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Strategy - Hat Trick Straight Hat Trap Cancel Frame Data

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Listed below are Kung Lao's normals/strings that can be cancelled into Hat Trap and the advantage it leaves Hat Trick Lao at on block when the move is cancelled into Hat Trap. The following data is for the straight Hat Trap only (DF2), not DB2, DD2 or DF2D/DB2D.


Move: advantage when cancelled into Hat Trap on block.

1: -13
11: -13
11212: -12
112124: -5
B1: -12
B12: -9
F1: -11
D1: -18
2: -12
B2: -5
B22: -6
F2: -10
F21: -9 (changed as of 4th of October patch)
F23: -11
3: -2
B3: -15
B32: -5
B321: -7
F3: -8 (changed as of 4th of October patch)
D3: -15
4: -6
D4: -14


TL;DR Everything cancelled into DF2 is unsafe except for 112124, B2, 3 and B32. None of these are plus. NRS pls.

Update: 4th of October patch made F21~straight hat trap and F3~hat trap safe.

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Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
There you go.

When i get a trap out of some of these strings, this is one of the reasons i d4~hcb, to catch anyone mashing with the d4, and the Hat in case they're still mashing. The problem is, most of the time they're mashing crouching attacks, and we both know when HCB hits someone crouching the juggle height becomes pre-patch, you won't get much of your hard work anyway, considering getting a trap out is always minus, and you don't have a single tool to fight back since you lost your hat in the process.

Your few options are, backdash, which doesn't give you anything and makes you lose momentum on your pressure, and dive kick, which is risky and punishable on block, you can also block and apply block pressure afterwards, but no one is stopping them to grab you on a hard read, when you think they will poke and block.

@Hard Body Armour

In this video is where i started to use this stuff

once i noticed its effectiveness immediately put added to my playstyle
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Thanks for the tag.

Anyone got frame data for callbacks on whiff? I know its different to on hit and more plus
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I personally think they should shave off 6 startup frames from straight Hat Trap. That would make cancels from B12, F1, F2, F21, F23, B321 and F3 safe but minus, cancels from B22 and 4 neutral and it'd give him a few (barely) plus on block cancels from 112124 (+1), B2 (+1), 3 (+4 but it's a high) and B32 (+1). He'd still have cancels that are punishable but this would at least allow him to use incorporate more of his moves safely.
 
I do 112124 hat trap a lot less now, because the post 11212 guessing game is just better. I only do it to keep people honest after 11212 on block. The only string I really cancel hat trap into is b22, which for some reason they had to make punishable for cassie like low hat.
 
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The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
Since everybody is into hat trick all of a sudden the 112124 ex hat throw blockstring is safe against all armor reversals that are 11 frames or slower. Other reversals will trade except if your reversal happens to low profile and is 10 frames or faster like subzeros ex slide.
on the way forward or back?
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Lao should be able to spin with hat off lol
I mean his standing 1 is still a good anti-air but I agree he needs SOMETHING for defence while he's hatless. Someone suggested armour on ex callback which I don't think is that bad of an idea.
Since everybody is into hat trick all of a sudden the 112124 ex hat throw blockstring is safe against all armor reversals that are 11 frames or slower. Other reversals will trade except if your reversal happens to low profile and is 10 frames or faster like subzeros ex slide.
Yeah that's another thing, why does ex hat toss even have a gap?! I think that should be removed tbh.
 
I mean his standing 1 is still a good anti-air but I agree he needs SOMETHING for defence while he's hatless. Someone suggested armour on ex callback which I don't think is that bad of an idea.

Yeah that's another thing, why does ex hat toss even have a gap?! I think that should be removed tbh.
Armor on ex hat call back would be great, and also to be able to call hat back from a teleport..
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Armor on ex hat call back would be great, and also to be able to call hat back from a teleport..
Oh yeah that too! They also need to fix the collision path and reaction/recovery from callbacks on the ground and air, some of them are inconsistent or are mids that whiff on crouch blocking opponents BibleThump
 

just_2swift

God Fist Lao
What about giving hat trap or a MB version of it a hit box so when they touch it goes off so they can respect it. Also what about a option for close hat trap. Also what about making his teleport and his dive kick faster and have a few frames less of recovery when he doesn't have the hat?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I mean his standing 1 is still a good anti-air but I agree he needs SOMETHING for defence while he's hatless. Someone suggested armour on ex callback which I don't think is that bad of an idea.

