General/Other - Kung Lao Kung Lao General Discussion

[Pygmy_Potato]

Either way, it's not easy to hit. Probably best off using F23 to convert afterwards instead and only using 44 after ex hat orbit.

Unless you really want to commit to grinding the timing in the lab.

 

[Eddy Wang]

He explained it in a none demeaning way. I heard it was a 2 frame and I went with that. I'll apologize and state that I don't study frame data and I just glance over it. You were right my man. I could never do the link anyways so what do I know.

I guess it is 3 frames then, thanks for explaining it.

As i said before this put a lot of people in a shitstorm @Captain I2ed is correct tho.

14+2 = 16, so its a 2 frames link.

What is messing up Youph and Strykie judgement, is that MKX frame data is displayed as pure startup, so they're counting 14f as the initial one, truth is you can only link 14 into 14 as 1 frame link, if 14 is being counted as execution instead of pure startup, which in that case, if 14f is execution, then the pure startup of this same move is 13, making a 1f link, get me?

 

[myri]

As i said before this put a lot of people in a shitstorm @Captain I2ed is correct tho.

14+2 = 16, so its a 2 frames link.

What is messing up Youph and Strykie judgement, is that MKX frame data is displayed as pure startup, so they're counting 14f as the initial one, truth is you can only link 14 into 14 as 1 frame link, if 14 is being counted as execution instead of pure startup, which in that case, if 14f is execution, then the pure startup of this same move is 13, making a 1f link, get me?

Yeah I gotcha, sorry I didn't mean to come off as rude if I did.

But yeah, point is the timing is really tight and you'll have to practice a lot if you want to get it consistent.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Yeah I gotcha, sorry I didn't mean to come off as rude if I did.

But yeah, point is the timing is really tight and you'll have to practice a lot if you want to get it consistent.

its all good, i know texts can be a bit iffy sometimes, but didn't took as rude either, we gud.

 

[Frizen]

It changed in XL patch. It used to be 2 frame link, but they took 1 frame from his 4 making it 3 frame Ive been playing him all the time and i found myself doing it almost every time when the patch dropped. Then i checked his frame data

 

[Eddy Wang]

It changed in XL patch. It used to be 2 frame link, but they took 1 frame from his 4 making it 3 frame Ive been playing him all the time and i found myself doing it almost every time when the patch dropped. Then i checked his frame data

doesn't matter, if standing four still says is 14 frames in the in game frame data, then is a 2 frame link.

 

[Frizen]

How is it 2 frames?
Hatspin gives +16 and 4 is i14.
It means u can land it on 14, 15 and 16 frame of hatspin's advantage. It even feels like a 3 frame link imo. If im somehow mistaken its the biggest placebo i ever experienced.

 

[Youphemism]

He explained it in a none demeaning way. I heard it was a 2 frame and I went with that. I'll apologize and state that I don't study frame data and I just glance over it. You were right my man. I could never do the link anyways so what do I know.

Well if I came across demeaning I apologise too, don't worry about making mistakes as we all do it at first

Either way, it's not easy to hit. Probably best off using F23 to convert afterwards instead and only using 44 after ex hat orbit.

Unless you really want to commit to grinding the timing in the lab.

Well considering 44 leads to pretty solid damage I wouldn't say it's better off using F23. It just requires some practice, find a visual/aural cue if it helps.

As i said before this put a lot of people in a shitstorm @Captain I2ed is correct tho.

14+2 = 16, so its a 2 frames link.

What is messing up Youph and Strykie judgement, is that MKX frame data is displayed as pure startup, so they're counting 14f as the initial one, truth is you can only link 14 into 14 as 1 frame link, if 14 is being counted as execution instead of pure startup, which in that case, if 14f is execution, then the pure startup of this same move is 13, making a 1f link, get me?

Our judgment isn't "messed up", this is how frames work in MK. You would be right if it were different/like in other games.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Well if I came across demeaning I apologise too, don't worry about making mistakes as we all do it at first

Well considering 44 leads to pretty solid damage I wouldn't say it's better off using F23. It just requires some practice, find a visual/aural cue if it helps.

Our judgment isn't "messed up", this is how frames work in MK. You would be right if it were different/like in other games.

nope, its exactly the same as SF4, MK9 and all others fighting game, however, every other fighting game, frame data is displayed by Execution, which adds one more extra frame to the true startup.

MKX in game frame data, shows this data in true startup not execution, so when you press a button in order to execute something you need to add that 1 frame.

Scorpion standing 3 is indeed 7f startup
but its execution is 8 frames. not 7

 

[Eddy Wang]

How is it 2 frames?
Hatspin gives +16 and 4 is i14.
It means u can land it on 14, 15 and 16 frame of hatspin's advantage. It even feels like a 3 frame link imo. If im somehow mistaken its the biggest placebo i ever experienced.

s4 startup is indeed 14
But execution is 15, if Hat spin was +14 on hit, your s4 would never punish because it would reach the opponent on the 15th frame not 14th.

try block a Kotal Kahn F2 which is -11, then try to punish with KL F2 which is also 11f startup, you will never punish even if in theory you know it looks like possible, truth is, its not, because F2 execution is 12 frames, so there is 1 frame added to it, when you press the button to execute a move.

