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MK Deception Tier list Discussion Thread

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Courtesy of Konqrr:

PS2/XBOX
--------
01. Dairou
02. Bo' Rai Cho
03. Noob-Smoke
04. Kobra
05. Scorpion
06. Darrius
07. Shujinko
08. Liu Kang
09. Kabal
10. Mileena
11. Raiden
12. Jade
13. Ashrah
14. Hotaru
15. Havik
16. Baraka
17. Tanya
18. Nightwolf
19. Ermac
20. Kenshi
21. Sindel
22. Li Mei
23. Sub-Zero
24. Kira

GAMECUBE:
---------
01. Bo' Rai Cho
02. Noob-Smoke
03. Kobra
04. Scorpion
05. Darrius
06. Shujinko
07. Liu Kang
08. Kabal
09. Dairou
10. Mileena
11. Raiden
12. Jade
13. Ashrah
14. Hotaru
15. Havik
16. Baraka
17. Goro
18. Tanya
19. Nightwolf
20. Ermac
21. Kenshi
22. Shao Kahn
23. Sindel
24. Li Mei
25. Sub-Zero
26. Kira
 

Konqrr

You will learn respect!
It's actually quite different now that the game has been out longer. Including various abusable tactics (not counting infinite combos).

I'll see what I can come up with soon.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Thank you Konqrr, this is the kind of stuff I intended the site be used for. Clarification is one of the most important aspects.
 
Thank you, very much Shock and Konqrr. Now when you say it's quite different, is it way off? Like for instance you have Bo rai as #1 is he alot lower now? or are the lower characters higher? Thank you for your time.
 

Konqrr

You will learn respect!
They removed the ability to sidestep to cancel the delay time between special moves for all characters. For instance, in the PS2 and Xbox versions you could puke with Bo' Rai Cho then sidestep and puke again. Not in the Gamecube as this was removed. This SEVERELY hurts Dairou.

Also, they made his best move...the Tombstone Drop, slower in execution so someone with a trained eye can see it coming and jump to avoid it possibly getting a jump kick free throw if they are close enough.

I don't have time yet to go over the tier list, but Bo will always be near the top if not THE top in MKD.
 

dreemernj

Ambassador
Administrator
Sounds like the GC version is better that PS2/Xbox if they took out the stupid sidestep resets.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
When they took out side step infinites and something else which I can't remember, they created some things that were even worse I think, Konqrr can let us know.
 

Konqrr

You will learn respect!
At first, when I compared the Gamecube version to the PS2/Xbox. The first thing I noticed was Shujinko's combo damage was limited to around 30% or so instead of 60%+. This was until Check discovered how to reset the damage and the big combos were there again. Then I saw how they removed the ability to OTG with Bo after his throw and soon discovered that throwing someone near a wall created an infinite combo by just walking up and throwing them over and over. This was, until I realized that they made it so your opponent can quick recover (QR) after the throw. This still plays in Bo's favor because the only way you can get up from the throw to avoid the infinite throwing is to use quick recover (which is done by holding d/f or d/b as you land). When you do QR, you are momentarily in a ducking state which leaves you open for Bo's f+3 move in weapon stance which gives him a Free Throw starting the mixup again. Bo is the #1 character in the Gamecube version even without his broken OTG throw damage that he has in the PS2/Xbox version. But he is #2 under Dairou in the PS2/Xbox.

I'm still working on the updated tier list, and will post it here when I finish.
 
its hard for an accurate teir list because most of the stuff is based on online play where LOTS of stuff is safe. offline its almost an mkda hybrid because being unsafe =s die and u can interrupt after 2 hits again.
 

Konqrr

You will learn respect!
PS2/XBOX
-----------
Dairou
Bo' Rai Cho
Noob-Smoke
Kobra
Darrius
Scorpion
Shujinko
Liu Kang
Mileena
Kabal
Ashrah
Raiden
Hotaru
Jade
Baraka
Nightwolf
Ermac
Havik
Sub-Zero
Kenshi
Sindel
Li Mei
Kira
Tanya

Goro and Kahn are not good characters but there has not been enough high level play to base a list from it. The only thing is that Dairou drops quite a bit due to the five second delay in between drops and the fact that is has been slowed down so you can see it coming now.