Yeah that's another thing, why does ex hat toss even have a gap?! I think that should be removed tbh.
The gap should stay, other wise you're just turning him into a Tempest Lao anyway, so BIG NO to this, otherwise there is no point in having Hat Trap in first place, we will all just 112124~Hat-a-rang all day until they die by chip, which is really dumb. so NO.

Spin without the hat would fix his problems yes, he surely needs to be a threat without the hat, i just don't think hatless spin is one, lets not just give things to hat trick because of some of our bad habits.

1.A few plus hat traps, +3 is more than enough to frame trap.
2.Gravity float fix when HCB hits in all stances(crouch, stand, air), half of the cast not being able to avoid it with neutral crouch or crouch block too.
3. Strings should connect consistently on anyone crouch blocking
4. Instead of Hatless spin, just give him be ability to link. anything under 15f from 11212~hcb when the hat is not in collision trajectory with the opponent (like away hat trap) so he can actually extend his combos on different hat setups, on a hard read.

This IMO, will make all his current traps usable, your above away and away low traps will become real setups, he will be a threat hatless anywhere in the screen, due the new combo ability, which will reward you better for they no respect on your traps and desperately try to blow you up for placing traps.


maybe his tele should track better, being a few pixels much closer could help to react a lot to character who can avoid tele 2 or tele 3 by crouching, which is kinda dumb, specially with tele 2considering is a disjointed hitbox, but has been trading with uppercuts.

His above trap CLEARLY needs additional commands to put the had above and front to actually ocuppy the space his current trap doesn't do, same application with a back command to put the hat above and behind.


Now, giving him, a hatless spin, and no gap into hatarang, i can't see how different from tempest hat trick will actually be, when you can just do 112124~hat-a-rang block infinity since it will build far more meter than already does, can't be neutral ducked, and will be your get away of jail card in situation where you're not sure eithe they will try to retaliate or stand still.

oh I got a way with murder, ex hat
i can't get in ex hat
I got away with a big NO EX HAT
Oh shit, i'm about to die, EX HAT
Oh, i'm in the corner Ex HAT
A jump in, quick EX HAT
My overhead didn't work EX HAT
ex hat didn't work because they blocked, doesn't matter, 112124~EX HAT


Same thing can be applied to hatless spin though
 
I mean his standing 1 is still a good anti-air but I agree he needs SOMETHING for defence while he's hatless. Someone suggested armour on ex callback which I don't think is that bad of an idea.

Yeah that's another thing, why does ex hat toss even have a gap?! I think that should be removed tbh.
Youre good as long as the opponent doesnt have a 10 frame armored reversal or faster. It is fine imo. As it is right now you shouldnt cancel your strings into hat trap at all except for b22 because it makes the overhead safe.

Hat trick is a lot better when you choose what '' hat trick'' stuff to do and what stuff to not do. Hat trick is a lot better imo if you just stick to 1,11,11212 instead of canceling into 112124 hat trap everytime.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
The gap should stay, other wise you're just turning him into a Tempest Lao anyway, so BIG NO to this, otherwise there is no point in having Hat Trap in first place, we will all just 112124~Hat-a-rang all day until they die by chip, which is really dumb. so NO.

Spin without the hat would fix his problems yes, he surely needs to be a threat without the hat, i just don't think hatless spin is one, lets not just give things to hat trick because of some of our bad habits.

1.A few plus hat traps, +3 is more than enough to frame trap.
2.Gravity float fix when HCB hits in all stances(crouch, stand, air), half of the cast not being able to avoid it with neutral crouch or crouch block too.
3. Strings should connect consistently on anyone crouch blocking
4. Instead of Hatless spin, just give him be ability to link. anything under 15f from 11212~hcb when the hat is not in collision trajectory with the opponent (like away hat trap) so he can actually extend his combos on different hat setups, on a hard read.

