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MK Deception Tier list Discussion Thread

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Iori9 said:
MKDA and MKSM would be the 2 best 3d MK games that would be good to use in tournys IMO

On topic: every every character broken in MKD or is that just Bo and Dai?
BRC and Dairou are God Tiers. N/S is closely behind them. MK: D is just a pathetic game overall. It almost feels like playing rock/paper/scissors because the game is a pure 50/50 mix up fest due to the lack of a wake up game.

MK:A is a little bit better but it has a lot of infinite combos. You would have to regulate all of them of course in order for the game to be playable.

I don't know much about MK:DA to give an opinion.

But I honestly would not play any 3D MK at a tournament level because there's much better out there.
 

RoGE

Noob
m2dave said:
Iori9 said:
I don't know much about MK:DA to give an opinion.

But I honestly would not play any 3D MK at a tournament level because there's much better out there.
Well, I can't argue with an opinion, but I think MKDA would be awesome in a tournament, its actually a pretty decent 3d fighting game IMO.
MKD and MKA is like a downgraded version of it in terms of gameplay.
But MKA can be fun if you play it the Legit way with a pretty balanced match.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Iori9 said:
m2dave said:
Iori9 said:
I don't know much about MK:DA to give an opinion.

But I honestly would not play any 3D MK at a tournament level because there's much better out there.
Well, I can't argue with an opinion, but I think MKDA would be awesome in a tournament, its actually a pretty decent 3d fighting game IMO.
MKD and MKA is like a downgraded version of it in terms of gameplay.
But MKA can be fun if you play it the Legit way with a pretty balanced match.

I agree, MK:DA is definitely tournament worthy IMO and MKA can also be played I believe. The thing with MKA is this, a lot of players can't play the game well without using 33, AC...I don't need that to win, a good ground along with proper use of the wake up, parrying game will get you victories just as well.

If there's ever a MK:DA tournament here in NYC some where I'm there for sure, Kenshi owns :wink:
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
regarding mkd tier list..

how does mkd unchained (psp) compares to it?
No idea, I'm sure it's based on the fixes that the Gamecube version has. But until I get a PSP, I won't be able to see where the "new" additions belong.

If Kitana still has no mids then she will obviously be near the bottom, Jax was strong, but he was mid tier and probably is still. Frost sucked, but if she has the stuff she has in MKA then she will probably be mid tier. Blaze? No clue even what he has, but he was close to the bottom in MKDA.

Who else was added?
 
make those mkdu vids hanzo!! ; )

i need to pick myself up a copy of this game for GC.

kelly - hey ; ) i think its just frost kitana blaze and jax. along with goro and shao

i know ss special cancel was gone, but did they fix bdc special cancel?? regardless, dairous ts drop is too slow and loses teleport ts/all free ts drops because of it. drops considerably, only because the game is so broke

bo is still sort of top tier with puke 2,4. a tactic not used during the days of brokeness, but it doesnt matter that they fixed his throw because he still gets 60% off his puke with 2,4. id put him somewhere at the bottom of the top tier.

1)Shujinko
2)Darrius
3)Kobra
4)NS
5)Kabal
6)Hotaru
7)Scorpion
8)BRC
9)Raiden
10)Liu Kang
11)Ashrah
12)Mileena
13)Baraka
14)Li Mei
15)Ermac
16)Dairou
17)Kenshi
18)Nightwolf
19)Sub Zero
20)Tanya
21)Sindel
22)Havik
23)Jade
24)Kira


^something like that, lol. game is beyond broke and god awful. Raiden would drop considerably due to his OTG 100% combo not working for P2, etc, etc. game is horrible

but based on the new characters, even though i havent played them

1) Goro
2) Frost
3) Blaze
4) Jax
5) Shao Kahn
6) Kitana

^ no idea where any of them would fit with the rest of the cast

later
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
Hey Check! What's up, been a looooong time man.

About the list, I revamped it due to it being based on offline play, which makes Kabal way better.

I still feel that BRC is #1 in the GameCube version (and possibly the PSP) due to his free throws and wall throw/f+3 mixup with puke and jojutsu keep away game. He is a monster!

