logical reasons to play Kenshi over Cyrax other than personal preference.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
So was Kabal, but he had his fair share of downplayers.
Thats a different story. Some things about Kabal were discovered pretty late in the game (take first EVO as example how many Kabals in top 8?), so he was downplayed. Kenshi on the other hand was quite fast (in relation) recognized as top 2-3 (Thanks to Pig obviously ;) ).