This isn't exactly rocket science.

 

[Youphemism]

nope, its exactly the same as SF4, MK9 and all others fighting game, however, every other fighting game, frame data is displayed by Execution, which adds one more extra frame to the true startup.

MKX in game frame data, shows this data in true startup not execution, so when you press a button in order to execute something you need to add that 1 frame.

Scorpion standing 3 is indeed 7f startup
but its execution is 8 frames. not 7

So how is it the same as every other fighting game if every other fighting game does it differently???

You just said Scorpion's standing 3 has 7 frames of startup, just like the frame data, therefore Kung Lao's standing 4 has 14 frames of startup. You're contradicting yourself here by saying I'm wrong then explaining that I'm right lol.

 

[Eddy Wang]

So how is it the same as every other fighting game if every other fighting game does it differently???

You just said Scorpion's standing 3 has 7 frames of startup, just like the frame data, therefore Kung Lao's standing 4 has 14 frames of startup. You're contradicting yourself here by saying I'm wrong then explaining that I'm right lol.

You're confused.

There is this, Execution and there is true startup

Every other fighting game, when frame data is released, Devs or people that records it, ALWAYS displays by Execution, which has +1 frame added to the in game frame data because they start to count from the instant you press the button which is one frame to register the input, and then the animation starts one frame later.

The animation that starts one frame later after the input registration is what is described in the MK frame data as "startup" just because the game doesn't count, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, which is why we say startup instead of execution.

MKXL the devs didn't bother to do this, the game shows its frame data 1 frame after the game register your input data, it doesn't mean it works under different rules, its exactly the same, you just have to add that +1 to the "startup" of the in game frame data in MKXL that devs didn't bother to do it.

Scorpion Standing 3 in the in game frame data has 7 frames indeed, but that is not its execution frames, which is what you're leaving out of the equation.

If you want to test this theory, just pick any KL, put Kotal Kahn as NPC, record a blocked F2 which is -11, then try to punish with KL's F2.

Or better yet, find any character that has a -9 move, and try to punish with Scorpion s1 which is equaly 9 frames, in theory it should work, but it wont.

Hatspin~44 is a 2 frame link, if hat spin was +14 on hit, 44 would never connect because its execution is 15 frames not 14.

 

[Youphemism]

You're confused.

There is this, Execution and there is true startup

Every other fighting game, when frame data is released, Devs or people that records it, ALWAYS displays by Execution, which has +1 frame added to the in game frame data because they start to count from the instant you press the button which is one frame to register the input, and then the animation starts one frame later.

The animation that starts one frame later after the input registration is what is described in the MK frame data as "startup" just because the game doesn't count, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, which is why we say startup instead of execution.

MKXL the devs didn't bother to do this, the game shows its frame data 1 frame after the game register your input data, it doesn't mean it works under different rules, its exactly the same, you just have to add that +1 to the "startup" of the in game frame data in MKXL that devs didn't bother to do it.

Scorpion Standing 3 in the in game frame data has 7 frames indeed, but that is not its execution frames, which is what you're leaving out of the equation.

If you want to test this theory, just pick any KL, put Kotal Kahn as NPC, record a blocked F2 which is -11, then try to punish with KL's F2.

Or better yet, find any character that has a -9 move, and try to punish with Scorpion s1 which is equaly 9 frames, in theory it should work, but it wont.

Hatspin~44 is a 2 frame link, if hat spin was +14 on hit, 44 would never connect because its execution is 15 frames not 14.

But we're talking about startup, not execution. As you say they're two different things. MKXL displays the startup frames in the frame data.

Your example isn't really applicable here because that's talking about moves on block, not on hit.

 

[Eddy Wang]

But we're talking about startup, not execution. As you say they're two different things. MKXL displays the startup frames in the frame data.

Your example isn't really applicable here because that's talking about moves on block, not on hit.

Dude, it executing a move it doesn't matter if its block or hit, the concept its the same because you said 14 to 16 is 3 frames, because you're starting to count from 14 as the linking frame in the space to 16, and everyone else is counting from 15 which is the execution frames of 44.

The frame data doesn't change if its blocked or hit, is as i said before, if Hat Spin was +14 hit which should be a 1 frame link according to your theory, you would never link because 44 its actually 15, which is what counts because the move doesn't work automatically, you have to "execute it".

 

[Youphemism]

Dude, it executing a move it doesn't matter if its block or hit, the concept its the same because you said 14 to 16 is 3 frames, because you're starting to count from 14 as the linking frame in the space to 16, and everyone else is counting from 15 which is the execution frames of 44.

The frame data doesn't change if its blocked or hit, is as i said before, if Hat Spin was +14 hit which should be a 1 frame link according to your theory, you would never link because 44 its actually 15, which is what counts because the move doesn't work automatically, you have to "execute it".

