Logical Suggested Balance MK9

[xxteefxx]

CSZ doesn't need any buffs but he sure as hell doesn't need any nerfs. When you post tomorrow we can discuss your points. I'm willing to hear you out. And maybe when we play in person again I can point out to you every weakness csz has

Sent from my HTC Sensation XE with Beats Audio using Tapatalk

i am pretty sure i know them haha....but wouldnt hurt to re see them or read em or hear them again. would be pleased as well!

by the way, i took a shortcut and i will show u the part with CSZ from my incoming vid. was gonna edit it in the teaser..but what the heck! i guess i will release this just for you.

it contains the following:
1- explanation of NJP~ dive kick override attribute. were fast follow up moves nullyfies the stagger effect
2- EX dive kick bug canceling EX projectile freezing effect
3- Dive kick corner hitbox issue. were it keep Cyber subzero at the same position while jumping backward. giving him no side change travel frame
4- instant EX dive kick complete safe presure. anti wake up. follow up strings and stagger
5- a quick sample on how to use IA dive kick for pressure and in combos. NOTE: not a finisher, but instead continue comboing and traping after with freezes and bomb traps


if ur not aware of any of what i mentioned, or that when u see my respond....then i would say, IA dive kick is one of the best moves in the game hands down! and it does need to be toned down especially if the arc is not going to change.

ohh well, tomorrow will post it because i need to capture the trap (which is not currently in the vid now)...i think might be fun if ur not aware of it.
but i bet u know them.....(wink*)

 

[Pagan]

One of the main issues i have with this game is that everything feel like it is -100 on block. After you finally corner a zoner you get maybe one block string against them and then they jump away. There should be more characters than just JC and Kabal who can frame trap a blocker. I say take all the super slow moves and give them frame advantage on block so they can be used as a mixup tool. Examples would be Scorpion's f3, Most the standing 4's in the game (most of them useless), Ermac's u4. It's just a way to punish someone who turtles up too much.

The more we learn about the frame data for this game (and how amateurish it looks) the less interest I have in playing it.

 

[xxteefxx]

One of the main issues i have with this game is that everything feel like it is -100 on block. After you finally corner a zoner you get maybe one block string against them and then they jump away. There should be more characters than just JC and Kabal who can frame trap a blocker. I say take all the super slow moves and give them frame advantage on block so they can be used as a mixup tool. Examples would be Scorpion's f3, Most the standing 4's in the game (most of them useless), Ermac's u4. It's just a way to punish someone who turtles up too much.

The more we learn about the frame data for this game (and how amateurish it looks) the less interest I have in playing it.

hey hey...merry xmas my friend!
hmmm...."There should be more characters than just JC and Kabal who can frame trap a blocker." . who said that Cage and kabal are the only one ?
trust me, they are many...and comes in every shape,sizes and gender too!! haha

"The more we learn about the frame data for this game (and how amateurish it looks) the less interest I have in playing it"

I feel your pain and i know what you mean. though all we can do is be patient and see what this game finishes up as.

 

[xxteefxx]

[MENTION=5716]J360[/MENTION]

hey man. sorry for takin long to respond. here's why i think EX dive kick should be slightly nerfed. i dont know if you aware of this or not, but every Cyber sub i found didnt have any idea about this tech. i am sure many others do, but i decided to dedicate part of my video to this certain tech.

the idea of the coming video that i will be releasing is: New combos, Bugs, and most importantly talks about techs, new techs, how to counter them or when they happen, and an analysis that some will hopefully like.
the analysis will be done using a hitbox shower program, so people will be able to understand even more...as well as showing exact data input.

the vid will take me a while, so i took just a quick compilation of what i had for cyber sub and made a quick teaser.

this is why i think EX dive kick should be nerfed! and omg imagnie if it did had an armor like that it would've been just godly.

Here's the video , first of all:


secondly , i shall explain in case you or anyone didnt get whats goin on. please excuse me , this vid is under production...so there are no captions, no edits...etc.

1-in general EX dive kick can be used in mid strings. the ex dive kick will 1 hti opponent causing them to stagger opponent with the same exact stun damage caused by a full EX dive kick. thus making Cyber sub at advantage.
the amazing part about this, is that it's INSTANT move. by means, it's active from the very first 3 frames of the jump....further explanation, it can stuff any poke in the game if used correctly!
this is a quick example done on reptile, using 2,1~ EX dive kick(3 not 4) and repeat
whether block or not

2-Can be done off pokes, like cr+1 and cr+3. funny thing is u can use this as if it's a poke! simply put fastest poke in the game WITH AIR hitbox. the most BS part is that this Small height, will give Cyber sub an off the ground hitbox evading any cr+3 or even cr+4.
add to that, it's as fast as starting from 3 frames from your initial jump.
also, the pressure it cause can lead to dive kick change side mix ups, which are Hard to punish unless predicted or reverse motion armor moves. Regular cr+1 and standing 1 AA cross up, wont work

3-can be done after a blocked 2,1,1+2. which is an amazing safe tool as well. for god sake it can stuff special move due to its fast startup if done correctly.
this ex dive kick on hit is COMPLETELY advantage for cyber sub to get in while opponent fully staggered. on block as well! cyber sub has both advantage on both cases of either ex dive kick(3) hit or not. making cyber sub having priority over in eveyr situation possible.

4-Can be done on crouch as u can see on raiden. further more, blockng an ex dive kick...then opponent must stand for the last hit(medium)

5-same deal, showing it on raiden to prove that it aint hard at all to pull it. in fact, very doable of every poke, string...etc.
best option in my opinion for baits and well as safe pressure are : 2,1,1+2 / 2,1 / cr+1 / cr+3


6-On raiden in corner:
b+3,2 . 2,1. IA ex dive kick(3) cr+1~ ex freeze.

you can do good combos with it too. though most of them are really for show off. though! this is a simple idea to show what it's capable off. i didnt want to put the actual combo contents because i didnt wanna spoil my video.....i am really working on it and dont wanan show anything of the major stuff now....so hopefully, please await the vid when it's done.

the idea of the combo is to show something about the freezing system. were Negative cut gravity will kill the EX freeze even if it caught the opponent. EX dive kick (3) also helps by giving this weird effect....why? i am not quite sure, but it's quite interesting thing for me....shows a lot about MK9 system


7-On nightwolf:
a pretty interesting thing...and Cyber sub is not the only char who can do that.
pretty much to explain: njp Stagger effect has the same property as if opponent on the ground and being OTGed. which is really ...weird i guess? this should not happen at all. and NJP should not have such same properties like those
example in current patch: sindel combo finisher with Air FB to OTG. Smoke Bomb OTG. Reptile x ray followed by either dash or cr+4...etc

8-On nightwolf:
another combo i didnt wanna show. a comlpete show off as well, that does 30% with a bomb reset trap at start and combo finisher. (finishing the combo with another bomb trap pressure)
the combo is done using the IAex dive kick. which on block or not will ,100% force opponent to get hit by the bomb


9-on nightwolf:

a quick example done in every char, which is dahs nuetralization. inputting down after dash and releasing will cause in making the dash to neutralise and not cause any negative Edge issue.
the example for cyber sub is done for his annoying Negative edge issue. which is dash in 3,3,2 comes out as bombs instead.
adding the crouch input will solve the issue, and will only take 1 frame extra as input. though, i think it's very rewarding to use instead of getting unwanted bombs

10-Nightwolf:

a very non related issue combo hahaha...i just felt i wanted to put it for show off.
this is not even the actual combo....THOUGH, it has the core idea. which is; Corner combo with a bomb trap finisher that Changes opponents side on wake up!
making cyber sub at full advantage to cross over safely, whether to pressure or escape safely. at the same time, cancels opponent play dead game due to bomb, cancels rolling from opponent, as well as any agrresive behavior (example reptile elbow dash)


hope that this small video showed why i suggest EX dive kick to be nerfed! cause to be honest if it's used correctly, then it can be deadly in the write hands....and so far, i only know 1 person who uses this effectivley! wonder if everybody will use it as well....because really, it's a major threat to both my mains Reptile and kenshi...and in general, a VERY VERY rewarding move.

hence it comes why i stated, nerf the jump of the arc on his dive kicks as well as make EX dive kick punishable for this specific situation....not punishable exactly, but add atleast 1 more frame to make this tool not 100% cyber sub favor

PS: IT can be done using regular dive kick as well!! if you didnt notice it in this teaser....then please await my coming video. just, soon for sure


take care josh, and hope to read your reply soon

 

[NYCj360]

Thank you for your response teef, now im just going to be honest.