This IMO, will make all his current traps usable, your above away and away low traps will become real setups, he will be a threat hatless anywhere in the screen, due the new combo ability, which will reward you better for they no respect on your traps and desperately try to blow you up for placing traps.


maybe his tele should track better, being a few pixels much closer could help to react a lot to character who can avoid tele 2 or tele 3 by crouching, which is kinda dumb, specially with tele 2considering is a disjointed hitbox, but has been trading with uppercuts.

His above trap CLEARLY needs additional commands to put the had above and front to actually ocuppy the space his current trap doesn't do, same application with a back command to put the hat above and behind.


Now, giving him, a hatless spin, and no gap into hatarang, i can't see how different from tempest hat trick will actually be, when you can just do 112124~hat-a-rang block infinity since it will build far more meter than already does, can't be neutral ducked, and will be your get away of jail card in situation where you're not sure eithe they will try to retaliate or stand still.

oh I got a way with murder, ex hat
i can't get in ex hat
I got away with a big NO EX HAT
Oh shit, i'm about to die, EX HAT
Oh, i'm in the corner Ex HAT
A jump in, quick EX HAT
My overhead didn't work EX HAT
ex hat didn't work because they blocked, doesn't matter, 112124~EX HAT


Same thing can be applied to hatless spin though
How would this make him like Tempest? He's currently spending a bar just to get poked by the opponent, you think that's fair/right? We spend a bar just to get meterlessly poked and they don't get hit and we've lost a bar for nothing. That's pretty useless to me. Remove the gap and make it neutral then if you're concerned it'll somehow make him like Tempest. There's no infinite. It wouldn't be 112124~ex hat toss repeat, it would be 112124~ex hat toss then both of you have to guess. Plus it probably wouldn't even build a bar back in time anyway and you need meter for conversions half the time or ex spin or breaker since if you have hat out you have no good way of getting out of substantial pressure/ 50/50s. That's why you mix it up between 112124~ex hat toss or 112124~hat trap.
Youre good as long as the opponent doesnt have a 10 frame armored reversal or faster. It is fine imo. As it is right now you shouldnt cancel your strings into hat trap at all except for b22 because it makes the overhead safe.

Hat trick is a lot better when you choose what '' hat trick'' stuff to do and what stuff to not do. Hat trick is a lot better imo if you just stick to 1,11,11212 instead of canceling into 112124 hat trap everytime.
Everyone has a move faster than 10 frames though...
And as for not cancelling anything into Hat Trap I disagree, clearly 112124, B2, B32, B22 and 4 (against non-Cassie), and 3 are all moves you can safely cancel into Hat Trap.

Well yeah but that's general Lao pressure anyway lol.
 
How would this make him like Tempest? He's currently spending a bar just to get poked by the opponent, you think that's fair/right? We spend a bar just to get meterlessly poked and they don't get hit and we've lost a bar for nothing. That's pretty useless to me. Remove the gap and make it neutral then if you're concerned it'll somehow make him like Tempest. There's no infinite. It wouldn't be 112124~ex hat toss repeat, it would be 112124~ex hat toss then both of you have to guess. Plus it probably wouldn't even build a bar back in time anyway and you need meter for conversions half the time or ex spin or breaker since if you have hat out you have no good way of getting out of substantial pressure/ 50/50s. That's why you mix it up between 112124~ex hat toss or 112124~hat trap.

Everyone has a move faster than 10 frames though...
And as for not cancelling anything into Hat Trap I disagree, clearly 112124, B2, B32, B22 and 4 (against non-Cassie), and 3 are all moves you can safely cancel into Hat Trap.

Well yeah but that's general Lao pressure anyway lol.
everyone has an armored reversal that is 10 frames or faster? And yes that is universal lao pressure, but if the hat trap stuff just isn't as effective as the universal 11212 pressure then why use it at all?

Imo it should only be used after a 21 knockdown in the corner. After a 21 knockdown throw out the hat, go into your 11 pressure and cancel into hat call back or ex hat call back.

