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Match-up Discussion MK9 2013 Tier List

zaf

professor
I thought the same thing, but I believe that what led to this consensus is:

1) Rain's normals aren't particularly the fastest.
2) His lightning and water bubble are not sufficient to serve as zoning tools. He must stay within at least half-screen range to compete.
3) His teleport gets him in, but at a risk.
4) All of the more known characters can essentially do what he can, only they can do it better.

Perhaps those who truly main Rain (I'm sorry for the unintended pun) can comment further on this.

AK Reno_Racks AK Smarrgasm BookBurning

^^ Pretty much this.
Rain has never really given me a problem with any character that I messed around with.
He has nothing that makes you fear him. Nothing to really be scared about.
He has no "real" way in either. He has to play a solid footsies game, but his footsies are not even all that great.
They are not bad, just not great compared to the cast.
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Reptile up to A
Baraka up to B
Rain down to D
Jade and Stryker down to F
Kano up to D

Other than that it's pretty solid.
So you think Baraka is fairly underrated too huh? I feel as though as long as he can control space (aka not Kabal, Kitana, Jax, Cage, Smoke, Kenshi, Sonya and maybe 1 or 2 others) he does well. Controlling space is his game and he actually does it pretty damn well vs. most.

Rain is pretty bad lets look at this way, is he really worse than Scorpion and Cyber Sub, and comparable to Nightwolf, Jade and Stryker? IDK he has some pretty shit mu's but he still has high damage and Ex Roundhouse for some sick armor and a decent mid in 4.
I definitely think he's low tier and we should try and zero in on his placement, but i'm not sure he's quite that low :\

I'm all ears though thats the purpose of this thread, I don't just wanna shut people down I want a legitimate discussion.
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Basically what Blake said but ill edit in my thoughts later on.
I feel like if Rain's 43 has less recovery frames and didn't whiff vs. low crouching attacks like D3's, and Lightning was either faster or did more damage he would be a much more solid character.

His strengths are definitely in his damage and armor, his pressure is just okay and his spacing isn't quite enough because he can't trade well in the fireball game due to lightning being fairly ass and waterball being slow and -1 million on block. If he had some more options in 43 and lightning for trading occasionally I could see him being possibly B Tier. (of course he would need poke normalizations too because his D1 and D3 are pretty booty).
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Dave where do you think Kano is then? By your standards (aka agreeing with the Smoke vs. Freddy MU lmao) im the least cowardly Smoke player on gods green earth, so thats gotta count for something.

I seriously think it's unquestionable that Kano is bottom 5 though,
Kano is bottom five, indeed, because of online players' and the Smoke community's whining.

I like this thread, but a better one would be "Lessons learned from Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice: GAU".

1. Ignore all online players. Their input should never be considered when balancing any fighting game.
2. Ignore all Smoke players who claimed Smoke vs. Freddy is 6:4.
3. Ignore all GGA players who claimed that pre-patch Deathstroke was broken, but pre-patch Scorpion was fine.
 

NKZero

Noob
S+ Tier: Kabal
S Tier: Kenshi, Cyrax
S- Tier: Sonya, Kung Lao, Freddy
A+ Tier: Raiden, Skarlet, Smoke, Johnny Cage, Reptile, Kitana
A Tier: Jax, Liu Kang, Shang Tsung, Sektor
A- Tier: Ermac, Mileena, Rain, Sub Zero
B+ Tier: Quan Chi, Baraka, Scorpion, Sindel
B Tier: Cyber Sub Zero, Noob Saibot, Nightwolf
B- Tier: Jade, Stryker, Kano
C Tier: Sheeva
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Kano is bottom five, indeed, because of online players' and the Smoke community's whining.

I like this thread, but a better one would be "Lessons learned from Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice: GAU".