That didnt display even one reason as to why it should be nerfed. The ex dive kick can be done after certain block strings but can be beat out EVERY TIME. I incorporate ex dive kicks into my pressure game and have started straying away from it after certain block strings because i get beat out and lose pressure. I do instant dive kicks perfectly as well and at times i get d1 into full combo if im playing sonya (and yes that is after 21,1+2). Also his 21,1+2 can be interrupted by armor moves, it is not safe against most characters. That ex dive kick cancel when close to the ground isnt a problem, do an incomplete string to continue pressure is broken you say? then what about sonya? what about jax? what about cage? what about sub? what about scorpion? they can all keep pressure without spending meter. CSZ LITERALLY HAS NO STRINGS THAT CAN GO INTO ONE ANOTHER TO KEEP PRESSURE. And if anyone wants to mention down 3 ill happen to let you know that it can be counter poked by d1 EVEN ON HIT.

The bomb trap on nightwolf does not need ex dive kick, all it requires is a dash in string such as 21,1+2 or 34. When facing good players that aware for your rush down strings, you will get interrupted if you do not change up your play style repeatedly during a match. For instance i play cd jr, and i try any of those dive kick setups i will waste a meter because he will either jump away or d1 me into full combo with any character he plays. The same goes for pretty much everyone at vsm that i play, they all know when they can punish and when they cannot. The matter is executing it. Thats the only response i can give for now because i gotta run so ill continue discussing this with you later.

Edit: also his jump punch cancel into dive kick is fine. Every character can cancel an air move into a special. His dive kick is considered a special because of the fact that if it wasn't he wouldn't be able to do an ex version of it.

 

[xxteefxx]

Thank you for your response teef, now im just going to be honest.

That didnt display even one reason as to why it should be nerfed. The ex dive kick can be done after certain block strings but can be beat out EVERY TIME. I incorporate ex dive kicks into my pressure game and have started straying away from it after certain block strings because i get beat out and lose pressure. I do instant dive kicks perfectly as well and at times i get d1 into full combo if im playing sonya (and yes that is after 21,1+2). Also his 21,1+2 can be interrupted by armor moves, it is not safe against most characters. That ex dive kick cancel when close to the ground isnt a problem, do an incomplete string to continue pressure is broken you say? then what about sonya? what about jax? what about cage? what about sub? what about scorpion? they can all keep pressure without spending meter. CSZ LITERALLY HAS NO STRINGS THAT CAN GO INTO ONE ANOTHER TO KEEP PRESSURE. And if anyone wants to mention down 3 ill happen to let you know that it can be counter poked by d1 EVEN ON HIT.

The bomb trap on nightwolf does not need ex dive kick, all it requires is a dash in string such as 21,1+2 or 34. When facing good players that aware for your rush down strings, you will get interrupted if you do not change up your play style repeatedly during a match. For instance i play cd jr, and i try any of those dive kick setups i will waste a meter because he will either jump away or d1 me into full combo with any character he plays. The same goes for pretty much everyone at vsm that i play, they all know when they can punish and when they cannot. The matter is executing it. Thats the only response i can give for now because i gotta run so ill continue discussing this with you later.

Edit: also his jump punch cancel into dive kick is fine. Every character can cancel an air move into a special. His dive kick is considered a special because of the fact that if it wasn't he wouldn't be able to do an ex version of it.

Hey man! no ty for replying

tell you what, as i mentioned on my suggestions...this is not that important right now as i gave it S3 rating (that if u read the ratings). though i have to tell u something that your wrong about it, u even mentioned it youself!

"The matter is executing it"

that's it.....this is a 3 framer , you understand that? by means the fastest poke in the game cannot beat it no matter what...not jax, nor sonya! though fast pokers have higher chance of gettin Csub with a cr+1 because of the "Excution matter" as well as "what string to use"
jumping is the only escape, or legit 100% escape everytime! though...dont tell me that opponent will jump over every string CS will do or even footsies or even poke, cause that's so easy to punish...it's a gimmick like any other tool, it has advantage is every situation as well. so if opponent escaped ur still safe, in fact next time they do that u will severely punish them with a good read or NJP

The bomb trap on nightwolf does not need ex dive kick, all it requires is a dash in string such as 21,1+2 or 34
it's a video, it has to has flahsy combo and different idea's....it's purely for fun, though u really didnt see the actual combo...and i dont want to spoil it . sorry !! lol


"When facing good players that aware for your rush down strings, you will get interrupted if you do not change up your play style repeatedly during a match"

this is ABC...very logic and true....but you cannot bring that to my table! tech and matchup knowledge has nothing to do with those balances...everything is equal. so this is kinda irrelevant

CSZ LITERALLY HAS NO STRINGS THAT CAN GO INTO ONE ANOTHER TO KEEP PRESSURE.

hmmm..your mistaken....how many other char are like Csub :S? most of the cast? ...except some.... so this is also invalid reason. it's a fair go compaired to others in such case, and it comes down at the end as reads and excution. making IA EX DK viable on paper and many actual situations.
you cannot always say opponent will poke in between every string of CSub, because you still have the options to fully continue them.
also, IA EX DK can be used as footsie, and COMPLETE safe footsie as well up to Sweep distance. so yes, it's a very vaible tool when used correctly.


And if anyone wants to mention down 3 ill happen to let you know that it can be counter poked by d1 EVEN ON HIT

this is to any char in the game my friend....so again, this is very random


Edit: also his jump punch cancel into dive kick is fine. Every character can cancel an air move into a special. His dive kick is considered a special because of the fact that if it wasn't he wouldn't be able to do an ex version of it.

hmmm i dont know why you brought this my friend haha...this is very un related as well to what we were saying.
if your talking about the NJP~ Dive kick, then you probably mis understood. the example on Nightwolf showed a NJP stagger punch follow by a dive kick that will OTG opponent. making it blockable even after gettin hit by NJP.
this must be removed from the game....


That ex dive kick cancel when close to the ground isnt a problem, do an incomplete string to continue pressure is broken you say? then what about sonya? what about jax? what about cage? what about sub? what about scorpion? they can all keep pressure without spending meter

hehe no josh , i meant the EX dive kick as IA tool. yes some chars can sustain their chain with a succesful pressure that it's not easily escapable with nature....though the chars you mentioned, what tools do they have that will completely and safely pressure opponent without the use of meter and /or no risk?
please give me an example cause i bet i can say an example for Csub sustained pressure as well...they all have their fair chance.
and a lot of char needs EX moves to sustain and put pressure~ or follow up...it's the nature of the game! some have it better than others....though, it doesnt make the others NOT have a viable tool use....instead they actually do, but it can be less effective when compared.

my main concern is either put more recovery on the EX dive kick, or most importantly put an arc restriction on his Jump kick. so if you dont agree with the frame recovery, then let me postpone that until u either see my video at the end of this month...or when we meet so i can show them to you 1 v 1...how does that sounds like to u ?
maybe u can change your mind.....though again, i dont see recovery as a MUST at all! i like the EX DK and i see it very rewarding for 1 meter use...though Csub is one of the characters that meter waste is not his type at all. as well as, it's a rewarding tool whether waste of meter or not in my opinion....it all comes down to meter managment, and in match control and reads + excution ofcourse of such tech

PS: IAEXDK, is not the only way....it can be done using regular one as well, though it wont hit opponent...and it has different properties and only viable against opponent who will try to stuff Csub...and in that case, IA DK will stuff them instead.



ty for posting man, and hope to read more of your post ^_^

dont forget!! this is a research as well as for fun for the fnal result that i can gather....so every post from anyone, even the HATE ones! are very important.