You're asking for too much for ex hat throw to not have a gap. A really cool change for hat trick would be the behind hat trap being thrown behind the opponent instead of behind kung lao.
 
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Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
everyone has an armored reversal that is 10 frames or faster? And yes that is universal lao pressure, but if the hat trap stuff just isn't as effective as the universal 11212 pressure then why use it at all?

Imo it should only be used after a 21 knockdown in the corner. After a 21 knockdown throw out the hat, go into your 11 pressure and cancel into hat call back or ex hat call back.

You're asking for too much for ex hat throw to not have a gap. A really cool change for hat trick would be the behind hat trap being thrown behind the opponent instead of behind kung lao.
I didn't say that, I said everyone has a move that's 10 frames or faster. People can just poke out. Technically the Hat Trap stuff is just about as good as 11212 pressure because 11212 is minus but safe and so is 112124~Hat Trap. You use it to keep your opponent guessing, if they don't expect you to cancel your string into Hat Trap chances are they'll continue holding followup pressure even though they don't need to.

How is ex hat toss having no gap too much?! I don't understand you guys, would that one change suddenly make Hat Trick as good as Tempest?! That's outrageous frankly lmao. All that would do is stop him from wasting the bar going for ex hat toss. That's it. He wouldn't shoot up the tier list, he wouldn't be broken, it wouldn't be too much, it wouldn't be as good as Tempest, he would just not get poked out of it and wouldn't be wasting the bar.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
How is ex hat toss having no gap too much?! I don't understand you guys, would that one change suddenly make Hat Trick as good as Tempest?! That's outrageous frankly lmao. All that would do is stop him from wasting the bar going for ex hat toss. That's it. He wouldn't shoot up the tier list, he wouldn't be broken, it wouldn't be too much, it wouldn't be as good as Tempest, he would just not get poked out of it and wouldn't be wasting the bar.
Well his block string would be a fully loopable gapless 112124. So yeah it would be pretty strong and immediately become the core of the character. He still wouldn't have Tempest damage or the ability to end everything in -3 however, so there is no way he'd be touching Tempest. His hat set-ups would still be useful for corner set-ups and midscreen for space control and meter building.


My initial reaction was "that doesn't work" but then I stopped and thought about it, and I can see how some people might think it's counter intuitive to his traps, but I think it's exactly what the character needs to become a cohesive variation and not just a gimmick machine. This change and less scaling on his Hat callbacks and I think he'd be perfect.
 
I didn't say that, I said everyone has a move that's 10 frames or faster. People can just poke out. Technically the Hat Trap stuff is just about as good as 11212 pressure because 11212 is minus but safe and so is 112124~Hat Trap. You use it to keep your opponent guessing, if they don't expect you to cancel your string into Hat Trap chances are they'll continue holding followup pressure even though they don't need to.

How is ex hat toss having no gap too much?! I don't understand you guys, would that one change suddenly make Hat Trick as good as Tempest?! That's outrageous frankly lmao. All that would do is stop him from wasting the bar going for ex hat toss. That's it. He wouldn't shoot up the tier list, he wouldn't be broken, it wouldn't be too much, it wouldn't be as good as Tempest, he would just not get poked out of it and wouldn't be wasting the bar.
Totally forgot about the second hit being a high. I knew it wasn't that good, but forgot why. It's just my opinion that they shouldn't be focusing on ex hat toss as a blockstring. Right now it can already be used as a tool to get in, convert into higher damage off of 112124 and f23 and it is a far range whiff punisher. It already has a lot of uses imo.

The focus should be on the hat trap being + 3 after 112124 and it being -5 after b22 and it should be made practical to convert into b321 spin on hit midscreen(right now that is only consistent with ex hat call back or in the corner with d4 hat callback). If they also made hat call back a universal mid(whiffs against low hitboxes)+ behind hat trap changed to a hat trap behind the opponent, then I think it would be on par with buzz saw and maybe even better. I'm all for tempest nerfs, which is why it wouldn't be asking too much for hat trick changes.
 