What makes Jinko #1 on this when he's not on the PS2/Xbox?

Also, Dairou is still very good with his keep away game and even though he can't spam the TS, it is just as useful as it is in MKA. I put him under Kabal.

Havik is much better than low tier. Morning Star d+1, 3, and throw are all he needs...plus he has life up for free after a successful 3 hit. He's mid tier for sure.

Look at me all interested in this again LOL
 
Hey Check! What's up, been a looooong time man.

About the list, I revamped it due to it being based on offline play, which makes Kabal way better.

I still feel that BRC is #1 in the GameCube version (and possibly the PSP) due to his free throws and wall throw/f+3 mixup with puke and jojutsu keep away game. He is a monster!

What makes Jinko #1 on this when he's not on the PS2/Xbox?

Also, Dairou is still very good with his keep away game and even though he can't spam the TS, it is just as useful as it is in MKA. I put him under Kabal.

Havik is much better than low tier. Morning Star d+1, 3, and throw are all he needs...plus he has life up for free after a successful 3 hit. He's mid tier for sure.

Look at me all interested in this again LOL
yea man, very good to speak to you. i just saw your PM. thanks for that. ill get back to you soon, lots of stuff going on.

i always thought the tier list was based on online play, kelly. oh well, anyway:

his free throw game is 30%. and 60% off a jab/puke, easy wall 100%, his throw gives a mixup ( that right there could put him at the top )

shujinko: 100% low, 100% throw, 100% wall, 100% jab, plus safeness in 2nd stance with bdc. insane range with teleslams as counters ( leads to 100% ) freeze tradeoffs. hes just the all around character. one throw and its over is mainly why. that and a low that leads to 100%

dairou might seem good, but once you learn how to fight against dairou, ANYONE can compete with him. only difference is, you cant jumpover fireballs in mkd, and a few 20% free throws. hes always lacked damage. anyway:

1)Shujinko - i explained why already


2)Darrius - 100% throw/freethrow. just not as safe

3)Kobra - Kali b3/d3 is unbeatable

4)NS - unbreakable 40% mid, good wall game/combos, but lacks range.

5)Kabal - spin, easy 75%, safeness in hookswords. and if you wanna call his 2 in goju ryu, then spin, fireball, spin, combo as legit. then that helps too.

6)Hotaru - lava can be used like ts, 80% jab, crazyness of naginata, great movement, 50% throw. great mixups, just not safe.

7)Scorpion - d1 sword, f1 is ok, but on block its not safe from counter throws, thats why he is not above any of these characters, except maybe switching him with kabal, but i doubt thats true.

8)BRC - explained

9)Raiden - 100% jab, free throws off lows. best sweeps, good range on jab in jujutsu, and his teleport. just not very safe. might switch him with liu

10)Liu Kang - easy 50%, very safe, good mixups after his 50%, lacks range.

11)Ashrah - easy 65% off a jab counter, spin is safe, but not entirely. 35% throw, GREAT movement in first stance, plus 45% low, not safe. might switch her with mileena

12)Mileena - 4 safe, if it connects, 41, 41 otg leads to 2(2)u1, which resets the damage, and ultimatly leads to 50%. d1 is ok, she has some nice free throws. she deserves to be higher up most likely. all her popups lead to 50%, just doesnt have the best range. and sometimes her specials get in the way of her attacks. ( aka scorpions spear when trying to do f1 )

13)Baraka - Hung Gar, nuff said. best stance in the game. 25% lows. d4 in first. and fear factor in Blades. 45% combos in general. might be lower

14)Li Mei - her weapon has crazy range, free throws i guess. ( jutsu ) d1 in sword. crazy combos. mi zong variety. she might be lower

15)Ermac - first stance craziness, second stance brokeness (1) most of his free throws are avoidable. good unbreakable with insane range from teleslam counters. might be higher

16)Dairou - explained. his main thing is he lacks damage to compete

17)Kenshi - teleslam counters!!!! decent 50% combos. 30% unbreakable after first hit. 2 in tai chi is good, but lacks priority when facing a certain way. u2 from a distance is decent. 44b2 bdc is ok. he has no good lows except his throw, bf 3 is decent as well. maybe could be higher.