 

[Might Tested]

Hey man! no ty for replying

tell you what, as i mentioned on my suggestions...this is not that important right now as i gave it S3 rating (that if u read the ratings). though i have to tell u something that your wrong about it, u even mentioned it youself!

"The matter is executing it"

that's it.....this is a 3 framer , you understand that? by means the fastest poke in the game cannot beat it no matter what...not jax, nor sonya! though fast pokers have higher chance of gettin Csub with a cr+1 because of the "Excution matter" as well as "what string to use"
jumping is the only escape, or legit 100% escape everytime! though...dont tell me that opponent will jump over every string CS will do or even footsies or even poke, cause that's so easy to punish...it's a gimmick like any other tool, it has advantage is every situation as well. so if opponent escaped ur still safe, in fact next time they do that u will severely punish them with a good read or NJP

The bomb trap on nightwolf does not need ex dive kick, all it requires is a dash in string such as 21,1+2 or 34
it's a video, it has to has flahsy combo and different idea's....it's purely for fun, though u really didnt see the actual combo...and i dont want to spoil it . sorry !! lol


"When facing good players that aware for your rush down strings, you will get interrupted if you do not change up your play style repeatedly during a match"

this is ABC...very logic and true....but you cannot bring that to my table! tech and matchup knowledge has nothing to do with those balances...everything is equal. so this is kinda irrelevant

CSZ LITERALLY HAS NO STRINGS THAT CAN GO INTO ONE ANOTHER TO KEEP PRESSURE.

hmmm..your mistaken....how many other char are like Csub :S? most of the cast? ...except some.... so this is also invalid reason. it's a fair go compaired to others in such case, and it comes down at the end as reads and excution. making IA EX DK viable on paper and many actual situations.
you cannot always say opponent will poke in between every string of CSub, because you still have the options to fully continue them.
also, IA EX DK can be used as footsie, and COMPLETE safe footsie as well up to Sweep distance. so yes, it's a very vaible tool when used correctly.


And if anyone wants to mention down 3 ill happen to let you know that it can be counter poked by d1 EVEN ON HIT

this is to any char in the game my friend....so again, this is very random


Edit: also his jump punch cancel into dive kick is fine. Every character can cancel an air move into a special. His dive kick is considered a special because of the fact that if it wasn't he wouldn't be able to do an ex version of it.

hmmm i dont know why you brought this my friend haha...this is very un related as well to what we were saying.
if your talking about the NJP~ Dive kick, then you probably mis understood. the example on Nightwolf showed a NJP stagger punch follow by a dive kick that will OTG opponent. making it blockable even after gettin hit by NJP.
this must be removed from the game....


That ex dive kick cancel when close to the ground isnt a problem, do an incomplete string to continue pressure is broken you say? then what about sonya? what about jax? what about cage? what about sub? what about scorpion? they can all keep pressure without spending meter

hehe no josh , i meant the EX dive kick as IA tool. yes some chars can sustain their chain with a succesful pressure that it's not easily escapable with nature....though the chars you mentioned, what tools do they have that will completely and safely pressure opponent without the use of meter and /or no risk?
please give me an example cause i bet i can say an example for Csub sustained pressure as well...they all have their fair chance.
and a lot of char needs EX moves to sustain and put pressure~ or follow up...it's the nature of the game! some have it better than others....though, it doesnt make the others NOT have a viable tool use....instead they actually do, but it can be less effective when compared.

my main concern is either put more recovery on the EX dive kick, or most importantly put an arc restriction on his Jump kick. so if you dont agree with the frame recovery, then let me postpone that until u either see my video at the end of this month...or when we meet so i can show them to you 1 v 1...how does that sounds like to u ?
maybe u can change your mind.....though again, i dont see recovery as a MUST at all! i like the EX DK and i see it very rewarding for 1 meter use...though Csub is one of the characters that meter waste is not his type at all. as well as, it's a rewarding tool whether waste of meter or not in my opinion....it all comes down to meter managment, and in match control and reads + excution ofcourse of such tech

PS: IAEXDK, is not the only way....it can be done using regular one as well, though it wont hit opponent...and it has different properties and only viable against opponent who will try to stuff Csub...and in that case, IA DK will stuff them instead.



ty for posting man, and hope to read more of your post ^_^

dont forget!! this is a research as well as for fun for the fnal result that i can gather....so every post from anyone, even the HATE ones! are very important.

If you think Cyber Sub Zero needs nerfs, (and I'll even disregard the lack of buffs) especially with all the nerfs he was given,
you have two options:
A) Go back to Mordor you troll.
B) Go to your toilet. Promptly unload steamy bulls**t in said toilet. Stick head in toilet. Flush with extreme prejudice.

 

[Alice]

Leave Csz alone!

He is good as he is now, need no nerfs and contrary to popular belief no buffs.
I see you have the problem with his ex-divekick, right?
You see, it takes a meter. It costs something. Yes, it does.
And you don't play in training mode when you are in an actual match, and you will never-ever
do 3 ex-divekicks in such a manner.
There is need for the ex bar, it is like csz-s second lifebar you know, he can't piss it away.
This is the reason why in the Csz forums you won't find too many tech
involving what you talk about, but use it only as a punisihing tool.
That's why we have cancels, and bomb pressure there mostly.

P.s.: I think his 50/50 100% string should make you more worried.

 

[xxteefxx]

If you think Cyber Sub Zero needs nerfs, (and I'll even disregard the lack of buffs) especially with all the nerfs he was given,
you have two options:
A) Go back to Mordor you troll.
B) Go to your toilet. Promptly unload steamy bulls**t in said toilet. Stick head in toilet. Flush with extreme prejudice.

HAHAHA!!
as much as it was very offensive...but i actually liked it

ty for your post

 

[xxteefxx]

Leave Csz alone!

He is good as he is now, need no nerfs and contrary to popular belief no buffs.
I see you have the problem with his ex-divekick, right?
You see, it takes a meter. It costs something. Yes, it does.
And you don't play in training mode when you are in an actual match, and you will never-ever
do 3 ex-divekicks in such a manner.
There is need for the ex bar, it is like csz-s second lifebar you know, he can't piss it away.
This is the reason why in the Csz forums you won't find too many tech
involving what you talk about, but use it only as a punisihing tool.
That's why we have cancels, and bomb pressure there mostly.

P.s.: I think his 50/50 100% string should make you more worried.

lol (leave him alone) hey ALice. ty for replying

i agree...lets say for now that i agree that Csub doesnt need nerfs , nor buffs as you say. but if i am nerfing dive kicks in general, then Csub has no excuse.
the Nerf that i will agree to pass is his 1 frame extra recovery on EX dive kicks...let it be the same

though, what i wont agree on at all in my opinion, is the EX dive kick being completely not changed! if you think this tool is OKAY to use, then i am sorry to tell u...this can be a 3 frame jab like sonyas Dive kick and EVEN better because it's 100% safe on hit and block.

are you aware that this can beat anything in the game? or not? your only way out is a jump! so best of luck by jumping happy from CSUB strings, or in general footsies...etc. in fact, do it to every other char in that case...

-I see you have the problem with his ex-divekick, right?
You see, it takes a meter. It costs something. Yes, it does.
a lot of other stuff in the game costs meter and are very rewarding...in fact, Jax's Ground bounce loops in that case are legit? no need to remove that i guess? ....it costs meter doesnt it?
i know the situation cannot compare, but it DOES cost meter too? so can i relate?

meter or not, i dont look at it as something like that...i look at it as a tool/ Gimmick...this gimmick is by far one of the best in the game, and cannot be interruptable if executed correctly.
i only seen few so far who use this tool....and as u said urself, Csub forums are not loaded....the char in general is not very popular....that doesnt make him good or bad. it makes him un explored and people not aware of them.

what if i told you Kenshi is A tier? would u believe that? ....or if i told you sindel is another version of good kabal....would u believe that?
is it you wont because ur un familiar with what i am saying or refering to?
so part of it to blame is that some are exposed to tech and matchups and some are not....whats wrong in mentioning a very powerful tool that in my opinion can be AMAZING to use?

though this is just my opinion...you have every right to mention yours as well


-And you don't play in training mode when you are in an actual match, and you will never-ever
do 3 ex-divekicks in such a manner.

hmm i dont know how u understood it like that. but the vid was meant for this part to mean ; that it's doable ANYWHERE any time!! it's a matter of practice.
not to waste 3 meters, not to use it dumly like that....i was simply showing that, i am not a Csub player and it's fairly doable by anyone on practice.
same goes for lots of other techs in MK9 and other fighting games as well.
this section was meant to show that it's doable any time....