Do you recognise now that Sonic was letting scar get away with murder?
I watched the set once while I was eating, dont even remember what happened. It was an online set, people shouldn't be taking it too seriously. It is sad that scar had to win an online set against sonic to get props when he has been doing well all along.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Totally forgot about the second hit being a high. I knew it wasn't that good, but forgot why. It's just my opinion that they shouldn't be focusing on ex hat toss as a blockstring. Right now it can already be used as a tool to get in, convert into higher damage off of 112124 and f23 and it is a far range whiff punisher. It already has a lot of uses imo.

The focus should be on the hat trap being + 3 after 112124 and it being -5 after b22 and it should be made practical to convert into b321 spin on hit midscreen(right now that is only consistent with ex hat call back or in the corner with d4 hat callback). If they also made hat call back a universal mid(whiffs against low hitboxes)+ behind hat trap changed to a hat trap behind the opponent, then I think it would be on par with buzz saw and maybe even better. I'm all for tempest nerfs, which is why it wouldn't be asking too much for hat trick changes.
I mean it's not the main problem with Hat Trick but I don't think there should be a meterlessly punishable gap in a move that costs meter, that just makes no sense.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
How would this make him like Tempest? He's currently spending a bar just to get poked by the opponent, you think that's fair/right?
You spend a bar to extend your damage and your corner carry, not to get safe pressure, ala tempest 11212~ex hat spin, so yeah, i think Hat-a-Rang as it is right now is pretty fair.

We spend a bar just to get meterlessly poked and they don't get hit and we've lost a bar for nothing.
Again, do not spend a bar doing Hat-a-Rang blockstrings, the tool itself its not designed to start or maintain pressure or to open someone out of the blue during blockstrings.

Hatarang can be used to get in, to win trades, and to extend damage, but not to maintain pressure. Come on man, you know this stuff.

That's pretty useless to me. Remove the gap and make it neutral then if you're concerned it'll somehow make him like Tempest.
This would make it broken, you build more than half bar with 112124 alone on block, and hatarang builds more meter on block than ex HCB does.

Give the move neutral advantage on block puts the pressure more in Hat-Tricks favor which in consequence makes the pressure loopable just like tempest does. due offense factors weighting in more into hat trick's hand if he gets this buff.
There's no infinite. It wouldn't be 112124~ex hat toss repeat, it would be 112124~ex hat toss then both of you have to guess. Plus it probably wouldn't even build a bar back in time anyway and you need meter for conversions half the time or ex spin or breaker since if you have hat out you have no good way of getting out of substantial pressure/ 50/50s. That's why you mix it up between 112124~ex hat toss or 112124~hat trap.
I don't see much of a difference in between a neutral gap where you have the power to either, ex spin, crossup, hit f2, just block, and the opponent has to make all the reads and take all the risks in the world just to get out of the pressure, your pressure because you want to open him up, they will be more willing to take the less risky option which is blocking, and that gives you more loopable pressure like a sort of pseudo infinite, there for it kills the characteristic of the variation IMO. F0xy plays exactly the same with tempest.

Don't get me wrong youph, it seems to me that you just have a more risky playstyle, 112124~ex hat toss, and 112124~trap are two different things, if you do hat-a-rang out of the blockstring pressure hoping they will mash, this is just you playing risky, if you get blocked out of this pressure you deserve to be punished, that is why you have hat trap there to make you pressure even more safer, and blow mashers in return, of course the trap could be a little less disadvantageous, but honestly, removing the gap out of Hatarang and making neutral on block is not the right way to do this.

Hat-a-rang does more damage, although i think he didn't needed the buff, it just makes Hat Trick killing his opponents way faster


I mean it's not the main problem with Hat Trick but I don't think there should be a meterlessly punishable gap in a move that costs meter, that just makes no sense.
I makes sense because your move is not made to start pressure or to make your pressure safe, its designed to give you a free combo when you land a hit, not to mix it up with hat trap hoping the opponent to poke out when they clearly blocked your pressure.

Its what i said earlier, hat-a-rang is one of the strongest tools hat trick has and shouldn't be used relentlessly.