1. Ignore all online players. Their input should never be considered when balancing any fighting game.
2. Ignore all Smoke players who claimed Smoke vs. Freddy is 6:4.
3. Ignore all GGA players who claimed that pre-patch Deathstroke was broken, but pre-patch Scorpion was fine.
Still got a voice then 7-3 bro:REO

I really do think a thread that you mentioned might prove beneficial though, especially to the newer players who are bound to make the same mistakes we all did lol. Characters really need time to develop and although IGAU was slightly better in terms of not over-patching things than MK9 was, there was definitely still some work to be done from both NRS and the community.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
I feel like if Rain's 43 has less recovery frames and didn't whiff vs. low crouching attacks like D3's, and Lightning was either faster or did more damage he would be a much more solid character.

His strengths are definitely in his damage and armor, his pressure is just okay and his spacing isn't quite enough because he can't trade well in the fireball game due to lightning being fairly ass and waterball being slow and -1 million on block. If he had some more options in 43 and lightning for trading occasionally I could see him being possibly B Tier. (of course he would need poke normalizations too because his D1 and D3 are pretty booty).

If anyone needs "poke normalizations," it's Scorpion.

Like...his d3 being negative on hit and block? And his d4 being neutral on hit and negative on block? Are you fucking kidding me? :( His only good poke was d1 and boy, did it make a godlike anti-air.

And I wonder how I managed to compete with the character.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
If anyone needs "poke normalizations," it's Scorpion.

Like...his d3 being negative on hit and block? And his d4 being neutral on hit and negative on block? Are you fucking kidding me? :( His only good poke was d1 and boy, did it make a godlike anti-air.

And I wonder how I managed to compete with the character.
You didn't ;). It doesn't matter that Scorpion has shit pokes and an unsafe 50/50. He's a hell-spawn!
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
If anyone needs "poke normalizations," it's Scorpion.

Like...his d3 being negative on hit and block? And his d4 being neutral on hit and negative on block? Are you fucking kidding me? :( His only good poke was d1 and boy, did it make a godlike anti-air.

And I wonder how I managed to compete with the character.
Having ass pokes in his game definitely make a HUGE difference, especially considering the fact that most characters who have ass pokes don't have the safe bs launching armor or the awesome low / mid normals to counterpoke anyways.

The annoying thing is, most characters who have those awesome armored moves and normals ALSO have the good pokes, which accounts for the big tier differences in this game imo. Compare Jax and Sonya who both have godly pokes, armor and moves like Sonya's D4, D3 (its decent at least) standing 4, iaDivekick, Ex Kartwheel and Jax with his armor, D3, d1, armored everything, F4, etc to someone like Scorpion ....

dafuq happened.
 
Pretty solid, I'd just make some minor adjustments:

Cyrax up to S
switch Lao and Freddy
move Shang up in B tier (above Liu I'd say)
put Quan in the middle of C (LBSH about rune trap)
move Jade to F

Edit: I noticed Rain's placing. I'd switch him and Sub.
 

zaf

professor
If anyone needs "poke normalizations," it's Scorpion.

Like...his d3 being negative on hit and block? And his d4 being neutral on hit and negative on block? Are you fucking kidding me? :( His only good poke was d1 and boy, did it make a godlike anti-air.

And I wonder how I managed to compete with the character.
all he needs are better frames and he would of jumped up a lot more then where he is
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
WoundCowboy who do you think are Shang's worst MU's? I think smoke, lao, kabal, sonya, kenshi and Cyrax body him all relatively free (7-3 for all with the exception of maybe the latter two).

Smoke could be in the same tier as Freddy and Lao for sure all 3 of these characters are super solid but they all also have those one or two complete ass match ups. I wanna break it down more I feel like we should compare their MU's and tools a lot more closely.

Also Reptile was kinda just thrown there thats not really exact. He's within that tier but he's not necessarily at the top like it shows.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
WoundCowboy who do you think are Shang's worst MU's? I think smoke, lao, kabal, sonya, kenshi and Cyrax body him all relatively free (7-3 for all with the exception of maybe the latter two).