18)Nightwolf - u1 and d1 in Val Tudo is all i used with him. but his throw and 3 in TKD are good also. 45% combos.

19)Sub Zero - d1 shotokan bdc, easy 50%, can turtle, iceball/ice clone. 35% off dragon/jabs in general.

20)Tanya - d4 is great, good damage off combos, just no setups for it or anything. she should probably be lower

21)Sindel - FJP is ok, very fast. good combos, somewhat decent weapon, no setups, you can spam her throw, but its worthless after it hits.

22)Havik - 35% throw, nothing safe, d1 is ok. but 3 is not as good as you think. maybe online, but thats it. id use tang 112cs over it any day, if they block first 3 hits, then finish it with 34. i forgot, those are free throws, thats good! he might move up a spot or 2.

23)Jade - completly nerfed combos. branch is decent on spots. d3 kuo, but nothing really safe, somewhat decent weapon.

24)Kira - shes got a decent 40-50% combo, but its off mostly unsafe attacks. 25% low, her kiss is ok i guess. dont know what else to say about her



its been so long man, lol. i havent thought about this game for a while, because when it all comes down to it, its all about whos broken.

i honestly dont know why you would get all into this game again, lol. the blocking is completly screwed up. you cannot transition from high to low block to avoid throws and highmids, its slow and clunky, and just god awful. ( thank god for pc in mka ) that alone is why i would never play mkd again. you couldnt pay me to play it, other then doing combo videos for it.

talk to you soon, kelly ; )
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
You are so right with that list! You truly know what a Tier List is, great job.

Kira had a time infinite with the sidestep reset, same as Bo', even though it didn't work online. But that never helped her.

Here's my input:

01. Shujinko - Sooooo many options, sooooo many huge combos and setups. Teleslam hits mid and is easy to do after blocking or avoiding most of the games movelist. I agree with how Bo/Dai were nerfed.

02. Noob-Smoke - Unbreakable combos leading into 50/50 mixups that are all unbreakable combos. NO reason he shouldn't be #2.

03. Kobra - d+3, b+3, Low Fireball, Flaming Fist makes high moves hit mid which opens up a lot of options for him.

04. Darrius - 3 is not safe offline. Great throw which still leads to 50% glitch combo, which is why he is still top tier.

05. Kabal - Spin is guaranteed after blocking 90% of the games movelist. Owned.

06. Scorpion - He is better than Kabal due to him being safe from the spin, but Kabal is better than most of the cast due to unsafe moves so he stays under Kabal.

07. Bo' Rai Cho - I agree due to the throw setups are gone unless by the wall. Offline he just can't be as offensive as he can online.

08. Raiden
09. Liu Kang

10. Mileena - Way safer than Ashrah.

11. Ashrah - Huge damage setups and free throws, but unsafe.

12. Hotaru - Weapon has no high attacks, but is very fast. Way too unsafe, but high damage.

13. Baraka

14. Havik - Weapon 3 is pretty much safe using it in much the same way as Dairou makes his TS safe. Once you use it and it doesn't hit, do d+1 (which hits very fast for a low poke) and you either hit them (it does 7% AND it's a low attack!), trade hits with them, or whiff. Either way, you stop their counter and are instantly able to block or backdash out and mixup again. He has excellent 50/50 with 3, cscs, f+2, Free Throw, cscs, 112cs, mixup. Very effective, Havik is underrated and not deserving of low tier status.

15. Jade - Her ability to do huge damage very quickly and the psudo-unbreakable 40% combo, plus her weapon has huge range with 4. Teleport, Projectile Invincibility. She owns unsafe characters like Tanya. Jab potential is 70%+

16. Dairou - He still has a HUGE advantage with his keep away game. Fireball, Teleport spam to run out the clock while waiting for his TS to come back. It's like MKII Jax!

17. Ermac - Teleslam is free after blocking most attacks which setup his unbreakable combo. Great mixups.

18. Kenshi - Ermac is safer and has better setups. Weapon u+2 is so unsafe offline.

19. Tanya - She still has her glitch combo off her throw, so she should be higher due to this. Throw, plant, mixup. Her unsafeness gets her killed by Teleslams, spins, and fast characters. Even though Sub-Zero owns her, she is a better overall character than he is.