-[U]There is need for the ex bar, it is like csz-s second lifebar you know, he can't piss it away[/U]
when did anybody say something like that in here?
if you can find it, please show it to me
this is called meter managment....anybody in the game can have such attribute...period!

-This is the reason why in the Csz forums you won't find too many tech
involving what you talk about, but use it only as a punisihing tool.
That's why we have cancels, and bomb pressure there mostly.

your not clear, or i am kind of not following what u said in here. if u can elaborate , then please do.
though from what i understood, this is very irrelevant to the subject i am discussing

-P.s.: I think his 50/50 100% string should make you more worried.
hmmm not quite sure what u mean in here. if you have examples please post it, or if you care to explain what u meant.
other than that, then please dont mention a reason or a facted words just to write, unless if your going to explain...that if you wanted this to be a Valid reason to take in consideration for ur defense, or in general as a note (hence the PS)

ty for posting

 

[Juggs]

I don't have a specific balance suggestion or anything, just would like to state something. If a certain character has something that's either really good in general, or good against your (a certain) character, the solution is NOT to nerf that said character. The correct solution would be to buff every character or certain characters so that character that has something that's too good is not over powered anymore. I know some will say, "well why would they buff every character when they can just nerf whatever is OP about the character". Well, if the tactic or move is indeed OP, it should be at least slightly nerfed along with other characters getting buffed to deal with it. The reason is, when you start nerfing characters, you're taking away options. Once you start just taking things away from characters, you'll end up with a boring game where options are limited so that no character has anything "broken". I think that approach is completely wrong on multiple levels.

Would you want to play a game where every character is really good and there's balance, or a game where every character is only good in the context that they can all compete with one another? Why not make every character really good with tons of options instead of nerfing every character so that they aren't even that good anymore. Sure buffing every character takes more time, but so what? I'm not saying just make every character ridiculously good and it just be a broken clusterfuck. Just make everyone good and have options. This not only makes the game more competitive, fun and entertaining, it will also add depth to the game.

I don't know, I just had this thought randomly and wanted to post it. :effyou:

 

[Alice]

b22, tele, 33,ex freeze, u4 bomb cancel, dash, 33,ex freeze, jip, 2,1,1+2,njp,2,1,1+2,3,4, close bomb two possibilities: 3,4,3,4,3,4,slide, or block-bomb hits 3,4,3,4,3,4 slide. This is it.

The 1 frame you suggest to be added to it's recovery wouldn't make it any less usable, maybe stop people from using it reclessly, but really either way it wouldn't count. It's just 1 frame. if aimed badly it can be punished even now, if used in wrong times and situations it is vulnerable, but that 1 frame wouldn't make much of a difference, only making Csz players to actually learn how to use it-when to use it. However, he is not the troll of Mk9 with this tool.
You are with Kenshi right? So you know how easily you can contain him. Because for Kenshi it is easy as hell. And for many others.
Ex-dive won't stuff wakeups, and many-many other air moves have priority over it, like Kitana, Cyrax, and some others like Ermacs tele slam is just a joke.

In the other hand if an extra frame would be added to it's overall recovery it would take Csz-s mobility away, so your suggestion would be okay if in exchange Csz would get a useable teleport, since what he has now is shit.

 

[Might Tested]

lol (leave him alone) hey ALice. ty for replying

i agree...lets say for now that i agree that Csub doesnt need nerfs , nor buffs as you say. but if i am nerfing dive kicks in general, then Csub has no excuse.
the Nerf that i will agree to pass is his 1 frame extra recovery on EX dive kicks...let it be the same

though, what i wont agree on at all in my opinion, is the EX dive kick being completely not changed! if you think this tool is OKAY to use, then i am sorry to tell u...this can be a 3 frame jab like sonyas Dive kick and EVEN better because it's 100% safe on hit and block.

are you aware that this can beat anything in the game? or not? your only way out is a jump! so best of luck by jumping happy from CSUB strings, or in general footsies...etc. in fact, do it to every other char in that case...

-I see you have the problem with his ex-divekick, right?
You see, it takes a meter. It costs something. Yes, it does.
a lot of other stuff in the game costs meter and are very rewarding...in fact, Jax's Ground bounce loops in that case are legit? no need to remove that i guess? ....it costs meter doesnt it?
i know the situation cannot compare, but it DOES cost meter too? so can i relate?

meter or not, i dont look at it as something like that...i look at it as a tool/ Gimmick...this gimmick is by far one of the best in the game, and cannot be interruptable if executed correctly.
i only seen few so far who use this tool....and as u said urself, Csub forums are not loaded....the char in general is not very popular....that doesnt make him good or bad. it makes him un explored and people not aware of them.

what if i told you Kenshi is A tier? would u believe that? ....or if i told you sindel is another version of good kabal....would u believe that?
is it you wont because ur un familiar with what i am saying or refering to?
so part of it to blame is that some are exposed to tech and matchups and some are not....whats wrong in mentioning a very powerful tool that in my opinion can be AMAZING to use?

though this is just my opinion...you have every right to mention yours as well


-And you don't play in training mode when you are in an actual match, and you will never-ever
do 3 ex-divekicks in such a manner.

hmm i dont know how u understood it like that. but the vid was meant for this part to mean ; that it's doable ANYWHERE any time!! it's a matter of practice.
not to waste 3 meters, not to use it dumly like that....i was simply showing that, i am not a Csub player and it's fairly doable by anyone on practice.
same goes for lots of other techs in MK9 and other fighting games as well.
this section was meant to show that it's doable any time....


-[U]There is need for the ex bar, it is like csz-s second lifebar you know, he can't piss it away[/U]
when did anybody say something like that in here?
if you can find it, please show it to me
this is called meter managment....anybody in the game can have such attribute...period!

-This is the reason why in the Csz forums you won't find too many tech
involving what you talk about, but use it only as a punisihing tool.
That's why we have cancels, and bomb pressure there mostly.

your not clear, or i am kind of not following what u said in here. if u can elaborate , then please do.
though from what i understood, this is very irrelevant to the subject i am discussing

-P.s.: I think his 50/50 100% string should make you more worried.
hmmm not quite sure what u mean in here. if you have examples please post it, or if you care to explain what u meant.
other than that, then please dont mention a reason or a facted words just to write, unless if your going to explain...that if you wanted this to be a Valid reason to take in consideration for ur defense, or in general as a note (hence the PS)

ty for posting

I was merely disregarding your post at first, but now...this is pure ignorance, I'm sorry. Allow me to explain.

When Cyber Sub Zero closes in for pressure, and your opponent is knowledgable of your strings, you are very limited. If your opponent sees you do 21 they will immediately try to jump over you majority of the time, unless the character is like Kung Lao or Kabal, which can spin/armor through, and armor will go through even if you complete 21 1+2.
If your opponent does not jump over 21 1+2 consistently because you condition them to take the 1+2 (for characters that cannot go in between), then why the hell would anyone waste meter when they just conditioned their opponent in the first place?
After 21, it is much more meter mindful to either do a crossover, poke, or continue blockstring pressure. Think about it. What does an instant air EX divekick get you? (If the opponent does not jump over, which he will only do this if he expects the 1+2 anyway...and if you try to EX after the 1+2, you will get hit by a D1). It loses you a bar, and it gets you the same blockstring pressure you would've had anyway...