Smoke could be in the same tier as Freddy and Lao for sure all 3 of these characters are super solid but they all also have those one or two complete ass match ups. I wanna break it down more I feel like we should compare their MU's and tools a lot more closely.
kenshi does NOT beat shang 7-3

NOT
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
kenshi does NOT beat shang 7-3

NOT
6-4? Thats why i said with the exception of the latter two. Ground and air skulls probably give Kenshi some trouble among other things since they're not actually reflected and they're fast anyways so taking a risk to try and reflect (aka make them disappear) isn't quite worth it.

Who do you think belongs in Kenshi's tier realistically as well?
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
6-4? Thats why i said with the exception of the latter two. Ground and air skulls probably give Kenshi some trouble among other things since they're not actually reflected and they're fast anyways so taking a risk to try and reflect (aka make them disappear) isn't quite worth it.

Who do you think belongs in Kenshi's tier realistically as well?
Kabal
Kenshi
Sonya
Cyrax

is my order
 
So you think Baraka is fairly underrated too huh? I feel as though as long as he can control space (aka not Kabal, Kitana, Jax, Cage, Smoke, Kenshi, Sonya and maybe 1 or 2 others) he does well. Controlling space is his game and he actually does it pretty damn well vs. most.

Rain is pretty bad lets look at this way, is he really worse than Scorpion and Cyber Sub, and comparable to Nightwolf, Jade and Stryker? IDK he has some pretty shit mu's but he still has high damage and Ex Roundhouse for some sick armor and a decent mid in 4.
I definitely think he's low tier and we should try and zero in on his placement, but i'm not sure he's quite that low :\

I'm all ears though thats the purpose of this thread, I don't just wanna shut people down I want a legitimate discussion.
Baraka is easily better than every other character you've got in C tier. Not by miles, but enough.
You're right, spacing is what he's all about, so unless you can force him to come in constantly he can be extremely dangerous.
Also, he can space Cage very well. If Cage want's to get really aggressive in his approach Baraka can shut him down at every turn; He just has to be ready for it and react quickly while making solid reads in the neutral game. Likewise for the Cage player. A solid 5-5.
And Smoke gets fucked up in the corner by Baraka. :p

Rain is D tier because he can't get in or stay in, is a footsie-based character with mediocre footsie tools, bad pokes, and a giant-ass hitbox.
Damage doesn't quite make up for all that, IMO, much like NW.
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Interested in hearing from Foxy and Death about Sonya and if they feel she belongs in the same tier as Kenshi and more importantly Cyrax. I definitely think Cyrax could be moved up.
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Kabal
Kenshi
Sonya
Cyrax

is my order
agree or disagree that Kenshi has a higher skill cap than Sonya as well? Feel like Kenshi is mistakenly called easy just because of the premise of shoulder yet nobody does that well with him besides yourself and for awhile there Jeremiah.
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Baraka is easily better than every other character you've got in C tier. Not by miles, but enough.
You're right, spacing is what he's all about, so unless you can force him to come in constantly he can be extremely dangerous.
Also, he can space Cage very well. If Cage want's to get really aggressive in his approach Baraka can shut him down at every turn; He just has to be ready for it and react quickly while making solid reads in the neutral game. Likewise for the Cage player. A solid 5-5.
And Smoke gets fucked up in the corner by Baraka. :p

Rain is D tier because he can't get in or stay in, is a footsie-based character with mediocre footsie tools, bad pokes, and a giant-ass hitbox.
Damage doesn't quite make up for all that, IMO, much like NW.
Meh the MU is pretty easy still 6-4 smoke at least imo and I think thats a fair analysis of the MU.

Whats your usual tools for spacing cage besides D4? How does he do vs. max range blade charge on block? Can't he still get a F3 in on block for free and begin pressuring? I play Baraka quite a bit, but not to the extent you do. I do think he is better than everyone in that tier though with the exception of MAYBE Rain.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
agree or disagree that Kenshi has a higher skill cap than Sonya as well? Feel like Kenshi is mistakenly called easy just because of the premise of shoulder yet nobody does that well with him besides yourself and for awhile there Jeremiah.
I think its far easier to win w sonya than Kenshi

I think the evidence and proof is there

I did far better and placed far better at evo this year than most sonyas (i used mostly sonya)

It took 2 years for another kenshi to make top 8