20. Nightwolf - Hatchet setups up throws which set up his very annoying mixup game.

21. Sub Zero

22. Li Mei - She has huge combos but they are very difficult to setup. Her Mi Zong pokes don't have range, they are used to stop retaliation after a messed up attack or combo so she can back out to safety. The only thing she has that works for her is Weapon 2, Throw. If her throw was a popup, then she'd be top tier LOL

23. Sindel
24. Kira

Even though it has it's share of problems (big ones too), I still have the most fun with Deception. Armageddon is fun, but it's just not the same experience for me. Maybe that's because of how little I played it.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
Some stuff on MK:

Kenshi and Ermac CANNOT follow with anything after a grounded Tele Slam, only if you already juggled your foe you can follow it but there are crappy options.

Bo doesnt follow his throw with f+3 anymore. It whiff completely.

IT SEEMS to dont have free throws, I ve tried them in VS mode and end up whiffing them. Needs to test more. Some moves can be BDC that cannot be BDC on console versions.

Thx Konqrr and Check. Impressive quick tier list mans!
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
1. Kenshi and Ermac CANNOT follow with anything after a grounded Tele Slam, only if you already juggled your foe you can follow it but there are crappy options.

2. Bo doesnt follow his throw with f+3 anymore. It whiff completely.

3. IT SEEMS to dont have free throws, I ve tried them in VS mode and end up whiffing them. Needs to test more. Some moves can be BDC that cannot be BDC on console versions.

1. What do you mean? You can't combo them after you hit with the slam?

2. Yeah, they removed the hits after Bo's throw in the Gamecube version, but they kept them for Noob and Tanya lol ...anyways, his game is pretty much keep away with puke and f+3 to throw then walk up and mixup f+3 and throw again. He has some really safe mids in Drunken Fist that he can use up close.

3. Which ones are you having trouble with?
 
You are so right with that list! You truly know what a Tier List is, great job.

Kira had a time infinite with the sidestep reset, same as Bo', even though it didn't work online. But that never helped her.

Here's my input:

01. Shujinko - Sooooo many options, sooooo many huge combos and setups. Teleslam hits mid and is easy to do after blocking or avoiding most of the games movelist. I agree with how Bo/Dai were nerfed.

02. Noob-Smoke - Unbreakable combos leading into 50/50 mixups that are all unbreakable combos. NO reason he shouldn't be #2.

03. Kobra - d+3, b+3, Low Fireball, Flaming Fist makes high moves hit mid which opens up a lot of options for him.

04. Darrius - 3 is not safe offline. Great throw which still leads to 50% glitch combo, which is why he is still top tier.

05. Kabal - Spin is guaranteed after blocking 90% of the games movelist. Owned.

06. Scorpion - He is better than Kabal due to him being safe from the spin, but Kabal is better than most of the cast due to unsafe moves so he stays under Kabal.

07. Bo' Rai Cho - I agree due to the throw setups are gone unless by the wall. Offline he just can't be as offensive as he can online.

08. Raiden
09. Liu Kang

10. Mileena - Way safer than Ashrah.

11. Ashrah - Huge damage setups and free throws, but unsafe.

12. Hotaru - Weapon has no high attacks, but is very fast. Way too unsafe, but high damage.

13. Baraka

14. Havik - Weapon 3 is pretty much safe using it in much the same way as Dairou makes his TS safe. Once you use it and it doesn't hit, do d+1 (which hits very fast for a low poke) and you either hit them (it does 7% AND it's a low attack!), trade hits with them, or whiff. Either way, you stop their counter and are instantly able to block or backdash out and mixup again. He has excellent 50/50 with 3, cscs, f+2, Free Throw, cscs, 112cs, mixup. Very effective, Havik is underrated and not deserving of low tier status.

15. Jade - Her ability to do huge damage very quickly and the psudo-unbreakable 40% combo, plus her weapon has huge range with 4. Teleport, Projectile Invincibility. She owns unsafe characters like Tanya. Jab potential is 70%+

16. Dairou - He still has a HUGE advantage with his keep away game. Fireball, Teleport spam to run out the clock while waiting for his TS to come back. It's like MKII Jax!