This list is up for debate, but please explain your argument. Don't just post something like "Sub is the best!"...
 

Sullen

Noob
First off, nice forum, glad to see something that seems to be dedicated to high level play. I saw the link in someones sig on Gamefaqs when browsing the MK:A forum when reading about a thread discussing Killer Instinct vs UMK3 (pretty entertaining by the way).

Anyways, my comment is about Tanya being at the bottom of the list. Now, I haven't played MK:D online since March of 05 after being burned out and since around that time the online infinent combos were made public and everyone started using them ... but I can't imagine her being at the bottom of the list.

Drill kick is an excellent move, with a free throw available right afterwards. Set this up to where you throw your opponent into a corner and you can combo them afterwards with just a simple 1,1 in weapon (or more if you want to) to do serious damage. Also, in weapon, 1,1 will hit people who are ducking and has low recovery time allowing you to just repeat if necessary, or throw if they stand and block and repeat. Invisibility also gives people a hard time, and it can work well playing defensively or offensively. I can't count how many times I took down Bo players waiting for them to come at me, or try and ground stomp only to have me anticipate by jumping forward and using drill kick. Another great plant move is back +1 in her second stance (if I remember correctly) which works great while invisible, and there is also a 3 hit combo in her second stance that ends with the plant move and hits slow so some people fall for the last hit (I forget the exact buttons for that one). Also, 2 in weapon stance seems to force your opponent to stand and stuns for a split second for you to take advantage of that. Her fireball isn't great but it can keep people at a distance if you are trying to set up a good defense. I'd say her biggest opponents are Kobra and Noob/Smoke, she is hard to play vs those characters when in the hands of a good player (but so are most of the fighters). I'm sure I could think of more stuff what I mentioned makes her a good character in my opinion. Overall I'd say she's top 12 at least, but I'd love to hear why she was moved down so much ... or maybe it was everyone else who moved up?

Side note: Are people really still playing this online? When I left the best players were probably Molson, Vlad, Yayo, and a few others I forget. They were overall better than me, but I could still take them all down with Tanya on occasion.

Side side note: While writing this I also thought of another online player. Does anyone remember Chimage, the player who imposed so many rules and regulations when you fought him and got so mad when he still lost despite his rediculous rules?
 

Konqrr

You will learn respect!
Good observation Sullen.

There is a whole lot of risk playing Tanya, as 99% of her movelist is unsafe. But she does have great free throws and invisibility plus the glitches. She doesn't belong on the bottom.

PS2/XBOX
-----------
Dairou
Bo' Rai Cho
Noob-Smoke
Kobra
Scorpion
Shujinko
Darrius
Liu Kang
Mileena
Kabal
Ashrah
Raiden
Hotaru
Jade
Baraka
Nightwolf
Ermac
Havik
Sub-Zero
Li Mei
Tanya <-- She is raped by Sub-Zero, but better than Kenshi
Kenshi
Sindel
Kira

Anyone else want to discuss the tiers in Deception?
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
After playing this broken shit for almost 2 damn years,I say Dairou and Bo > all.Between Dairou and Bo,though,I think they go even if two players with the same skill are matched up.Theoretically,Bo is easier to use,but Dairou is awfully hard to get to when used correctly.

And in an off-line tier list,I'd put Kabal much higher.His Flash would punish 90% of the moves when blocked.

But fuck it,Dairou > all!
 

Kaiba

Noob
Why is Shao Kahn so low? He has several moderate to heavy damage juggle combos that only require a few hits. I have had not too much trouble executing them on anyone I've played (including family, strangers, friends, college buddies).
 

Konqrr

You will learn respect!
Only things that change is Dairou going below Kabal due to no sidestep cancel Rapid Tombstone Drop and it comes out slower, and Bo goes under Noob-Smoke who now becomes the best. Bo loses his mixups after throw and this hurts him, but not too badly.

They fixed Shujinko's air combo damage, but you can still get around it using Mantis 111cs over and over as it gives full 25% each time you hit with it in the air. Doing throw, flip kick, 111cs, 144cs still does over 50%. Shu stays where he is.
 