No one in their right mind would waste a bar like that. There are much better options to use meter with Cyber Sub. Frankly, if a Cyber wants to waste 3 bars for pressure, I will gladly let him throw the match. Also, the instant air EX has to be done 3 frames or quicker, (1/20th of a second) or else it'll hit them on chip. It's not a mixup, as they can easily block high after they see the first two hits connect and the blue ex ring.

Realistic buffs and nerfs for Cyber Sub: 1. Remove back to back parries for the online community. It sucks when you read it, and still get punished for trying to punish it.
2. Make the bombs freeze on hit, regardless (except for certain situations), or at least stun for block pressure like Glue mentioned in his posts.. The bomb rules he has are so gridlocked that infinites -are- prevented. And if the opponent is frozen, you cannot throw out a bomb as always. Even with the U4 option, when the opponent falls down, it is up to them to tech roll, wakeup, etc.
3. For those who feel his bombs are fine, make his teleport like Cyrax's. Safe on takeoff, punishable when he comes around. As it stands, Cyber (even the bangport), can be punished before he takesoff, while he takesoff and is offscreen, and when he comes around. That's ridiculous.

In my opinion, he needs no nerfs, and only a fixed teleport buff. Which is a fix, not a buff. His bombs need to be fixed, which would be a buff, but I won't ask for that unless a nerf trade is made.

 

[Alice]

About that post above it's not that I don't agree, because I do fully, it's just that what you said in the 2nd point is not completely true, since after 1,2,1+2 ex freeze U4 bomb cancel you can throw a bomb out, and this is the only exception for the rule. Sorry, just wanted to mention that.


Still if there are people think that Csz overpowered because of his divekicks and demand a nerf we need a tool in exchange to get in the same way we can do now. Okay, add a frame to the divekick, but make a teleport as good as Cyraxes teleport, or Human Cyraxes telepoof.
I cannot tell enough times that practically Csz-s divekick is his teleport. So if you want to make it slower you take away a good deal of mobility from him, and as a rushdown character he would suffer too much. If I do 20 divekicks in a match I do 16 of them just to move around-get in-get away.

Shit...Csz will get no nerfs and no buffs. Nrs said that they will not change him anyway again. If he will be in Mk10 (hope he will be) it is something else, we will see about that.

 

[THTB]

Give CSZ armor on EX freeze.

[MENTION=11]OJuggernautO[/MENTION], honestly, that seems like the most logical option, but considering it's impossible to tell exactly how much you are buffing a character unless it's super blatant, doing that can end up more harmful than helpful. It's actually much harder to balance by buffing based on one character than it is to balance by nerfing the issue and do tweaking elsewhere. Better to be safe than sorry, really.

Also, my idea of nerfing Kabal is this:
-Aerial Gas Blast (regular) does 5% damage on hit, 1% on block, and builds 30% less meter than it currently does on use
-No further changes

Why? Kabal no longer decimates in zoning with this. The current damage adds up heavily. With this in mind, iaGB is not AS bad. Still good, but not entirely enough to destroy a number of characters. Less meter build = less chances to escape if Kabal sticks to playing by just iaGB. Obviously, Kabal requires you to be complete on both ends to win, but NDC pressure is, a lot of times, not even why he wrecks some characters. But honestly, I don't want to take away entirely how Kabal is. I just want to balance him.

 

[PND_Mustard]

Also, my idea of nerfing Kabal is this:
-Aerial Gas Blast (regular) does 5% damage on hit, 1% on block, and builds 30% less meter than it currently does on use
-No further changes

this is probably the most sensible kabal suggestion ive seen tbh.

 

[NogunYesknife]

i think all IAFs should do 0% chip, but still build same amount of meter.

 

[xxteefxx]

[MENTION=9392]TEST YOUR MIGHT[/MENTION]

"this is pure ignorance"

well thank you so much ^_^
hey and ty for posting.
funny, through out all the post, all the mentioned reasoning to back up that EX dive kick requires no nerf, were simply ...nah, i am more respectful than this, i shall not offend others

first of before i continue, like you and many others...if ur not gonna read ATLEAST the first post of this thread carefully, then simply dont post here...and form now on i will ignore stuff like these. if your not gonna respect the words written and atleast ty to understand....then dont bother posting. and if u didnt understand, ask maybe i can re elaborate more?

instead, try to read, understand WHATS GOING on and why i am mentioning these stuff...and then argue...that if u actually wanna be a part of this research/ argument. beside that, it proves that u just here to babble some nonsense words just because u want to say so. and trust me , it can prove a lot to some eyes...but who cares

secondly, hmmmm...did u like watch the video and said or thought that this is THE WAY to do stuff? like who in hell will do 3x 2,1~ ex dive kick :S
are u aware that this vid just shows potential and it's a teaser for actual content?


"When Cyber Sub Zero closes in for pressure, and your opponent is knowledgable of your strings, you are very limited. If your opponent sees you do 21 they will immediately try to jump over you majority of the time, unless the character is like Kung Lao or Kabal, which can spin/armor through, and armor will go through even if you complete 21 1+2."

are you aware that this is also to ANY CHARACTER in the game? or is it just Csub for you?
and really, jumping over string in middle is safe now right? players are idiot enough to do em everytime and not punish that? like the easiest NJP for example?


"then why the hell would anyone waste meter when they just conditioned their opponent in the first place?"

because it's a Tool, gimick? can be used for mix up pressure? widen the variety and sustain the pressure safely whether on hit or block?
in that case, why would jade use EX low projectile in some strings?
why would Reptile EX dash for pressure in a mix up?
why would Sindel use EX IA Projectile on a finish string?
Why would kenshi Use EX SC in blocked strings?
why would Raiden use EX teleport after strings mix ups?
Why would sektor EX homing missle as footsies?

....are you serious?
it's called frame trap and put opponent for more Mix up and pressure potential....making the opponent have less option to reverse or escape.....so really, are u denying this fact?
or you wanna say it's jumpable because this is how u roll with every char? or what everyone should do i think?
funny, do it once or twice on a good player (tyin to jump) and u will regret this everytime....HEY! it's a probability! you took it as 100% ur side that opponent can escape it and that it's useless(escaping string like 2,1)...i can also say i can punish opponent 100% of the time with THIS EX dive kick or if opponent tried to jump like an idiot.
dont forget...everytime too!

....it's can mix ups and read :S ...seriously, ur stating such a weak un wanted fact by all means :S
and dont talk about technicality because it can go both ways as well. so choose ur sentences and points wisely


"After 21, it is much more meter mindful to either do a crossover, poke, or continue blockstring pressure. Think about it. What does an instant air EX divekick get you? (If the opponent does not jump over, which he will only do this if he expects the 1+2 anyway...and if you try to EX after the 1+2, you will get hit by a D1)."


again...are u good in math ?
what D+1 will counter that please? imaginary one? or just argument paper to prove a point one?

test your work before u answer. if u cant do it, then it's not my problem


"No one in their right mind would waste a bar like that."

sorry to be dis respectful, but have you ever watched a tutorial or a combo vid before in your life?
this is something not to show that "YOU HAVE TO DO IT THAT WAY"...i dont know HOW!! or never imagine that anyone will understand it that way.
simply put, i am sapming it in this part of the video to show that i am able to do it constantly and it's not hard at all once mastered


". Also, the instant air EX has to be done 3 frames or quicker, (1/20th of a second) or else it'll hit them on chip. It's not a mixup, as they can easily block high after they see the first two hits connect and the blue ex ring."


what?.......

are u aware this on block is 0 or advantage to Csub? (not sure and have to check the exact frame..but rest assure, Csub cannot be punished after opponent forced to block) ...are you aware that on BLOCK OR HIT, opponent cannot do shit and will be forced to block/guess another incoming setups?

PS: to prove that you dont know what ur saying...u cannot preform before 3 frames because there are no activation in the process of the jump :S....just FYI
so when you reply or talk, know what your saying, know ur actual facts, and then represent your argument.

also this chip that ur sad about, is advantage for Csub on block whether + frames or Zero. ..... just FYI




"1. Remove back to back parries for the online community. It sucks when you read it, and still get punished for trying to punish it."

hmmm in that case remove kratos, and lui's parries back to back as well? seriously, Non physical moves and low hit breaks this?
so....hmmmm.....it's not a good gimmick in every situation in that case were it can be severely punished if used in correctly?