17. Ermac - Teleslam is free after blocking most attacks which setup his unbreakable combo. Great mixups.

18. Kenshi - Ermac is safer and has better setups. Weapon u+2 is so unsafe offline.

19. Tanya - She still has her glitch combo off her throw, so she should be higher due to this. Throw, plant, mixup. Her unsafeness gets her killed by Teleslams, spins, and fast characters. Even though Sub-Zero owns her, she is a better overall character than he is.

20. Nightwolf - Hatchet setups up throws which set up his very annoying mixup game.

21. Sub Zero

22. Li Mei - She has huge combos but they are very difficult to setup. Her Mi Zong pokes don't have range, they are used to stop retaliation after a messed up attack or combo so she can back out to safety. The only thing she has that works for her is Weapon 2, Throw. If her throw was a popup, then she'd be top tier LOL

23. Sindel
24. Kira

Even though it has it's share of problems (big ones too), I still have the most fun with Deception. Armageddon is fun, but it's just not the same experience for me. Maybe that's because of how little I played it.
kelly - wow man, thanks, i really am not good with tier lists, so that means alot!! ive been asked many times to do one for MKA. in time i will. i already know how i want to do it. i just never have time to devote myself to it juggling between... well... juggles. lol

ill give my 2 cents again to your list

1) Shujinko - ok we agree

2) NS - i put him 4th due to smoke not being able to spam his smoke clouds anymore.

3) Kobra - we agree

4) Darrius - i put darrius second because i thought his throw lead to 100% midscreen. but now second is debatable between kobra and ns. ( if they were to play, kobra would win. )

5) Kabal - agreed - and he can do over 80 with spin u3 13, spin, then the 75% (59%) again, 2 spins in a combo is debatable, so, just trying to add a bit to it.

6) Scorpion - I like... good 35% unbreakables. plus easy 50. plus double hellfires, etc

7) BRC - im cool with this list so far.. and i was wrong about him having 100% wall. he doesnt benefit from it anymore. good shit konqrr

8) Raiden - ok, maybe raiden deserves to be a little lower then i thought, he really doesnt have anything safe. but its your call.

9) Liu - agreed

10) Mileena - wise choice to switch her with ashrah, no complaints

11) Ashrah - again, the more i think about it, the more i think she should be a little lower, but whatever, moving on

12) Hotaru - i put him up there mainly because his damage and how he can cancel anything into b1 weapon to make himself safe ( not entirely from kenshi lift etc, thats the only thing stopping him from being a true top tier ). and b1 WILL hit mid if you go to duck during it. shit owns.. plus 1b1 for trickyness. his sidestep is a monster as well in PG. oh yea and um.. BLOCKBREAK!! ; )

13) Baraka - yea

14) Havik - interesting. as for 3 missing, thats the thing, its gonna miss alot and youre gonna get before hit before you can d1 if i sidestep it. just my opinion bro. sorry ; /

15) Jade - I put much lower because all her combos were nerfed in the GC version. she barely breaks 40% now.

16) Dairou - other then not being able to jump his fireballs, i just dont see much use for him. he might be even lower then this.

17) Ermac - we agree on everything. he lacks mids basically

18) Kenshi - i might put him at 16, maybe higher. after you get hit, you can jutsu and teleslam before they can block. ( ex: pi gua d1 on hit is a free teleslam for me ) he's just got nothing safe. as i said U2 at the proper range is safe from everything except long ranged attacks. which is actually how the entire game is played, as i explained to hanzo on youtube a few weeks ago.

19) Tanya - yea, a 30% unbreakable throw. plus popup, plant before it aint bad at all. 2cs is nice, but thats about it for setups. she can be played at the 17th spot level.

20) Sub Zero - he might even be higher. i mean, lets not forget versatile ; ) if hes got a lead, he can still clone turtle clone.