I'm pretty sure what you're talking about was changed when they changed the frame data a while back, let me see if I can find the change in the patch notes.

Edit: Yep, I think this is it
"-Movelist Frame Data – Many corrections and now includes frame 0 in the startup frames"

Edit 2: You know what? It's not even important how many frames it is.

 

[RyuKazuya]

I main Jin. Though i'm not that good at the game, i will seriously play Tekken 7 tho, trying to dominate movement for now in TTT2, his gameplan i got down for the most part.

Awesome! I hope tekken 7 gets a good online mode so we can play a little^^
Jin looks amazing in t7, but i think i ll stick to my current chars. The way he is shown in t7videos i can say that he might have the most fun gameplay.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I'm pretty sure what you're talking about was changed when they changed the frame data a while back, let me see if I can find the change in the patch notes.

Edit: Yep, I think this is it
"-Movelist Frame Data – Many corrections and now includes frame 0 in the startup frames"

Edit 2: You know what? It's not even important how many frames it is.

I will say this again:
Pick KL on one side, Pick Kotal on the other, record a Kotal's F2 being blocked and block immediately afterwards, then replays it, and try to punish with KL F2, which is 11f startup, according to the frame data, Kotal's F2 is -11, you should be able to punish that.
If you manage to punish even once with a 11f move which in theory it should be possible, then you're definitely correct, if not, its okay either.

Awesome! I hope tekken 7 gets a good online mode so we can play a little^^
Jin looks amazing in t7, but i think i ll stick to my current chars. The way he is shown in t7videos i can say that he might have the most fun gameplay.

he got heavily nerfed in FR, most of his consistent fillers doesn't work anymore.
Still waiting to see what Harada will do to him, in the final version of the game.

 

[RyuKazuya]

I will say this again:
Pick KL on one side, Pick Kotal on the other, record a Kotal's F2 being blocked and block immediately afterwards, then replays it, and try to punish with KL F2, which is 11f startup, according to the frame data, Kotal's F2 is -11, you should be able to punish that.
If you manage to punish even once with a 11f move which in theory it should be possible, then you're definitely correct, if not, its okay either.


he got heavily nerfed in FR, most of his consistent fillers doesn't work anymore.
Still waiting to see what Harada will do to him, in the final version of the game.

This is so sad to hear man. I was so hyped about him when he was released. Well lets wait and see.

Now since we are still in the lao thread and i just started to play hat trick i came across some things i d like to ask you guys.

So when i got the opponent in a corner combo and end with 21 into a splat knockdown and i use the df2 hattrap, can I still break armour with 11212 ?
I always get poked out when i try to apply pressure with the traps

 

[Eddy Wang]

This is so sad to hear man. I was so hyped about him when he was released. Well lets wait and see.

Now since we are still in the lao thread and i just started to play hat trick i came across some things i d like to ask you guys.

So when i got the opponent in a corner combo and end with 21 into a splat knockdown and i use the df2 hattrap, can I still break armour with 11212 ?
I always get poked out when i try to apply pressure with the traps

slow activacting armors like predator can be broken.
use b321 if ppk are waking up with pokes to interrupt 11212.
there are better setups to break armor, but requires specific combo setups, like this one:

 

[RyuKazuya]

slow activacting armors like predator can be broken.
use b321 if ppk are waking up with pokes to interrupt 11212.
there are better setups to break armor, but requires specific combo setups, like this one:

This was one of the craziest stuff i ve seen in a while thanks for posting.
So baiscally backdashing would make most wakeups whiff and allow you to whiffpunish.
What is the frame data on 11212f df2 on block? am i plus enough to risk a standing 1?
So in the end you conditioned the opponent to respect the 112124 df2 loop?

 

[Youphemism]

This was one of the craziest stuff i ve seen in a while thanks for posting.
So baiscally backdashing would make most wakeups whiff and allow you to whiffpunish.
What is the frame data on 11212f df2 on block? am i plus enough to risk a standing 1?
So in the end you conditioned the opponent to respect the 112124 df2 loop?

No Hat Trap cancel is plus. https://testyourmight.com/threads/straight-hat-trap-cancel-frame-data.57542/
11212~straight hat is -12, 112124~straight hat is -5.

 

[RyuKazuya]

Not Hat Trap cancel is plus. https://testyourmight.com/threads/straight-hat-trap-cancel-frame-data.57542/
11212~straight hat is -12, 112124~straight hat is -5.

Wow that is damn interesting. I now realise how dangerously i was playing without knowing the frame data on his cancels.

 

[Youphemism]

Wow that is damn interesting. I now realise how dangerously i was playing without knowing the frame data on his cancels.

It's ok noone knows the frame data on the cancels except the Hat Trick community

 

[Tweedy]

I just wish Lao could move like Johnny Cage on the ground.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I just wish Lao could move like Johnny Cage on the ground.

Johnny Cage wishes he had that jump arc.