"2. Make the bombs freeze on hit, regardless (except for certain situations), or at least stun for block pressure like Glue mentioned in his posts.. The bomb rules he has are so gridlocked that infinites -are- prevented. And if the opponent is frozen, you cannot throw out a bomb as always. Even with the U4 option, when the opponent falls down, it is up to them to tech roll, wakeup, etc."

I dont think NRS can do that...it's either like that or not. if the bomb will freeze in one situation it will freeze in every other (reset or not) unless if there are no gravity CUT/ Multiple use in same scale.

so people now talk that programming can do anything right? people think it's that Easy i guess?

hmmm...sorry but it's not :S i dont think this is doable based on my knowledge as well as my video gaming design/programing career... or else they would've done that to cyrax from ages...and if they did that, cyrax would've been garbage tier now.
and ofcourse, other way around with fixing that to Csub.


"3. For those who feel his bombs are fine, make his teleport like Cyrax's. Safe on takeoff, punishable when he comes around. As it stands, Cyber (even the bangport), can be punished before he takesoff, while he takesoff and is offscreen, and when he comes around. That's ridiculous."


that i am not aware off and i shall take a look at it deeply! the only sane and sensable thing u mentioned so far....thank you and i shall look into that






NOTE: the idea of this tech is:

1- Can be used as footsies wihtout any follow up
2- Can be used after ANY STRING CSUB HAS!!! PERIOD!!
3- Can be used after any POKE CSUB HAS PERIOD!!
4- Can be used in combos for pressure and sustains
5- Potential for DIFFERENT mix up, at a cost of 1 meter only, that is completely safe if done right. and leads to frame traps


did anybody try this out, or you guys just answering to just answer?? cause so far this is how i feel and see :S .... Did u actually went back to the lab and gave this tool a better shot?

are you guys aware of this? of you think EX dive kick is stuffable, then in that case any Dive kick in the game is stuffable by standing 1 as AA if done correctly or even d+1 ..... :S
are you guys are that EX dive kick is instant activity upon use on the arc? so the excution all matters on ur jump? by means it can be done as fast as 3 frames? what other move in the game has such attribute? what other move in the game has such speed?

just explain this to me please >_>.....

before you come bashnig about the EX divekick, cause at first i though you guys are aware of it...but apparently not everyone.

YES IT"S HARD!! but welcome to high level Fighting game mastery....were anything can be done! and this what makes one player a better technicians than other...welcome to the japanese fighting games style



again to end this discussion, i shall take all your POINTS very seriously. ty all for posting, REALLY! and please dont feel offended as we are discussing...though most of you have to insult of course, cause that is very easy to do.

but this helped a lot in the research. but with all due respect, this move does requires some tone down.


AM I DONE WITH THE SUGGESTIONS?? no...please read the first posts so u can understand...i am not gonna say this everytime

this is an INCOMPLETE LIST!! it gets updated every now and then. purpose? to try and fix some issues...VIABLE TO CHANGE IN EVERY ASPECT.
a fun research for everyone can have a part of it!


also, i was kind enough to put EX dive kick as S3* as on tier suggestions...but now i guess i will pump it to S*
nah am kiddin...but please be aware of the Tier lists on the suggestions and read AGAIN CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU POST

 

[Might Tested]

About that post above it's not that I don't agree, because I do fully, it's just that what you said in the 2nd point is not completely true, since after 1,2,1+2 ex freeze U4 bomb cancel you can throw a bomb out, and this is the only exception for the rule. Sorry, just wanted to mention that.

You don't need to ex freeze a guy after 211+2, you can just dash,U4xxBomb. However, the point I was making, is that even if you do cancel the bomb, it won't lead to an infinite. The bomb will land under the guy, and only create pressure. If he does not tech roll or wakeup, he'll get hit, similar to a Jax Groundpound. It's no different.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

i think all IAFs should do 0% chip, but still build same amount of meter.

Then there is no threat at all of the fireball.

Matches like Cage vs Kabal would go from being difficult to dead easy, lifelead and stand block = victory.


CSZ needs armour on the divekick rather than the freeze. Freeze = something like 30+%, divekick is 18% or so. Its supposed to be so you can stop the iAFBs, it'd give it a similar function to Cages red kick

Also what does it matter about his Ex Divekicks anyway, its not a game changing move as it is. No different to KLs Ex divekick, JCs Forceballs, Sonyas anything into MS, and definitely not as powerful as Quan Chis rune trap

 

[Alice]

You don't need to ex freeze a guy after 211+2, you can just dash,U4xxBomb. However, the point I was making, is that even if you do cancel the bomb, it won't lead to an infinite. The bomb will land under the guy, and only create pressure. If he does not tech roll or wakeup, he'll get hit, similar to a Jax Groundpound. It's no different.

Yes, I know that just wanted to tell that there is one exception for that if you freeze a char you can't drop a bomb with U4. No technical difference whatsoever it leads to the same thing.

 

[xxteefxx]

ahh alice...what in the name of the lord are you talking about.....

ammmmm.....i am so confused now that i really cant find the right words to say.
but all i can tell u is, i am not gonna help u out by elaborating and explaining. i mentioned everything alrdy, so i am not gonna take ur hand and lead u to the steps.

b22, tele, 33,ex freeze, u4 bomb cancel, dash, 33,ex freeze, jip, 2,1,1+2,njp,2,1,1+2,3,4, close bomb two possibilities: 3,4,3,4,3,4,slide, or block-bomb hits 3,4,3,4,3,4 slide. This is it.

are you aware of what you sayin in here? due to know the possibilities and probabilities?
in that case , what is easier....this nonsense up their or the IA EX dive kicks?

..... i dont know what to say to you to be honest, pleae excuse me and i apologise.


"The 1 frame you suggest to be added to it's recovery wouldn't make it any less usable, maybe stop people from using it reclessly, but really either way it wouldn't count. It's just 1 frame. i

In the other hand if an extra frame would be added to it's overall recovery it would take Csz-s mobility away, so your suggestion would be okay if in exchange Csz would get a useable teleport, since what he has now is shit."


so yay or nay? or u confused ....because i am if you are not :S


"However, he is not the troll of Mk9 with this tool.

Still if there are people think that Csz overpowered because of his divekicks and demand a nerf we need a tool in exchange to get in the same way we can do now
"

Please....dont say stuff that been actually NEVER mentioned. unless if u can find such words that i said, or other said that indicate that Csub is OP or broken.
beside that, watch your words and dont reply blindly just to be a part of the argument...simply, means nothing . sorry to be rude as well, but this is the way to approach an actual mature arguments

also, balancing nerfs and buffs, period doesnt mean the character is broken or OP or weak....etc.
just an FYI.


"You are with Kenshi right? So you know how easily you can contain him. Because for Kenshi it is easy as hell. And for many others.
Ex-dive won't stuff wakeups, and many-many other air moves have priority over it, like Kitana, Cyrax, and some others like Ermacs tele slam is just a joke."


again you dont know what your talking about...really

So you can contain kenshi easily? yes this matchup is 6 - 4...but, i am sorry....you cannot contain kenshi easily...not EVER if you fight against a good one.
and kenshi is hell easy too? really...hmmm, again what kenshi players you play against?
i dont think you know what your saying here or what is kenshi capable of....unless if have example, then shoot....beside that, dont be general cause really proves that bu dont know what your saying.

Also i fyou want a good backup....i happen to know a good friend who can back you up on this. lets bring him and let him judge about that.
@pigofthehut
based on the last Offline matches we had as well and this knowledge ofcourse toward Csub and Kenshi, as he's a very known good player....so lets so what your talking about.