21) Nightwolf - heres another guy that could be played higher. he is a total fear factor. he forces you to block because of ff4, and if you block you eat a bolt. as i mentioned, u2 and d1 allll day. i wouldnt use anything else other then his throw and free throw setups. but he might be a little bit higher

22) Li Mei - youre right about her weapon. this is all pretty accurate, no debate here

23) Sindel - lacks damage. all pokes, not gonna cut it in the game of brokeness

24) Kira - d1, and 1 in first, thats about it. her sweep owns, lol


yea, we really arent including goro and kahn in here, are we? lol.. well...

Shao Kahn - db1 is pure nastyness, makes it almost impossible to penetrate him, makes him the aggressor. d1, 2cs. and 2, 1133 is nice. his throw is hard to see, but only does 5%. id put him at the 20th spot.

Goro - his weapon, thats it. but it is nice. ground pound is decent. hard to see his throw as well. he might live off his unbreakable, plus b1 ( unsafe, but pushes i think and comes out fast ) and 2, 22. been a while... dont remember his lows... he has potential.. but i dont know where to place him. maybe a spot above Shao Kahn, move shao down to 21st.



MKD was magical. it blows MKA away in that respect. mka never had that same magic. it was just good times. MKA was just... the aftermath, where MKD left off. which was not much left.

i enjoy MKA a lot more though... despite being more poorly programmed then both MKD and MKDA. Jutsu made MKD flow very well. MKA was just too uptight without it. etc. the list goes on.

i cant even say much more about it. i had a chance to play MKA offline at a friends house. ( maybe you played him on xbox before.. his ID was IndridCold99 ) it was godawful. it was fun, but wow, it just made me realize how bad the game was. id actually rather play it online if it werent for a few things ( camera turning to the side after popups, p1 being able to ss and p2 cant, wall combos not working )

anyway, like i said, i cant say much more about it.. i loved deception at the time, but mka just took me away from all that. what can i say other then that. however, it was fun to go back to deception and do some of the nastiest combos to date ( NS Double Glass, Li Mei 6 Flipkicks, and heres one you might remember we never got: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ini3fOtcPA0 )


what little you did play MKA was still the most awesome time for me with the game ; ) ill never forget it bro. Mulder Lives!!!! let me know if you still wanna do those MKA matches.

later. and thanks hanzo! much appreciated.
 
Some stuff on MK:

Kenshi and Ermac CANNOT follow with anything after a grounded Tele Slam, only if you already juggled your foe you can follow it but there are crappy options.

Bo doesnt follow his throw with f+3 anymore. It whiff completely.

IT SEEMS to dont have free throws, I ve tried them in VS mode and end up whiffing them. Needs to test more. Some moves can be BDC that cannot be BDC on console versions.

Thx Konqrr and Check. Impressive quick tier list mans!
1) lol, you told me about this, what a horrible risk/reward

2) if it whiffs... you might be doing it too early. but damn, could they have possibly fixed the free throw glitch?? because you cant throw them during the stuns, only those few glitch frames after them in which the throw SHOULD whiff, let alone be duckable.

3) i thought there was no p2 option? how would one go about testing them? wouldnt you need 2 psps or something? i dont know how psp works. when you say VS mode. do you mean arcade mode?

thanks again my good friend ; )
 
Konqrr, please check your PMs when you get a chance. i finally wrote back, and would appreciate you reading it when you have the time. its important.

later
 
I just read the Youtube comment on your Scorpion 72% combo vid, which I gotta says is great!
If you are back, then WELCOME BACK DUDE!! And hopefully we get something new from you!
 
thanks man, sorry i havent been around. im pressed for time since im moving back to NJ in a couple months. i have plenty in store, not to worry and im constantly updating youtube with some of it. its just too much at once... if i wanted i could be at 750 videos right now, thats how much i have to post.

working on it, not to worry, you will be pleasantly surprised ; )

thanks as always TheRagingStorm. Ill make a post soon for some stuff, i know its been a while.

later
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Premium Supporter
Lol my bad man. Just came across this and it was a blast from the past. Did you play online too?
No big deal man just this might be the craziest necrobump I've ever seen

Be careful with doing this as it's frowned upon
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
It's funny looking back how civil and well discussed tier conversations used to be, and then compare them to how they are now.
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
Even though 7 years old... This thread is sort of relevant because you can still play this online.