Im sort of new to the forums, so I guess im a n00b. Lol. Anyways, Id like to make an arguement for Sub.

I really fail to see how he is so low on the list. I play with the guy all the time, and I think he has one of the top 10 defenses on the game. His freeze ball move is quick and has good recovery time, so you can use it from close to mid-range and get into some sort of defensive manuveur if it misses or gets blocked. Same for the Cold Shoulder. Its fast and has QR so you can also do the same. The Ice Statue is great for people that like to do Charge moves toward you alot and its quick. He may not have all the big combo damage (unless if you juggle) but he is still a great character IMO.

As for some other characters, how in the world is that joke of a MORTAL KOMBAT character Bo Rai Cho ranked number 1? Hes too slow for me, and I believe hes the worst idea for a character Midway has ever came up with. Ive heard its his Puke Puddle and other stuff that makes him so good. But IDK. And for Hotaru, I really thought before coming onto these forums that he was the worst character on the game. I believe that his attacks are too slow and his weapon is just awful. Alot of his moves are unsafe except for his projectile move. His Pi Gua stance seems to be
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
^

You need to inform yourself,buddy... :wink:

Sub-Zero's Freeze-Ball isn't even safe on block up close.Neither is the "Cold Shoulder".Ice Clone is his best special,which basically has turtling written all over it.Sub-Zero is a mid tier.He can compete with almost any character except Dairou,BRC,Kobra,and maybe a few others (Dairou and BRC being his "un-winnable" match ups).

BRC isn't slow.Switch to his weapon stance.

f+3 is a high priority mid that hits almost from half-screen away online and gives a free throw.

His throw acts as a juggle starter.Walk up in Sumo and do 1,2,CS,2 (I think) for 60% of damage.

From here on I'll let you figure out how broken he is by yourself.
 
I don't usually play with nightwolf that much, although the tier list says he's good...could I get a few pointers on why before I go on playing with him, I am not objecting, just want to know what it is about him that makes him great in this game.
BTW...yeah almost all of Tanya's moves are risky, but as far as being broken in some ways, she's still very powerful to me.
Honestly, she's the first I've mastered.
 

Konqrr

You will learn respect!
The best 50/50 mixup in the game using Smoke. The smoke cloud can be done on top of your opponent and can be used to run the clock out turtling like hell. The unbreakable combos leading to mixups on wakeup. All of the free throws which lead to at least 40% every time. He is an absolute monster and the only characters who can hold a candle to them are BRC and Dairou.

Most people think that NS is the counter to Dairou, but they are wrong.

Dairou can spam b+1 on them and they can't ever get in range to counter it.

So, up close, Dairou wins.

Far away, you think that if you jump a TSD that you can get a free smokeycut?

Wrong, Dairou can recover from the TSD with d+1 and is able to block the smokeycut. From there he can counter with 41% and regains the distance game.

So, far away, Dairou wins.

NS's only chance is to land one throw or u+4 and keep guessing right on wakeup.

Dairou wins :twisted:
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
TheRagingStorm said:
I don't usually play with nightwolf that much, although the tier list says he's good...could I get a few pointers on why before I go on playing with him, I am not objecting, just want to know what it is about him that makes him great in this game.
BTW...yeah almost all of Tanya's moves are risky, but as far as being broken in some ways, she's still very powerful to me.
Honestly, she's the first I've mastered.
Nightwolf actually isn't very good at all when compared to others.Weapon stance, 2,3 is probably his best mid that sets up his best damage since it gives a free throw on hit.But really,he lacks a 50/50 mix up lock down since he doesn't have a planting move.He doesn't have advantageous low pokes that most character have.He's also very punishable.He's a low mid tier.

You're right.Tanya's moves are very riskly.Tanya is a very good character,though.She's easily the most dangerous in corners because she can juggle off of her throw to set up huge damage or create nasty 50/50 mix ups.On an open floor (mid-screen),she's limited.Most of her mix ups end after her throw as it leaves the opponent full screen away.

MK:D is all about constant 50/50 mix ups.If your character can't lock a character down over and over again,the chances are that he or she can't compete.