Ex-dive won't stuff wakeups, and many-many other air moves have priority over it, like Kitana, Cyrax, and some others like Ermacs tele slam is just a joke."

who said wake up special? again show me where i said that please.

and many many other air moves has priority over it? i would LUV!!!! i would LUV!!! to see that...especially with the examples u mentioned....Kitana, cyrax,Ermacs.....show me the joke please alice


Shit...Csz will get no nerfs and no buffs. Nrs said that they will not change him anyway again. If he will be in Mk10 (hope he will be) it is something else, we will see about that.

i would agree in general....though i would say again, every char in the game requires a fix! and the game in general requires a fix!! deeply.
so before we cry about the characters, non of you guys mentioned the actual MAIN BASIC AND GENERAL FIXS that we actually need.

this is what we should focus on to be honest lol


in conclusion, i stand with the EX IA ex dive kick....i see that it either requires an 1 extra frame recovery, making it punishable on whiffing situations and stops the safe follow up or block. making it punishable after when used...which is VERY RELIABLE AND LOGICAL REASON.
if this is so not important to you guys (the EX IA DIVE KICK)...then really, why are you crying when i mentioned 1 extra frame recovery? u will only notice it for the IA ex dive kick in general...and wont affect him severely

or either arc restriction!! for Csub. air restriction is not severe like someone like SOnya! which she DOES NEED IT SEVERELY in my opinion especially in general any projectile in the game....though i can pass that as logic wise.

but that's my opinion! ....so ya. and again, i respect all and agree with all...this is simply a research. by means based on vote on my research on 1 v 1 meeting with people, or internet talk, matches...etc. i shall get the final outcomes.

how long will it take? please read the first post cause it will take atleast MONTHS!!

it's a part of the research and the consequences of tryin to understand and widen ones knowledge about the game


thank you for posting alice, and ty all for posting as well. looking for more replies

 

[Might Tested]

[MENTION=9392]TEST YOUR MIGHT[/MENTION]

"this is pure ignorance"

well thank you so much ^_^
hey and ty for posting.
funny, through out all the post, all the mentioned reasoning to back up that EX dive kick requires no nerf, were simply ...nah, i am more respectful than this, i shall not offend others

first of before i continue, like you and many others...if ur not gonna read ATLEAST the first post of this thread carefully, then simply dont post here...and form now on i will ignore stuff like these. if your not gonna respect the words written and atleast ty to understand....then dont bother posting. and if u didnt understand, ask maybe i can re elaborate more?

instead, try to read, understand WHATS GOING on and why i am mentioning these stuff...and then argue...that if u actually wanna be a part of this research/ argument. beside that, it proves that u just here to babble some nonsense words just because u want to say so. and trust me , it can prove a lot to some eyes...but who cares

secondly, hmmmm...did u like watch the video and said or thought that this is THE WAY to do stuff? like who in hell will do 3x 2,1~ ex dive kick :S
are u aware that this vid just shows potential and it's a teaser for actual content?


"When Cyber Sub Zero closes in for pressure, and your opponent is knowledgable of your strings, you are very limited. If your opponent sees you do 21 they will immediately try to jump over you majority of the time, unless the character is like Kung Lao or Kabal, which can spin/armor through, and armor will go through even if you complete 21 1+2."

are you aware that this is also to ANY CHARACTER in the game? or is it just Csub for you?
and really, jumping over string in middle is safe now right? players are idiot enough to do em everytime and not punish that? like the easiest NJP for example?


"then why the hell would anyone waste meter when they just conditioned their opponent in the first place?"

because it's a Tool, gimick? can be used for mix up pressure? widen the variety and sustain the pressure safely whether on hit or block?
in that case, why would jade use EX low projectile in some strings?
why would Reptile EX dash for pressure in a mix up?
why would Sindel use EX IA Projectile on a finish string?
Why would kenshi Use EX SC in blocked strings?
why would Raiden use EX teleport after strings mix ups?
Why would sektor EX homing missle as footsies?

....are you serious?
it's called frame trap and put opponent for more Mix up and pressure potential....making the opponent have less option to reverse or escape.....so really, are u denying this fact?
or you wanna say it's jumpable because this is how u roll with every char? or what everyone should do i think?
funny, do it once or twice on a good player (tyin to jump) and u will regret this everytime....HEY! it's a probability! you took it as 100% ur side that opponent can escape it and that it's useless(escaping string like 2,1)...i can also say i can punish opponent 100% of the time with THIS EX dive kick or if opponent tried to jump like an idiot.
dont forget...everytime too!

....it's can mix ups and read :S ...seriously, ur stating such a weak un wanted fact by all means :S
and dont talk about technicality because it can go both ways as well. so choose ur sentences and points wisely


"After 21, it is much more meter mindful to either do a crossover, poke, or continue blockstring pressure. Think about it. What does an instant air EX divekick get you? (If the opponent does not jump over, which he will only do this if he expects the 1+2 anyway...and if you try to EX after the 1+2, you will get hit by a D1)."


again...are u good in math ?
what D+1 will counter that please? imaginary one? or just argument paper to prove a point one?

test your work before u answer. if u cant do it, then it's not my problem


"No one in their right mind would waste a bar like that."

sorry to be dis respectful, but have you ever watched a tutorial or a combo vid before in your life?
this is something not to show that "YOU HAVE TO DO IT THAT WAY"...i dont know HOW!! or never imagine that anyone will understand it that way.
simply put, i am sapming it in this part of the video to show that i am able to do it constantly and it's not hard at all once mastered


". Also, the instant air EX has to be done 3 frames or quicker, (1/20th of a second) or else it'll hit them on chip. It's not a mixup, as they can easily block high after they see the first two hits connect and the blue ex ring."


what?.......

are u aware this on block is 0 or advantage to Csub? (not sure and have to check the exact frame..but rest assure, Csub cannot be punished after opponent forced to block) ...are you aware that on BLOCK OR HIT, opponent cannot do shit and will be forced to block/guess another incoming setups?

PS: to prove that you dont know what ur saying...u cannot preform before 3 frames because there are no activation in the process of the jump :S....just FYI
so when you reply or talk, know what your saying, know ur actual facts, and then represent your argument.

also this chip that ur sad about, is advantage for Csub on block whether + frames or Zero. ..... just FYI




"1. Remove back to back parries for the online community. It sucks when you read it, and still get punished for trying to punish it."

hmmm in that case remove kratos, and lui's parries back to back as well? seriously, Non physical moves and low hit breaks this?
so....hmmmm.....it's not a good gimmick in every situation in that case were it can be severely punished if used in correctly?



"2. Make the bombs freeze on hit, regardless (except for certain situations), or at least stun for block pressure like Glue mentioned in his posts.. The bomb rules he has are so gridlocked that infinites -are- prevented. And if the opponent is frozen, you cannot throw out a bomb as always. Even with the U4 option, when the opponent falls down, it is up to them to tech roll, wakeup, etc."

I dont think NRS can do that...it's either like that or not. if the bomb will freeze in one situation it will freeze in every other (reset or not) unless if there are no gravity CUT/ Multiple use in same scale.

so people now talk that programming can do anything right? people think it's that Easy i guess?

hmmm...sorry but it's not :S i dont think this is doable based on my knowledge as well as my video gaming design/programing career... or else they would've done that to cyrax from ages...and if they did that, cyrax would've been garbage tier now.
and ofcourse, other way around with fixing that to Csub.


"3. For those who feel his bombs are fine, make his teleport like Cyrax's. Safe on takeoff, punishable when he comes around. As it stands, Cyber (even the bangport), can be punished before he takesoff, while he takesoff and is offscreen, and when he comes around. That's ridiculous."


that i am not aware off and i shall take a look at it deeply! the only sane and sensable thing u mentioned so far....thank you and i shall look into that






NOTE: the idea of this tech is:

1- Can be used as footsies wihtout any follow up
2- Can be used after ANY STRING CSUB HAS!!! PERIOD!!
3- Can be used after any POKE CSUB HAS PERIOD!!
4- Can be used in combos for pressure and sustains
5- Potential for DIFFERENT mix up, at a cost of 1 meter only, that is completely safe if done right. and leads to frame traps


did anybody try this out, or you guys just answering to just answer?? cause so far this is how i feel and see :S .... Did u actually went back to the lab and gave this tool a better shot?

are you guys aware of this? of you think EX dive kick is stuffable, then in that case any Dive kick in the game is stuffable by standing 1 as AA if done correctly or even d+1 ..... :S
are you guys are that EX dive kick is instant activity upon use on the arc? so the excution all matters on ur jump? by means it can be done as fast as 3 frames? what other move in the game has such attribute? what other move in the game has such speed?

just explain this to me please >_>.....

before you come bashnig about the EX divekick, cause at first i though you guys are aware of it...but apparently not everyone.

YES IT"S HARD!! but welcome to high level Fighting game mastery....were anything can be done! and this what makes one player a better technicians than other...welcome to the japanese fighting games style



again to end this discussion, i shall take all your POINTS very seriously. ty all for posting, REALLY! and please dont feel offended as we are discussing...though most of you have to insult of course, cause that is very easy to do.

but this helped a lot in the research. but with all due respect, this move does requires some tone down.


AM I DONE WITH THE SUGGESTIONS?? no...please read the first posts so u can understand...i am not gonna say this everytime

this is an INCOMPLETE LIST!! it gets updated every now and then. purpose? to try and fix some issues...VIABLE TO CHANGE IN EVERY ASPECT.
a fun research for everyone can have a part of it!


also, i was kind enough to put EX dive kick as S3* as on tier suggestions...but now i guess i will pump it to S*
nah am kiddin...but please be aware of the Tier lists on the suggestions and read AGAIN CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU POST

You can't do it after every string, that all deals with the frame advantage after block string.
Regardless of that, this tech is not 'baffling.' Reo made a video of this a long time ago, and it was dropped for a reason; it was a waste of meter, competitively not viable, and goes against the reason for conditioning.

If you end 21. You have 3 options. Crossover. NJP(any anti-air). or Another string. Or you can do a fourth option, the metered iaDK. When you end 21, an opponent has options as well. Keep blocking, down 1, cross over, jump back or jump back into anti-air.

Conditioning with 211+2 forces the opponent to keep blocking, and removes all their options except blocking. Because of this, you have now opened up all your meterless options.
However, if your opponent isn't conditioned, and switches between D1 and crossing over (which is usually the case), you are ultimately guessing away your meter.
Even if you do guess between all these options your opponent has, only 2 of these options at best result in continued pressure, if the execution is done correctly, and your opponent does not have armor (and most characters now do.)

If you think your opponent is going to jump everytime, well then NJP him.
If he's going to keep blocking, then continue with blockstring pressure.
If he's going to keep blocking, there is no use for ExDk.
If he's going to cross over, there is no use for ExDk.
If he's going to D1, unless your blockstring advantage is good, there is no use for ExDk.
If he's going to jump backwards, and you do the shortrange iaSDk which is needed to do the frametrap, there is no use for it.
If the opponent teleports (Raiden), parries (Liu Kang, Cyber), armors (Kabal, Jax), there is no use for it.

And all these situations will have lost you a bar of meter for nothing.
But if you do get your frametrap if the opponent continued blocking because you conditioned him anyway, well you got the blockstring you would have gotten anyway from your conditioning...this is Godlike tech. And I will immediately hit the lab to see how I can implement this into OP nerfworthy tech. NRS won't even know what hit em'. I guarantee you, this will be nerfed by Final Round for how much it mindf**ks people during pressure. Angels will cry, black tier will be no more, and Tom Brady will completely rewrite the living guide.



Also, about my possible nerfs and buff list, (1. the back to back parry nerf), was only their as a trade (nerf for buff) for fixed bombs or a fixed teleport. Who cares about Kratos, and Liu Kang's is not the same. By the way Alice, U4 into a cancel has always been a known exception. People always do 21xxFreeze, and then go into the standard cancel punish with the 1+2.

Teef, if this tech were truely useful, top Cyber subs would be using it, and the character itself would need a tech like this, not a nerf. This "frametrap" is nowhere near as viable as JC's Ex-Projectile, or Scarlet's cancel.

By the way, that combo (in your video) where you used the divekick to go into 332xxShortbomb pressure.
It didn't even go the right way, it does roughly 30, and there is a much better harddrop-40 with short bomb pressure, and the U4 cancel pressure midscreen.

Honestly, if you come up with legitimate viable tech for Cyber, I'll be the first to congratulate you. Off the top of my head, the only gray area of new tech for Cyber would be with his corner hardrop x-ray pressure.

 

[xxteefxx]

Give CSZ armor on EX freeze.

[MENTION=11]OJuggernautO[/MENTION], honestly, that seems like the most logical option, but considering it's impossible to tell exactly how much you are buffing a character unless it's super blatant, doing that can end up more harmful than helpful. It's actually much harder to balance by buffing based on one character than it is to balance by nerfing the issue and do tweaking elsewhere. Better to be safe than sorry, really.

Also, my idea of nerfing Kabal is this:
-Aerial Gas Blast (regular) does 5% damage on hit, 1% on block, and builds 30% less meter than it currently does on use
-No further changes

Why? Kabal no longer decimates in zoning with this. The current damage adds up heavily. With this in mind, iaGB is not AS bad. Still good, but not entirely enough to destroy a number of characters. Less meter build = less chances to escape if Kabal sticks to playing by just iaGB. Obviously, Kabal requires you to be complete on both ends to win, but NDC pressure is, a lot of times, not even why he wrecks some characters. But honestly, I don't want to take away entirely how Kabal is. I just want to balance him.

hey man, ty so much for your calmness and as well as posting

"armor for EX freeze"

i thank you so much for this!!! me and tom brady were talkin about that for Subzero and cyber sub.....and i completely agree. it's in my list, and i think i mentioned that to subzero as well.


as for kabal, i think i agree with this with some slight changes...especially on recoveries.
i dont like the idea that Kabal, cyrax, and freeze having a FOREVER stun time on air and on ground...especially kabal! were he can jump twice into gas blast after a ND and then land and do a combo! this has to go!! maybe only leave it for EX dash...as well as small other tweeks here and there on recovery time

because i think NDC is one of the most rewarding tools in the games upon mastery.
but again, i like this idea..and i am currently working on kabal actually! it's just HAAARD to fully analyse characters...it takes weeks man :S

currently working on:
-Kratos
-Krugur
-Kabal
-Kano
-Noob
-Kenshi

it's a very time consumign process especially if these chars are not my main!! it forces me to read a lot, research....etc. this is why THESE KIND OF THREADS HELPS ME A LOT!!
people might not know that....but if u notice i update from time to time to see the general outcome and answers so i can enhance my research!

ty THTB.

by the way, any other comments on any other char on the list...would be great

i shall post updated version of kabal soon , as i been working on him for like 3 days now

 

[xxteefxx]

CSZ needs armour on the divekick rather than the freeze. Freeze = something like 30+%, divekick is 18% or so. Its supposed to be so you can stop the iAFBs, it'd give it a similar function to Cages red kick

i also mentioned this when i was talking to Josh here...something i am considering. so far ur the third who suggested this idea...which proves that it's sensible. though, this will make IA EX DIVE KICK OP in my opinion...and this will be a complete different case.

hmmm.... i dont know. i am tired now to be honest from all the stress and tension on replying.

ty all for replying, i had a blast! shall continue later...not today!! mind cant comprehend anymore. keep on posting please, trust me this really help the research guys...it really does!! and it will affect and will make our words heard by higher authorities....trust me i am not kiddin...and yes we are being watched i swear (coming from a VERY reliable source)

so this thread is really working. thnx again


[MENTION=9392]TEST YOUR MIGHT[/MENTION]

haha "Angels will cry, black tier will be no more, and Tom Brady will completely rewrite the living guide."

i wanna see the guide cause tell now i never seen it, period!! Brady is really one of the very few i know who have a LOT of knowledge...so i wanna see his approach toward such a guide.

i shall continue on your reply later on. ty for posting.
though something to say for now. yes i am aware of the + and - frames on the strings.

though again, EX IA DIVE KICKS are really one of the fastets move in the game! doesnt mean it's not given its good shot so far...and it doesnt mean it's DEADLY in every situation! but when used correctly, i think it's VERY useful

but for now, i shall put this on the side